Hyper Offense in UU

Ever tried it? Tried it once in OU with little success or enjoyment, but it's pretty damn fun down here in UU. Really enjoyable to play is, but hard to pull off.

Currently running DS Memento Uxie/LO Blaziken/DD Feraligatr/SD Drapion/RP Rhyperior/SD Leafeon. They seem to compliment most counters well, and tanks like Registeel are easily handled.

Most teams seem to be pretty straightforward, set up screens then switch out to begin the sweep. I've been told to normally not stat up too early and just muscle my way and damage most of the team early. Most people let their Milotic and Registeel tanks die so early it puts them at a graaaaave disadvantage towards late game. If they attempt to send out a sweeper, or successfully revenge kill, I send Uxie back in to Memento for a hopefully free turn for a stat boost if they haven't tried to set up on their own.

One lead I can't stand though is Omastar. If he gets just SR and one set up spikes up, I'm pretty much backed into a corner. Can't set up screens or SR, and it takes two turns to scare him out with Leafeon. Entry hazards in general annoy me. Priority moves are also the bane of my existence. They're incredibly common in UU, and I see now why HO is rare here down in these parts. One guy packed 5 PM's on one team.


Anyone got any experience with HO in UU? How do you handle priority move users?
 

shrang

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I played HO last round just comprising of the most whored sweepers there were. The team was pretty much Dugtrio/LO Moltres/SD Kabutops/RP Yache Torterra/CM Shuca Raikou/LO Electrode. It got me voting rights, so it isn't that horrible.
 

shrang

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Yeah. Froslass was a big pain back then, and I wanted something to prevent her putting down two layers while being able to set up Stealth Rock by itself. Dugtrio @ Focus Sash with SR/EQ/Stone Edge/Sucker Punch was the set. He's kind of like the Aerodactyl of UU leads. He could also come back later to revenge Raikou if hazards weren't up.
 
Hm, interesting. Not much of a use now since Omastar's more common and Froslass is gone.

A lot of people have told me to go that route and ditch the DS lead, but I just find it and Memento so damn useful.
 
I mainly play HO, because I'm just too darned impatient for stall teams, and every attempt at a balance team involves me slowly but steadily replacing walls and pivots with face-punchers.

For priority, it really helps to have priority of your own, and some bulky-er pokes. A ghost or rock/steel is nice for enemy Ambipom, and on one team, I found myself slotting in Specs Milotic (which is decent) because all of my other teamies would be 2HKO'd (which is no longer the case, thank goodness). Other than that, there's honestly not a whole lot to do about priority, but I'm sure someone's got something better to say.

Also, you don't have to have stat-uppers in every single slot, and you probably shouldn't. There are some pokes like Alakazam and Sharpedo that don't need to boost in order to cut things down. (Speaking of Sharpedo, Jolly @ Orb/Sash, Aqua Jet/Crunch/Earthquake/Waterfall [or taunt, for a lead sharky]. Do it.) Anyways, one of the most valuable assets for a HO team is a fast scarfer. By "fast," we're talking 90+ base. A Scarf Primape, for example, can punch Swellow in the face, deal sweep-ending damage to a +2 speed Torterra, and gank rain sweepers before they can respond. Lacking defensive mons, your fast scarfer can be the only thing stopping a super-fast sweeper from demolishing your team.

Some other pokes I've found to be highly effective in HO are:
- SD Sceptile (almost always gets a couple kills)
- MixDoom (likewise)
- Sub + 3 Alakazam
- SD Scyther (can 6-0 at a moment's notice)
Altaria's also good and runs ResTalk well, so it can absorb status. Tauros is a good fast scarfer, and Swellow is a given. Kabutops, Nidoking, and Machoke are underrated leads, Hypno can counter Venusaur, and you can run RP Regice, which rarely works but is priceless when it does.
 
Also, you don't have to have stat-uppers in every single slot, and you probably shouldn't. There are some pokes like Alakazam and Sharpedo that don't need to boost in order to cut things down. (Speaking of Sharpedo, Jolly @ Orb/Sash, Aqua Jet/Crunch/Earthquake/Waterfall [or taunt, for a lead sharky]. Do it.) Anyways, one of the most valuable assets for a HO team is a fast scarfer. By "fast," we're talking 90+ base. A Scarf Primape, for example, can punch Swellow in the face, deal sweep-ending damage to a +2 speed Torterra, and gank rain sweepers before they can respond. Lacking defensive mons, your fast scarfer can be the only thing stopping a super-fast sweeper from demolishing your team.
Isn't using a scarfer or any choicer detrimental to the overall point of HO? All the opponent has to do is switch in to resist whatever scarfed move you're trapped on, forcing you to switch, and thus losing your momentum.
 
The point of HO is really just to punch everything in the face as hard and fast as you can. Scarfers serve a utility role - you generally don't sweep with them, but it may be easier to make the opponent switch or to counter specific threats with them. You're right, though, that they can cost you momentum as easily as they can give it to you, especially against stall teams, where the opponent has something they can switch in.

Fast scarfers and trickscarfers are very useful against offense and stall, respectively, and can serve as general OH CRAP buttons. If you can eliminate the resists of a certain move your scarfer has, they can also clean up lategame effectively. I guess it comes down to personal preference, but I hate being helpless against rain/swellow/sceptile unless I sacrifice my priority users.
 
I've found Substitute attackers really valuable on HO. Since most sweepers are incredibly frail something like Alakazam can use the Sub and is strong enough to punch holes into teams without a boost, like Narulyg said. Hitmonlee is also really effective with a Sub+3 attacks set as is Torterra and Rhyperior.

Choice users on stall teams definitely need to offer some sort of utility to the team to pick up their slack. Scyther and Primeape can U-turn to scout, for example. Or as Narulyg said they should be able to Trick it to cripple the opponent.

Immunities are extremely helpful and that's why the Croakdoom combo is effective. With these immunities they're given a lot more opportunities to switch in.
 

shrang

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Thund pretty much nailed it right there. Choice users on HO should either: i) Be able to U-Turn and scout, ii) Have other utility options (Trick), iii) Hit so hard that the opponent isn't going to set up and sweep easily anyway (Rhyperior) or iv) Late game clean when walls have been crippled and weakened (Specs Kazam, Specs Electrode, Specs Manectric). If they don't have these traits, one really needs to think long and hard about using them on an HO team, since one setup from the opponent could well be gg.

Rain can be problem to HO, but there is absolutely no reason why you can't just stick something like a Jolly SD Kabutops or Qwilfish (Who can sweep in their own right without Rain) on your team to at least check them when things get tough.

The success of HO isn't usually attributed how good the sweepers are. You can group together 6 of the best sweepers and easily be 6-0'd. The synergy of the team is THE most important aspect in an HO team. If SD Jumpluff fits the bill the best (I'm not advocating this), so be it, don't run SD Venusaur or Leafeon when they are in general, better.
 
MoP said:
wtf does heavy offense mean? torterra rhyperior hariyama regirock milotic? they all take like base 100+ from gk/lk what else is heavy...steelix?
Offense is offense..

If I ignore the fact that you are using a made up term to describe "a very offensive team"...

I personally think the most effective forms of offense is just to stack spikes, stealth rock, use Explosion, and then sweep with 3-4 LO attackers (maybe a scarfer as an "oh shit" button vs other offense). Statting up isn't even necessary most of the time. Personally I used Sharpedo, Magmortar, RP Torterra, and Swellow. I rarely ever set up Torterra unless I'm against another frail offensive team.
 
My most successful UU offense team was actually an NU team (but since NU battles are hard to find I used it on the ladder a lot). Sash Golem, SR / Spinner Sandslash, SubRoost Articuno, LO Rapidash, LO Tauros, Mixed Wall Breaking Luxray. Basically Golem would cause early damage, hopefully Exploding on something important and often killing / maiming SR users and spin blockers, which helped Slash. Then Tauros was the main offensive weapon, with Rapidash covering a lot of threats that he couldn't. If Luxray could take out a wall or two, one of the sweepers could find an opening. SubRoost Cuno doesn't sound very offensive, but it provided some defense while still being able to hold momentum (plus it can rape weakened teams if the sweep doesn't carry to the end).

If I had to analyze why the team worked out well, (I'm terrible at figuring these things out before I make a team) I would put it this way: two similar sweepers, with at least one covering most of the other's counters, and a wall breaker to clear holes so that the opponent can no longer defend against both sweepers. This only covers three pokemon, so using this formula there's a lot of extra room to makes things work for the sweepers / wall breaker you choose. Eventually I changed Rapidash and Slash to Arcanine and Donphan, after realizing that the team was good enough I may as well make it a UU team.

One thing that worked well for the team that I can't really recommend without being extremely specific is that having two Intimidate users really helped defensively without resorting to walls that might lose momentum. Another thing I noticed is that having a Flash Fire pokemon is extremely beneficial to a physically-based team, as being able to turn Will-o-wisp into a setup-free boost really helps to keep momentum, and even the lowly Rapidash could do serious damage with a boost (but Arcanine even more so). Also, I would highly recommend Tauros for any UU offense team. Intimidate, high speed and good power, and a somewhat useful immunity make it pretty solid. I used the LO set, but I've been impressed by CB with Double Edge from other players.
 
I've been experimenting with a Pinsir lead.

DAYUM.

This guy is a beast. With focus sash, Adamant, and full Atk EV's, he's 2HKOing almost every lead/anti-lead guaranteed, greatly flipping the tables on the opponent early in the match for me to easily set up.

But as recommended above, I've been also trying out some non stat upping Pokemon (Mixdoom and Subkazam to be exact). They do their jobs pretty well, and the type coverage that Houndoom shares with Toxicroak is a godsend as well.
 
I actually don't even use entry hazards on my hyper offense team. I didn't realize this at first, but the team worked so well, that I didn't change it. I lead with an NP Persian (Ambipom doesn't have Hypnosis). They think it is the regular Ambipom imitator lead, switch in something which gets Hypnosis'd (it actually hits most of the time) then I set up an NP and annihilate. I've swept whole teams with this thing. My other MVP is Specs Venusaur. In most of the games I've played, the switch-in took more than 50% from Leaf Storm. I never even need HP Ground that often, since taking Leaf Storms will wear down Registeel quickly. Late-game cleaning is extremely simple with Sludge Bomb. Specs Sceptile is a nice replacement too, but that little bit of bulk Venusaur has can be a life-saver on a hyper offense team if they have a scarfer.

Hyper offense is my favorite playstyle for the sheer power. And the fact that I hate stall.
 
I've been experimenting with a Pinsir lead.

DAYUM.

This guy is a beast. With focus sash, Adamant, and full Atk EV's, he's 2HKOing almost every lead/anti-lead guaranteed, greatly flipping the tables on the opponent early in the match for me to easily set up.

But as recommended above, I've been also trying out some non stat upping Pokemon (Mixdoom and Subkazam to be exact). They do their jobs pretty well, and the type coverage that Houndoom shares with Toxicroak is a godsend as well.
I was always wondering how Pinsir as a lead would work; I've been using Mesprit 'cause he's been so effing effective on my offensive team(Stealth Rocks, T Wave, Grass Knot, Psychic), but I had been wondering about lead SR Pinsir as well.
 
The only time I had success with a HO team was in OU. It worked to an extent (better then any other team I've made for OU). Maybe I should try a HO team in UU.
 
Why do people bitch about the term "Hyper Offense"? It is distinct from simply a very offensive team and has been bastardized by people. There are fairly strict rules involved in creating something that can truly be called a HO team. The first rule is NO CHOICE SCARFERS.

Choice Items in general are heavily discouraged, but fast sweepers with attack-boosting choice items are occasionally viable. Even at that you would never want to use something with leaf storm as your end-game sweeper. You want moves that have sustainability, like SpecsJolt Thunderbolt for another OU example.

In its purest form, hyper offense is a Hazard lead that can set up a sweeper with screens, encore, etc. + 5 setup sweepers that attempt to overload the counters on the opposing team. I usually have a dual screener like Azelf/Uxie as the lead, and then you want 3-4 things with similar counters and 1-2 things that force out the similar counters. Using an OU example, if you have a team that is walled by Rotom, you need something like Tyranitar to force it out so that you will be able to keep it from simply healing up again before you set something else up. I refer to these as "transition" mons. Good sets of counters to beat are special walls, bulky waters, steel and rock types, grass types, etc. The best teams tend to materialize when you find a set of mons that are collectively on nearly every team but counter multiple threats for a team. You then use as many semi-broken sweepers as possible to tear a whole in that specific set of mons.

If you are going to post in this thread, please don't talk about choice scarfers. You bastardize the concept and confuse people like Heysup into thinking that Heavy Offense is no different than any other offense team. Heavy Offense teams stop threats with natural speed, priority, or by making it impossible for things to set up on you in the first place, NOT with choice scarves. Locking yourself into an attack is a great opportunity for the opponent to set up on you or heal up the damage your other sweepers have worked so hard to do.

I personally haven't really tried HO in UU since stall is so good, however it seems to have potential. I actually thing that there is more potential on the special side though. Swords Dancers like Toxicroak, Absol, etc. are really cool but all of the Nasty Plotters seem so potent and are difficult for either offense or stall teams to beat.

Metagross66 showed me a cool combo with Explosion Haunter and NP Mismagius that really tears holes in opposing teams. I don't think he really fleshed out the team too well but his initial idea is quite solid. It reminded me a lot of the Greek RMT team.

I have also been considering using a fun team consisting of a ton of Rock Polishers. Hippopotas can set up rocks and throw out sand, Golem/Regirock can Explode on walls, and Rhyperior, Torterra, and/or Aggron can sweep at the end. The difficulty would be using the correct transition mons. I could see Toxicroak being strong there.
 
Why do people bitch about the term "Hyper Offense"? It is distinct from simply a very offensive team and has been bastardized by people. There are fairly strict rules involved in creating something that can truly be called a HO team. The first rule is NO CHOICE SCARFERS.
This is why. Because people get pedantic and create arbitrary definitions. No choice scarves, but specs/bands are OK? Are you serious? What kind of random BS is that? That's every bit as rediculous as the guy who insisted that a HO team must have Dual Screens and 5 Life Orbers. What if I put a Scarf Rampardos on there, who has the speed and power of most banders? Am I not Hyper Offensive enough for you? If I have a lead, 4 setup sweepers, and a fast scarfer, am I really not Hyper Offensive? The presense of the scarfer somehow makes me NOT hyper offensive, even if the single non-offensive or stat-boosting move on my team is Stealth Rock?

Hyper: Adjective. Seriously or obsessively concerned; fanatical.
Offensive: Smacking the poop out of stuff.

If I'm seriously concerned with smashing my opponents' faces in, that's enough for me, and that should be enough for anyone. Overclassification like this is why Smogon gets its reputation for elitist dullards. If you're more offensive than not, you're offensive. If you're more defensive, call it stall. If you are so offensive that there's nothing besides offense on your team, go ahead and call it Hyper Offense. Honestly, unless a team is obviously stally, and someone wants to call it Hyper Offense, go ahead and let them, because Hyper is just a freaking adjective. Or maybe I should just call my team, which has no spinner to keep momentum, and has one poke that won't take big damage from Ambipom's Fake Out "Super Offensive" and pack my bags, because my experience with this Super Offensive team is 100% irrelevant to this Hyper Offensive-only discussion. You see how silly that is? Seriously, I doubt that my teambuilding advice has caused Heysup, who has forgotten more about UU than most people hope to learn, to go into paroxysms of confusion.

Anyways, another good lead to consider is a special Ambipom. Timid with Taunt/NP/Swift/Water Pulse can actually tear holes in a lot of things. Against unprepared opponents, you can net easy kills on Rhyperior and the like, as well as making them think you're using a BP chain, but even against opponents who know you're running a special set it can be pretty effective. It's no Alakazam, but a +2 STAB Technicion LO Swift is gonna leave a mark, and Water Pulse has the side-effect of causing confusion.

Leafeon is also a pretty cool guy (unless his base 130 defense somehow makes me not Hyper Offensive) and pretty much anything that walls it can be circumvented by passing a SD and/or Wish to another member of your team. One-off passes are awesome.
 
I've been trying out a Leafeon(BP/SD/Wish/Leaf Blade @ Leftovers), Arcanine(MS/FB/ES/Toxic-Flashfire @ Life Orb), Toxicroak(SD/Cross Chop/Sucker Punch/Stone Edge-Shedskin @ Lum Berry) core.
I'm still trying to work out a supporting cast for them, though they do a good job at covering one another's weaknesses, in my opinion.
'Croak is a bit frail, so receiving a SD boost and some Wish recovery is nice, and Arcanine is good at smashing up to prepare for a sweep.
 
@Anachronism: Why is everything you said about HO's definition the case? Why couldn't it be the other way around? Where is the big HO conference that decided all this?
 
ive got an offence team up to be rated now. I didn't call it hyper offence because it actually does have a wall and a scarfer, but the wall certainly knows how to attack and my scarfer can trick it away. I guess i called it offence because the two most important pokemon on my team, blaziken and sharpedo, are offencive powerhouses. Blaziken punches holes in everything while sharpedo comes in after with his superior speed to clean up the mess.
 
I firmly believe that Anachronism is the only one in this thread that can differentiate Heavy Offense from the offense that you are talking about.

You guys do realize that Hyper Offense is based upon "wearing down your counters", right? Fuck switching, sacrifice yourself and let something else finish it off. Keep doing this till your opponent runs out of checks for this type of attacker, and then finally one of them sweeps.

In UU, I've found that the type of HO available isn't based upon stat-up sweepers like it is in OU. Nothing can wall that well, since everything either lacks the recovery or lacks the stats. Just plain out attacking has generally been the best way to go about with this. My biggest success came with a team with ~3 fire types that wore down on specific counters(Moltres, Blaziken, and I think Camerupt) with just general attacking: usually the opponent ran out of fire resists fast enough, enabling me to sweep with one of them.
 
My defintion of hyper offense: Tons of fast, powerful, but frail sweepers that will rip stuff to shreds. The sweepers can either be set-up or band/specs. I made a mistake before by saying the extra bulk Venusaur has is helpful on hyper offense; that isn't true. Hyper offense should not have bulk, Sceptile should replace Venusaur to be true hyper offense. I don't care what anyone says, this is how I interpret hyper offense.

I prefer NP Persian over HP Ambipom because of Hypnosis. Persian has the choice to use Taunt, but it uses Hypnosis because it's better. They have the same base speed, and while Ambipom has superior stats, the difference is negligible.
 
The things I mentioned above are the things that tend to create the most successful Heavy Offense teams. Using a scarfer is generally a bad idea because it forces you to switch and can allow opposing setups, which is death for a team without a defensive backbone. Choice Band and Specs are in most cases discouraged, but strong fast attackers that keep up the pressure even while locked into one attack are okay. A Choice Banded attack is often too difficult to set up on even for resists, so this is why the attack-boosting choice items aren't as discouraged as scarves.

This isn't something that I am just now making up guys. Heavy Offense has a strict definition because it is a playstyle in and of itself! If we were having a Heavy Stall discussion and you talked about how Infernape was excellent on stall, then wouldn't people lol at you? Well I feel the same way when people talk about Choice Scarves in a Heavy Offense thread!

I am not just making this up on the spot. There have been entire threads devoted to this strategy. It is quite an interesting thought problem really. It is an attempt to take a chaotic game and simplify it to the most basic level. It becomes similar to a game of chess. The term Heavy Offense exists because it describes a specific team that is as purist as it gets. You use things that maintain the pressure and overwhelm counters. If there isn't a common team goal of wearing down specific walls to effectively blank out the rest of the opposing team then the team shouldn't be classified as Heavy Offense. Classification is important. The terms "offense" and "defense" aren't specific enough to truly explain the variety of team styles and ideologies there are.

I apologize for coming off as rude, but wouldn't it annoy you if someone made a Heavy Stall thread and talked about Blaziken?

I would also like to mention that I like where Lonewolf9196 is headed but bulk isn't exactly a detriment to a heavy offense team. The first priority is destroying specific counters. It is often necessary to be able to tank a hit or 2 to accomplish this. That is one of the reasons that dual screens are so popular on Heavy Offense. They allow otherwise moderately bulky mons to easily outlast their would-be counters.
 
There is no "strict definition" of the term, it is completely arbitrary and made up by people who don't feel the term "offense" suffices when it very clearly does. The term "Hyper Offense" makes more sense then "Heavy Offense", but really it's all just a style of offense. I've used Pokemon to wear down my opponent's walls then sweep with another Pokemon. That's just offense. I've set up Spikes and Stealth Rock while using powerful sweepers to keep my opponent from setting up and spinning while eventually breaking through their core. That's just offense. I've used Dual Screen Pokemon with a number of stat up users. That is still offense.

However, I'll disregard this ill-defined term and respond to your Choice Scarf comment.

Choice Scarf users are actually a must in my experience. I mean unless you look losing to every team with Rock Polish Torterra / Aggron / Rhyperior, every Swellow, and everything faster that OHKOes all of your "Hyper" frail Pokemon. I personally almost always make sure I have something like Choice Scarf Rotom unless I'm using CB Azumarill, Absol, Cloyster, Blaziken or others that happen to cover all of the faster threats that would otherwise walk through my team. I also need to consider that if I'm using only frail Offensive Pokemon, that these Pokemon will faint so I need some insurance. A Choice Scarfer is just that.
 

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