Gen 4 DPP OU Viability Rankings III

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MANNAT

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What the fuck is this thing doing in C+? Cresselia is one of the most dangerous Pokemon out there. Sure it gets trapped by Tyranitar, but Dugtrio can trap that thing and CM sets can win games on their own after Dugtrio does its job. Not to mention that this thing is actually a really solid check to a myriad of Pokemon like Lucario, Breloom, Infernape, Flygon, etc. that are huge threats in the current metagame. Obviously Cresselia has its fair share of flaws, but it's way beyond the dogshit in C+. Putting it in like B rank along with the likes of Milotic/Raikou/Duggy seems a lot more appropriate than where it is right now, hell it could even be considered for B+. Obviously it can be used without Dugtrio support, as showcased by people using it without Dug in SPL, so you can't even use the "dug support is mandatory" argument anyways.
 
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Been a while. Cress needs to be moved up, no doubt, and I'll probably do an overhaul consistent with my post here soon

Stuff like Steelix, Donphan, Hitmontop, etc. is fucking horrible and there's an incredible amount of garbage mons down in the C ranks. At least in the SM ranking everything on the VR has some sort of niche as opposed to some of the crap down here.
I solemnly object. Donphan is great defensively and has a bit of variety in his set outside EQ/RS - SR, Shard, Assurance, Head Smash, Protect, Roar, Knock Off; not easy to fit all of these moves but they're all more than usable. It has seen success on quite a few teams. Steelix is niche but definitely usable - one of the best Jirachi switchins, resists Tyranitar's STABs, eats up Dragonite's CB Outrage like nothing, Electric/Toxic immune, Explosion. Hitmontop has its own subset of stall alongside Gyarados for double Intimidate stuff. C- is pretty lame for the most part but everything above is fine, I think, unless you had more specific queries
 
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I've been working on exploiting this mon for the best part of the last 5 months. I hope that I have displayed over the past few months why Dusknoir should not be that low. Offensive sets > the defensive crap people been using for the past centuries. It has without a doubt been fun using it but more importantly, I and other people have won way more games than I thought I would. It isn't an ALL-TIME star mon but it also isn't a Pokemon that you have to really try hard to fit it in your team and I have seen it take several common team archetypes by storm with alot of games almost being identical just because of the shitload of Mons it can check. From spin blocking in a pinch, to forcing opposing teams to reveal their hard hitter (Band Ape / Gyarados / Dragonite / Tyranitar), to picking off Rotom-W and Gengar (this monster fucking nukes them both its unreal). it can take a hit or two as well and forces alot of switches. It also allows you to trade off with annoyances like Zapdos and Heatran if you play it right allowing Scizor and metagross to lategame clean.

my friends who I shared this set and team initially have also had good success with it and I've achieved ridiculous records (something like 53-6 initially with this vs all kinds of players)


I humbly request this going up to C rank.
 

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Jirachee

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Here are some discussion points I thought of from playing the meta within the past year or so:

Scizor: A+ => A
I don't find Scizor to be on the same level as the other A+ mons anymore to be honest. The bulky SD sets tend to struggle with all the random Fire coverage flying around on Steel resists (Fire Punch Jirachi, Heat Wave Zapdos, Overheat Rotom) and even when you don't face those there's usually something that'll give it trouble, like an Ape or Tran for example. Oh and by the way, when do you ever see Choice Zors anymore?

Hippowdon: A => A-
It's tough for Hippowdon to thrive in this meta that's all about aggression when it gives free entry to some of the most dangerous threats. Breloom, CB Gyarados, etc. are things you never really want to let in for free. Hippowdon doesn't have Pert's luxury of being able to run a super strong offensive set either, so it's kind of relegated to the bulky SR role. A SR setter that's afraid of Starmie isn't really what I'd call reliable, but I'll give it to Hippo that it pretty much always finds time to set up in games without Starm. Hippo is also in this awkward spot where it wants PDef investment to handle stuff like CBTar but also SDef for Zapdos and Dragonite so it's tough to choose the right spread. Still, giving Jirachi a hard time is a pretty nice trait, but not enough to justify it being equals with the other A rank mons.

Metagross: A => A+
Holy Jesus is this thing scary. As a lead you pretty much need to OHKO it otherwise it will be giving you trouble. For an offense, the kind of momentum it generates can often be all you need to cruise to victory. The Agility sets are an absolute terror late game as well, partially due to Explosion being able to take down whatever it is you want. The way I see it, getting Metagross in means you WILL make progress in your game plan, what else in this metagame can do that? Probably Breloom only.

Machamp: A- => A
Machamp's still the amazing lead we all know of, but as it turns out, it's even better when Stealth Rock is up. It's just so ridiculously hard to switch into Dynamic Punch when your Zapdos or Gyarados also has to take 25% (plus Sand, probably) that just getting this mon in can earn you a free sac kill. Facing Champ forces you to take risk, because a switch to Gar or Starmie could get you killed by Payback. Oh yeah, and when you get it low enough, it could surprise you with Custap (which it very reliably gets in range for.) Think you can disable it with a burn or sleep? Meet Lum Champ. There's just so little counterplay that you often need to cut losses and let something die to get rid of this clown

Aerodactyl: A- => B+
I find Aero to be in kind of an existential crisis as a lead. Sure, the fast Taunt is enticing, but how often do you even see SR Azelf lead? You might as well just run your own Azelf. The non-lead sets are basically extinct right now, not that they're bad, but they just force your team into a very particular mold which often struggles with current metagame trends.

Clefable: B+ => A-

I think this has been brought up already so I won't write too much on it, but Clef's biggest strength in my opinion is providing a safe way to get Stealth Rock up against Starmie itself. This makes it ideal to slap Clef onto a bulky offense team as a SR guarantee AND a reliable Zapdos switch in, which are two pretty rare traits.

Mamoswine: B+ => B
There's not much to say about Mamo. It's pretty good at getting SR up, but not much else. There's a lot of faster offensive pokes that give it a lot of trouble, and it lacks the coverage to blow past most bulky Ground resists, too. Ice Shard is very interesting late game, but Abomasnow can provide that and much more as an offensive Ice type.

Dugtrio: B => B+
Dugtrio is some kind of Houdini that can turn something as terrible as Cresselia into a nearly unstoppable force, and to me that's worth a lot. It has its issues (giving up momentum against VERY dangerous pokes), but the upside is there. The CB set can trap all 4 S rank pokes (depending on their set) which can't be understated. It's a very anti-metagame pick

Milotic: B => B+

Milo is not very unique but I find it is the best at what it does. When you're looking for a bulky Water with recovery, this guy is your best choice. Starmie gets rocks off and all, but it's not bulky enough to assume the role. Vaporeon has major issues with its moveset, no Roar / HP Elec means Gyara walls you AND sets up, while no Ice Beam means Breloom and Dragonite just waltz in on you unthreatened. Milo can run both of these moves and actually has a pretty interesting Speed stat to boot.

Togekiss: B- => B
I hate everything this mon represents but it's definitely better than Cradily and Heracross... I find it to be the most dangerous thing to face on those TWave spam teams, mostly because it can actually boost the power of its Air Slashes; you'll often only get one chance to hit this mon hard enough to put it out of commission. It's bulky as fuck too so it's hard to actually kill. Kiss is terrible outside of those teams though so it shouldn't be very high

Snorlax: B- => C+

It's getting harder and harder for me to see the appeal to that mon. It has a strong boom and Pursuit, but it can't really find time ever use those correctly. When Sand and SR are active, it just has no survivability whatsoever and can't keep up with the offensive pokes of the tier. At best you're getting a 1 for 1 trade, so I don't really see it as ever worth using.

Cresselia: C+ => B+
This has been mentioned before as well, but yeah, Cress is really, really good with Dugtrio support. I hesitate to rank it higher because it actually NEEDS that support to be that unbeatable threat, and much like Togekiss it falters outside of those specific teams.

Uxie: C+ => B-
Uxie is one of the game's better leads right now. It can do a bunch of things, from setting up Screens, tricking Scarf or just the good ol SR TWave set. Unlike other aggressive SR leads Uxie has the ability to switch out and come back in the game later to grab some more momentum though. Not being afraid of Metagross and Machamp is a big, big advantage over those as well. It doesn't do much else but it's great at what it does.

also paging BKC update the thread idiot
 
I'll bite on a couple.
Machamp: Yes. This thing has insane power and is basically GG if (keyword if, not all Machamps run set-up) it gets a boost or 2. It's that good. Bulk is a problem though, but I feel it deserves it. AGREE.
Clefable: I really feel the problem with this is that it has no stats. When your best stat is 90, then we've got some problems. Magic Guard is really good though, but I really don't feel its on the same level as other Pokemon in the A- tier. DISAGREE.
Snorlax: It might be slow, but 160/65/110 is still pretty damn good defensively. Its 110 attack is also still decent (not what it was in GSC, but it's still good). Furthermore C+ is pokemon either super powerful but full of flaws (Rhyperior) or just outclassed stuff (Steelix). Snorlax is neither full of flaws (it has flaws but not as much as Rhyperior), nor outclassed like Donphan. DISAGREE.
Cresselia: B+ is already an insane raise for a mon. Also Duggy isn't seen much outside of UU (80 attack isn't doing shit here), so it can't get the support it desperately needs. Still, what it can do is pretty good. MOVE IT TO MID B-.

I might as well make a nomination while I'm at it.
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Tyranitar: Below Heatran => Above Heatran
Is this thing a monster or what? I cannot emphasize the pure power this thing packs. Once this gets a Dragon Dance or 2 up, this will basically sweep through everything not named Bronzong (without Crunch) or Swampert. With a Life Orb equipped, it becomes even more powerful. With Scizor becoming less prevalent (eliminating one of its key weaknesses), Tyranitar becomes even more powerful. If it's too slow, you can always slap a Choice Scarf on it, which lets it outspeed up to positively natured base 115s and neutrally natured base 130s, notably including Starmie, Gengar (base 110), and Azelf, as well as Jolteon, Aerodactyl, and Weavile if they're neutral natured (they probably won't be, but you never know) It still has a disgusting amount of weaknesses, but its great EdgeQuake + Crunch or Ice Punch can help mitigate some of those weaknesses, notably nailing Infernape and Lucario with Earthquake. In addition, this Pokemon can also run the set that makes every stall team shudder in fear, TyraniBoah. Tyranitar can fufill basically anything you ask it to be, be it a choiced sweeper, a dragon dancer, an insane stallbreaker, a lure, a really good curser, an amazing lead (countering both Azelf and Aerodactyl, as well as making Jirachi think twice) or even a mixed sweeper. I could go on and on, but I think that should sum everything up.
 
I support most of Jirachee's proposed changes but there are a few I don't agree with.

Metagross: A => A+
Gross is good but I think it should stay in A. As a lead it often faces the same dilemma as Empleon—you can get rocks up or blast something, but not always both. I'd say it's more consistent than Empoleon at getting rocks up and doing damage, but I find that too often you have to choose between one or the other. 4 attacks is also great and a nasty surprise for mons that think you're just going to SR. Agiligross isn't all that common and I feel like I don't often see boom sets opening holes for other sweepers. Most commonly Shuca with Zen/Tpunch, which is good but not devastating. It can donk a lot of offenses late game but overall I think there are too many bulky mons that give it trouble and cut its sweep short. As an offensive mon I just don't see Metagross at the same level as other A+ mons like Infernape/Dragonite/Breloom.

Clefable: B+ => A-
I think Clef is A rank, easy. Its ability to harass offense and stall alike really can't be understated. It effortlessly walls a large portion of special attackers and of course supports its team with Twave and Knock Off. Sure, it's not impenetrable like Blissey, but if you're not packing mons like LO Starmie, Specs Zap, etc. then Clefable will wall you to hell and back. Setting up SR is cool and CM can be a huge issue for fat teams once Ttar is down (and if you can dodge the potential Trick).

Uxie: C+ => B-
I would move it up to B, it's much better than other B- stuff like Gastro/Tenta/Tomb
 
Here are some of my thoughts on some of the pokemon listed. By the way, I think that the most appropriate way to rank pokemon would be role-based rankings as it was done in the lead rankings. I understand that this thread is more generic and is supposed to give people just a feeling of how good is a mon in the current metagame, but creating role-based ranking would be an awesome addition for people who try to learn a tier.
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    Starmie : S -> A+
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    Starmie is definitely still an excellent pokemon but I feel that it's not good enough for S anymore. In terms of versatility Starmie is miles behind the other 3 mons in S and there's no doubt that its selling point in current DPP is spinning. However, spinning with Starmie has been getting increasingly difficult. Tyranitar is everywhere right now, induces Sandstorm to negate its leftovers and can trap it with Pursuit. Passho Berry users are also more common now than in the past, making Starmie's life much more difficult. Starmie's sets with 3 attacks + Spin get easily worn out (especially when using Colbur Berry > Leftovers) and sets with Recover + Rapid Spin are much less threatening offensively. Furthermore, what I have observed is that spinning more than once is often quite difficult (especially on offensive teams) and Starmie often has to risk getting severely damaged in order to spin. This means that the opponent can then set his hazards up again, having KO'd a mon in the process. With that being said, Starmie is indeed the only kinda reliable spinner in the tier and there are some teams that absolutely need it to function properly.

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    Scizor : A+ -> A
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    While Scizor can be really threatening lategame as a SD sweeeper, creating perfect conditions for its sweep can be quite difficult. The problem is that it's stopped cold by anything faster with Fire Coverage and there are many good mons that tick both boxes in DPP. Choice Band Scizor is still a very powerful mon, despite often being a bit let down by its speed. Choice Scarf Scizor's main selling point is the surprise factor ; other than that, it's neither powerful nor fast enough for a scarfer. All in all, I think Scizor is a very good mon but often underwhelming and thus, it doesn't deserve A+ in my opinion.

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    Gengar : A -> A+
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    Excellent offensively, awful defensively. Gengar's case is really as simple as that and similar to Infernape's in a sense. When using Gengar you're using an offensive powerhouse ; I see spinblocking just as a bonus. I think that the (inevitable) comparison with Rotom-A is a bit unfair as both have different merits and picking one depends more on the teams' need. So, while I can understand reasoning for the opposite, I believe Gengar deserves a spot in A+.

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    Hippowdon : A -> A-
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    Great mixed wall but also quite passive for current DPP, which makes it quite easy to exploit. It's still an excellent mon in the proper (stall) team though and that's why I wouldn't rate it lower than A-.

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    Machamp: A- -> A
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    Machamp is undeniably one of the most annoying pokemon to face. It can potentially decide the game vs unprepared opponents just by spamming Dynamic Punch and the appropriate coverage moves. Not many pokemon are able to do this and that's the reason I think it deserves A rank, despite its drawbacks (slow, often relies on luck).

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    Kingdra: A- -> A
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    Excellent typing, good stats and one of the most unpredictable mons in the tier due to its incredible versatility. Rain Dance sets can easily sweep weakened offensive/bulky offensive teams late-game, while Dragon Dance Kingdra is definitely not a mon one can underestimate. Average stats and sometimes insufficient coverage is the only thing that doesn't allow Kingdra to be ranked at A+, but I think it's definitely worth of A rank.

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    Roserade: A- -> A
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    That's a strange one. I would only use Roserade for its ability to set up or absorb Toxic Spikes as I think it's outclassed in every other role it can perform. However, it's probably the best available option to perform that role. It can fit in both bulky offensive and defensive teams, it can stay in vs Starmie and threaten to KO it and Poison Point Roserade can be used to absorb Breloom's spore. So, I believe Roserade's place is somewhere low in the A Rank.

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    Celebi: A- -> B+
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    It has very good stats and a nice movepool but it's really hindered by its awful defensive typing, which makes it weak to 7 types with some of them being among the most common in DPP. For example, it takes a huge chunk of damage by U-Turn and is susceptible to getting trapped by Tyranitar which undermines its ability to reliably check Breloom. Outclassed in most of the roles it can perform, in my opinion, finds a place in B+ just because of its stats and movepool which sometimes give it a niche.

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    Forretress: A- -> B
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    Once upon a time an excellent mon, now mediocre at best.Very passive, difficult to set up hazards with it, difficult to spin hazards with it, no recovery bar leftovers, getting trapped by Magnezone. Current DPP doesn't make it any favors at all. It can work if it's given proper support or/and if it gets a favorable MU but I'm not sure it's worth picking over other options anyway.

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    Bronzong: B+ -> A-
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    Excellent defensive typing and defensive stats but mediocre offensive stats and movepool. It can be excellent with the right support but awful without it, so I guess consistency is the only problem here. I'd rate it somewhere high in A- rank.

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    Clefable: B+ -> A
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    Excellent special wall, probably the best in the tier along with Blissey and the face of modern DPP stall. Blissey can tank hits much more comfortably, but Clefable's ability give it a special niche that Blissey lacks. I won't bother to analyze furthermore how good Clefable is ; every experienced DPP player can acknowledge its qualities. In my opinion, it would even be A+ if it could tank hits a bit better.

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    Milotic: B -> B+
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    Very good at what it does: great mixed wall, water resist with recovery and also has a decent offensive presence. I think that it's closer to the other B+ ranked mons than it is to the B ranked mons.

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    Dugtrio: B -> B+
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    Its Choice Band set is able to trap very common (non-scarfed) mons, which allows some other pokemon (like Cresselia) to shine. The main drawback is that it often becomes setup bait after it traps a mon, but this doesn't take anything away from Dugtrio. It could potentially get up to A-, but I feel B+ is where it belongs at the moment since its often useless after it does what it should.

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    Cresselia: C+ -> B+
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    This is a personal favourite of mine and is a terrifying pokemon to face once its main counters are gone. Good luck taking it down once Tyranitar, Heatran and Blissey are gone. Moonlight sucks but it can alternatively run Rest (which also cures status) with minimal cost, as it's so bulky it can afford spending two turns asleep. The main drawback of Cresselia is that it requires Dugtrio 100% of the time to remove the omnipresent Tyranitar and this is the main reason I can't rate it any higher.

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    Uxie: C+ -> B/B-
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    Very underrated lead, but not much more than that. I think B/B- rank reflects better its position in the current DPP.
 
might as well put this here since I reference it like 5 times in this post

Since Latias is now confirmed for OU, I feel like it's time for the VR to give it some representation, and some updating towards how she's currently affecting the meta. Her showing at SPL X was impressive despite it being the first time being usable in high level play, being the 3rd most used Pokemon at 46% usage and a 54% winrate, the only Pokemon in the top 10 most used with a winrate above 50%. With that in mind, here's my recommended starting position:

Latias: Unranked => S, between Heatran and Tyranitar

Her strengths are so plentiful I'm having a tough time deciding where to start. She's capable of running scarf, specs, safeguard CM, defensive CM, Roost + 3 attacks, and can lure in Scizor and Tyranitar with HP Fire and Grass Knot, respectively, or even run HP Ground for Heatran; her typing allows her to act as the Breloom answer defensive teams in the past were scrambling for; She gives Starmie exceptional trouble, both in giving it competition as a bulky psychic with instant recovery, as well as an offensive psychic due to having greater bulk and Draco Meteor, and since they speed tie and Latias can tank even a specs ice beam, she can effectively check or even counter opposing Starmies (apologies, misremembered Starmie's speed). Combined with her Spikes immunity, this means that a lot of bulky teams are now a lot more comfortable dropping Starmie and simply not running a spinner, instead focusing on stacking Spikes immunities (IIRC some number crunching I'd done previously, ~47% of the Pokemon used during SPL X were Spikes immune). She can be pretty easily slapped on almost any team and still pull her weight. However, Jirachi, Heatran, and Tyranitar all counter her if she's not running the respective coverage move or if she's a defensive set, and many offensive Pokemon already carry either neutral STABs or SE coverage moves that can hit her hard. She also suffers from 4MSS to an extent, and Draco Meteor SpAtk drops usually force her back out once it's dropped.

To be honest, I'd also be happy with putting her below Tyranitar, but my suggested placement is what feels more accurate to me.

As for my thoughts on previous nominations:

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Scizor A+ => A: I'll have to disagree with this currently, mainly because of how it deals with Latias. While it hates tanking dracos, it pretty much forces any non-HP Fire Latias out, and can Pursuit trap it with proper prediction. A rise in bulky teams also helps, as Band Scizor has an easier time switching in and consistently gaining back the momentum, while SD zor doesn't need to worry about its Speed tier as much, while being able to deal with Clefable and Blissey. Everyone carrying fire moves to deal with Skarmory doesn't help, but those tend to be stronger than the stray HP Fires traditionally used to lure Scizor, so they should be more predictable and easier to deal with.

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Hippowdon A => A-: Agree. While it should supposedly have an easier time finding usage in a bulkier meta, and there aren't as many Brelooms around, CBpert and Swampert in general is gaining a lot of ground, being the 5th most used Pokemon in SPL with 23% usage. Not only does Pert give competition as a bulky ground-type who can set rocks, but hippo also loses to CBpert, and Water offense in general. I otherwise agree with Jirachee on everything else he mentions.

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Metagross A => A+: yeah, I'll agree to this. On top of what's already been mentioned, it can Pursuit-trap Latias, or just hit her hard with Meteor Mashes.

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Machamp A- => A: 248+ Atk Machamp Payback (100 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latias: 260-308 (86.3 - 102.3%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock | 252 SpA Latias Psychic vs. 240 HP / 16 SpD Machamp: 294-348 (77.1 - 91.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock . I also agree with Jirachee's statements, again.

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Aerodactyl A- => B+: I'm not so sure on this one. Azelf leads definitely appear to be alive and well from what I've been noticing, and being able to outspeed Latias and hit it on its weaker physical defense with a neutral STAB is pretty good, while the omnipresent Sand would help it tank stray moves from her (252 draco does 57.1 - 67.7% under sand). However, I don't believe I understand the meta well enough to confidently say whether the aero team molds Jirachee mentioned can fare well again or not, so I'm going to ultimately pass on this one, but lean closer towards A-.

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Clefable B+ => A-: yeah this is a pretty easy agree, it's existence is also a pretty big reason why the bulky spinnerless spike-immunity-stacking teams have been rising in popularity, and was the 13th most used mon, with 15% usage. I'd say its impact is too great for it to stay in B+.

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Mamoswine B+ => B: agreed. An increase in spike-immune mons means an increase in ground immune mons, with Clefable being the exception. Being able to ice shard latias isnt enough to make it worth running - might as well go abomasnow or weavile.

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Dugtrio B => B+: Agreed. While the above statement to Ground-type moves still applies, Dug's ability to guarantee the removal of a specific list of extremely important Pokemon can basically win games on its own. It should be noted that while Cresselia was used to hype it up before, Latias shares an extremely similar list, and she's a much higher profile mon to be supporting.

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Milotic B => B+: Absolutely. While she's worse at blanket-checking mons like Suicune, her instant recovery allows her to consistently tank harder hits time and time again that Suicune could have a hard time dealing with even with Rest, such as Latias' Draco Meteor (though specs can 2HKO guaranteed after rocks), and can hit harder off the bat than Suicune can, or attack in scenarios where Suicune would be forced to deal with sleeping turns from Rest. I personally find myself using Milotic more than Suicune, though that could just be a fluke from me.

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Togekiss B- => B: yeah I have to agree, even if I don't want to give it more exposition that it already has.

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Snorlax B- => C+: it can tank and pursuit trap Latias now which is a bonus, but I don't think that's enough to keep it in B-.

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Cresselia C+ => B+: I'm not so sure about it being this high now that it has competition with Latias as a bulky CM user, but having less weaknesses and a lot more bulk, significantly so on the physical side, probably makes it more consistent. I'd say B for now, but it could still be B+.

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Uxie C+ => B-: I wouldn't put it in B with it also catching the Latias preparation every team will have now, but that shouldn't effect its ability as a lead, just its ability to function outside of it. I agree with a B- placement.

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Starmie S => A+: If you read my original paragraph concerning Latias you should already know what my stance on this is. (Edit: Now that I realize I messed up and though Starmie's speed was 110, being able to hit Lati twice on a switch-in as well as confirming an Ice Beam kill at lower HP makes it better at dealing with latias than I originally thought it could. However, I still don't think it's quite enough to keep it in S.)

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Gengar A+ => A: While it speed-ties with Latias, Latias can generally tank Shadow Balls and OHKO with Psychic, so it can potentially even beat Gengars behind a sub. Spikes being a lot less effective now also hurts gar a lot. It's still good, but not quite A+ good imo.

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Kingdra A- => A: It gets bopped by Latias but Latias gets bopped back if Kingdra has Rain or a DD, otherwise it usually fares well vs bulky teams with most of its boosting sets (or specs if you wanna go that route). I agree with the bump to A.

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Roserade A- => A: Hard disagree. IIRC, a solid 12% of the mons used in SPL X were suspectible to Toxic Spikes, and the most she can do to Latias is sleep or paralyze her. Offensive sets arent that good currently, her best bet is her spikes set but unless you're planning on haxing people out you're generally better off going with Skarmory. While Starmie still saw 30% usage as the 4th most used mon, I feel like having a Spiker that can deal with Starmie isn't generally as necessary as it used to be, and dealing with Breloom definitely isn't as important currently, since he's been scared off a lot by Latias.

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Celebi A- => B+: Agreed. Celebi was already falling off previously, and now Latias is bullying Celebi out of a lot of positions teams were still using it for. Might even fit in B tbh.

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Forretress A- => B: Agreed, it was pretty bleh before and the whole spike-immune trend I've mentioned 25 times doesn't do it any favors. It has spikes + gravity which could be cool for dealing with those teams but I doubt it'll ever be more than a gimmick that looks cool on paper but isn't actually practical.

184732
Bronzong B+ => A-: What the hell is this thing doing in B+? I'd actually argue a solid A placement. it was tied for 8th most used Pokemon in SPL with 21% usage, punishes teams that rely on Ground coverage to deal with the steels, trades 1:1 at a minimum and usually puts in a lot of work before going down, and OTR zong is one of the better cleaners/sweepers out there at the moment. It's current placement is definitely undeserving.
 
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peng

fuck xatu
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Only really been playing again since Latias dropped, not sure if that makes my point of view any more or less valid but here's my impressions anyway:

Rated too high:
Starmie (S to A+) - everyone else covered this already. Jirachi / Heatran / Tyranitar are by far the 3 best mons in the format, Starmie is obviously very good but doesn't occupy the same bracket for me. There's maybe an argument to make an S- that includes Starmie and Latias cos for me these are pretty solidly 4th and 5th best mons, a step again above the stuff below.

Scizor (A+ to A) - I'm just not sure what it does right now? Not splashable at all, fits on pretty specific team types. It does its job when you need it but how often do you need it? Faces tough competition for Tyranitar and Jirachi for the stuff it brings to the table defensively (regarding bulky CB and bulky SD), offensive SD seems like its niche just now but its just unconvincing for me.

Zapdos (Still A+ but its not at the top of A+ mon imo) - Worse than Starmie and Latias for me, probably 3rd or 4th of the A+ mons.

Rated too low:
Latias (unranked to A+) - neck and neck with Starmie for 4th-5th best mon. Like the mons above it, its not gonna sweep you but it has some kind of influence almost every game, has tons of sets. A bit like Jirachi, almost every team can benefit from a Latias in some way, whether its Specs, Colbur Twave, CM, offensive LO, Trick Flame Orb etc etc etc. Just very solid mon.

Swampert (A to A+) - easy A+ mon for me, would maybe go as far as to say its the 6th best mon around after Jirachi, Ttar, Heatran, Starmie, and Latias. Offensive 3 attacks + SR sets are absolutely class. Not necessarily paired with Lati, but certainly benefits from Lati scaring fat grasses and some of the waters out of usage.

Gliscor (A- to A) - Consistency. Its not gonna blow you away but just a ridiculously consist Pokemon. Consistent SR, consistent stallbreaker, and a damn good SD set even without Sand Veil. I don't think there'll ever be a DPP meta where Glisc isn't a top 10-15 mon lol.

Bronzong (B+ to A-) - Hard agree with the guy above. V. good steel option for offense.

Magnezone and Dugtrio (B+/B to A-) - Covered to death. Not as influential as everyone made them out to be when Lati dropped but still up unbelievably effective at doing their job. Trap some of the best mons in the tier. Single-handedly make ~15 mons threatening when they otherwise wouldn't be.

Milotic (B to A-) - Its currently below Jolteon... Yeah there's loads of bulky waters above it, but its the only viable one with reliable recovery. If you already have SR somewhere, its a toss-up between Cune/Milo on semistall. Definitely a lot better than Vaporeon and Quagsire anyway.
 
I've been working on exploiting this mon for the best part of the last 5 months. I hope that I have displayed over the past few months why Dusknoir should not be that low. Offensive sets > the defensive crap people been using for the past centuries. It has without a doubt been fun using it but more importantly, I and other people have won way more games than I thought I would. It isn't an ALL-TIME star mon but it also isn't a Pokemon that you have to really try hard to fit it in your team and I have seen it take several common team archetypes by storm with alot of games almost being identical just because of the shitload of Mons it can check. From spin blocking in a pinch, to forcing opposing teams to reveal their hard hitter (Band Ape / Gyarados / Dragonite / Tyranitar), to picking off Rotom-W and Gengar (this monster fucking nukes them both its unreal). it can take a hit or two as well and forces alot of switches. It also allows you to trade off with annoyances like Zapdos and Heatran if you play it right allowing Scizor and metagross to lategame clean.

my friends who I shared this set and team initially have also had good success with it and I've achieved ridiculous records (something like 53-6 initially with this vs all kinds of players)


I humbly request this going up to C rank.

May I ask what offencive sets you have been running? Id est, do you attached a choice band, leftovers or something else? Which elemental punches work the best, and what Pokemon can't this one switch into?
 
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