DP Torterra

[Blue Kirby]

For reference, here's what we're looking at: http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/torterra

The change that I'm proposing here is that Torterra we create two sets out of one set that tries to specialize in too much. If we take a quick look at the set entitled "Tankish", we see that Torterra has many options available to it for use in the final slot.

Nature: Adamant
Item: Leftovers
EVs: 36 HP / 252 Atk / 220 Spe
~ Wood Hammer
~ Earthquake
~ Stone Edge
~ Stealth Rock / Reflect / Light Screen / Leech Seed / Rock Polish

Now, keeping in mind that the set is entitled "Tankish", why are we looking at an Adamant nature, along with significant speed investment in a fairly slow Pokemon? The answer is that the "Rock Polish requires 220 EVs in Speed to attain the requisite 203 to beat Choice Scarf Heracross." That's all good and fine, but what if the user opts against using Rock Polish? I don't see the need for all that Speed if that's the case. For that reason, I am of the opinion that Torterra needs a dedicated Rock Polish set, as it is a very viable option when used correctly. This will allow the EVs on the original set to be clarified, and remove a sense of "slashitis" from the set.

---

[SET]
name: Tank
move 1: Wood Hammer
move 2: Earthquake / Stone Edge
move 3: Leech Seed
move 4: Stealth Rock
item: Leftovers
nature: Impish
evs: 212 HP / 252 Def / 44 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>The concept behind this set is to chip away at the opponent while relying on Torterra's defenses to make use of a supporting move. Wood Hammer, Earthquake and Stone Edge provide excellent coverage, which is not overly enhanced by the inclusion of one of Torterra's other options such as Superpower or Crunch.</p>

<p>Instead of relying on an offensive move than only marginally improves the set, Torterra can utilize its defensive capabilities with a support move. Each has its own advantages. Stealth Rock will negate the possibility of Focus Sash users threatening your team, while also reducing the foe's opportunities to switch. Reflect and Light Screen aid in bolstering your both the defenses of Torterra and its team. Leech Seed acts as a form of recovery and a means of forcing switches.</p>

[SET]
name: Rock Polish
move 1: Wood Hammer
move 2: Earthquake
move 3: Stone Edge
move 4: Rock Polish
item: Life Orb / Leftovers / Lum Berry
nature: Adamant
evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>The idea behind this set is to outspeed many unsuspecting threats with Rock Polish, attempting to cause as much damage as possible to the opponent. Choice Scarf users can act as barriers which prevent this strategy from working effectively. 252 Speed EVs allow Torterra to hit 422 Speed, which is enough to outspeed Modest Choice Scarf Porygon-Z after using Rock Polish once.</p>

<p>Life Orb allows Torterra to pack more of a punch after it has used Rock Polish. The extra offense aids Torterra in posing a greater threat - as it is, Grass, Ground and Rock threatens many Pokemon. Leftovers sacrifices offense in exchange for survivability, while Lum Berry acts as a method of preventing a status affliction ending your sweep.</p>

 

[Phuquoph]

I would drop Reflect / Light Screen from the Tank set and just keep Stealth Rock and Leech Seed. Screens aren't as useful as the other two options, so they can be dropped either to set comments or Other Options. What does Adamant and 86 Attack EVs do? Unless they let him OHKO/2HKO something important, I would list the recommended EV spread as Impish, max or 384 HP, 46 Speed, with the rest in Defense.

I think Rock Polish can go to Other Options too. There are better options for that type of set, and it's not like Torterra is struggling to find an effective set between CB, Tank, Rest/Sleep Talk and Sub Seed.

 

[Blue Kirby]

Okay, I've dropped Reflect / Light Screen from the Tank set, and will add them to Other Options as soon as we're done refining here. The EVs have also been redone.

I personally think that Rock Polish does warrant use as a set. It allows Torterra to get the jump on many of its counters, though if the majority is against it, then I guess it needs to just remain in Other Options.

 

[Swimrunner]

For a Rock Polish set, I would give Torterra 192 speed (176 EV's) myself, enough to outpace Weavile. You miss out on outspeeding ScarfCross, but so what? You can't actually do anything to Heracross either way, since he resists your STAB moves and is neutral to Stone Edge. Weavile on the other hand gets smashed by Stone Edge (assuming it connects). Torterra appreciates the tiny bit extra bulkiness as well.

Spread would be 80 HP / 252 Attack / 176 Speed.

For the overall analysis, I would remove Choice Scarf on the CB set. It should be stated in an Item discussion article (do we have one of those? you know just like the most common items you'll see in battling) that Choice Scarf can be a surprise stuck on almost anything in the game, and I think that's more than enough. Torterra is not built for Choice Scarf in any way for it be worth considering it part of his main sets, plain and simple. Hell, he only gets to 316 speed max with scarf, which doesn't even beat max/+nature base 95 pokemon.

Additionally, the EV spread has 46 speed, which should be 44 speed (which reaches 159, faster than min speed Tyranitar at 158). I would hazard that you could dock 4 points for the same cutoff on the Sleep Talk set. However, whether it's better to even have those points listed on the main set in the first place rather than putting them in the EV's section is debatable. I personally think you may be better off advocating at least 212 HP (384, leftovers threshold) and then whatever mix of Attack/Defense is appropriate and should ignore speed on the main set EV points. Torterra wants as much bulk or power as possible, and outspeeding min speed Tyranitar is not as big of a priority for him in my opinon.

Actually, on the Sleep Talk set, 216 EV's in Defense allows Torterra to gain the maximum possible bonus points from an Impish nature, so I personally like 252 HP / 40 Attack / 216 Defense.

 

[Blue Kirby]

For a Rock Polish set, I would give Torterra 192 speed (176 EV's) myself, enough to outpace Weavile. You miss out on outspeeding ScarfCross, but so what? You can't actually do anything to Heracross either way, since he resists your STAB moves and is neutral to Stone Edge. Weavile on the other hand gets smashed by Stone Edge (assuming it connects). Torterra appreciates the tiny bit extra bulkiness as well. Spread would be 80 HP / 252 Attack / 176 Speed.

That seems like fairly good logic, though I'm not so sure that you're looking at the big picture. You can also get the jump on stuff like Aerodactyl, Crobat and Jolteon, all of which you can hit hard. It'll also allow you to possibly tie with something like Agility Metagross, who you can hit pretty hard with STAB Earthquake.

For the overall analysis, I would remove Choice Scarf on the CB set. It should be stated in an Item discussion article (do we have one of those? you know just like the most common items you'll see in battling)

Yeah, I tend to agree actually.

Additionally, the EV spread has 46 speed, which should be 44 speed (which reaches 159, faster than min speed Tyranitar at 158).

I'm not quite sure what you were looking at, but in my post, 46 Speed had been changed to 44 for a good 3 hours before you posted.

I personally think you may be better off advocating at least 212 HP (384, leftovers threshold) and then whatever mix of Attack/Defense is appropriate and should ignore speed on the main set EV points.

Yeah, I intended to update the EVs section based on whatever we came up here. I do think that outspeeding minimum Speed Tyranitar should be mentioned, because getting the jump on it could be handy in some cases, though I'm not sure that it's all that common in today's metagame anyway.

Actually, on the Sleep Talk set, 216 EV's in Defense allows Torterra to gain the maximum possible bonus points from an Impish nature, so I personally like 252 HP / 40 Attack / 216 Defense.

Unless I'm mistaken, 216 HP / 252 Defense will take physical hits marginally better percentage-wise than 252 HP / 216 Defense. Although, maximizing HP will allow you to take Special hits a bit better, so I guess it depends what you're after.

 

[Swimrunner]

That seems like fairly good logic, though I'm not so sure that you're looking at the big picture. You can also get the jump on stuff like Aerodactyl, Crobat and Jolteon, all of which you can hit hard. It'll also allow you to possibly tie with something like Agility Metagross, who you can hit pretty hard with STAB Earthquake.

I agree on Aero/Cro/Jolt, but Metagross isn't going to come in THEN agility, at least not while staying alive at the same time. 200 points to hit 198 perhaps? (lol RSE number)

I'm not quite sure what you were looking at, but in my post, 46 Speed had been changed to 44 for a good 3 hours before you posted.

o_O

Yeah, I intended to update the EVs section based on whatever we came up here. I do think that outspeeding minimum Speed Tyranitar should be mentioned, because getting the jump on it could be handy in some cases, though I'm not sure that it's all that common in today's metagame anyway.

Unless I'm mistaken, 216 HP / 252 Defense will take physical hits marginally better percentage-wise than 252 HP / 216 Defense. Although, maximizing HP will allow you to take Special hits a bit better, so I guess it depends what you're after.

kay im fine with either

 

[cornflake]

I would honestly drop Wood Hammer in the tank set and allow for both Leech Seed and Stealth Rock. A tank shouldn't be taking more damage than it has to, and QuakeSlide/Edge is good coverage already.

If not dropped at least make one of the support options available as an option over it.

 

[Phuquoph]

You can't really drop Wood Hammer, since it's one of his main advantages over other Grounds. I guess if you had Leech Seed, you'd still have something over Donphan, Hippowdon, Swampert, etc. Still, I wouldn't recommend leaving it out of any of Torterra's sets, unless you really hate recoil and prefer to use Seed Bomb.

If you wanted both Stealth Rock and Leech Seed, I'd suggest dropping Stone Edge. Stealth Rock and Leech Seed wear down Flying types, plus Wood Hammer does almost the same damage as Stone Edge to Gyarados.

 

[cornflake]

Grammar nitpick: "The concept behind this set is to chip away at the opponent while relying on Torterra's defenses make use of a supporting move."

Something's missing, it sounds weird. Change it to like ""The concept behind this set is to chip away at the opponent, all the while hiding behind Torterra's defenses and making good use of a supporting move."

And @Phuquoph: Dropping Stone Edge will leave you pretty much retarded against opposing grassers (immune to Leech Seed and resists to Wood Hammer and EQ) so I don't know if it's a good idea. I can't think of using Torterra without Leech Seed, so the moveset becomes tricky if one wishes to use both support moves. Perhaps a note in the set comments advocating the drop of either Wood Hammer/Stone Edge to fit in both support moves?

 

[Sunday]

220 Speed EVs allow Torterra to hit 203 Speed, which is enough to outspeed Adamant Choice Scarf Heracross after using Agility once.</p>

Just should say Rock Polish

 

[Colonel M]

I'm agreeing on the Tank set to an extent. Seed Bomb could work well over Wood Hammer just for those that are afraid of recoil taking their lives, though Leech Seed and Leftovers would heal some of the damage. Hmph, I'd probably still use Wood Hammer myself however.

The Rock Polish set could work fun with Life Orb and Wood Hammer, as a suicidal shot for Overgrow. You could make a minor note about that I guess, but it is entirely up to you. I don't see it as mandatory, but it was at least mentioned in the Swords Dance Infernape set. Also, could Expert Belt work its way into the set as well? You hit SE on 9 types (Ground, Rock, Ice, Steel, Flying, Water, Fire, Electric, Poison).

 

[Blue Kirby]

Grammar nitpick: "The concept behind this set is to chip away at the opponent while relying on Torterra's defenses make use of a supporting move."

It needed to be "defenses to make use of a support move." I don't know how that was left out. My mistake.

I'm not sure if Leech Seed is a necessity on the tanking set to be honest, since you probably won't be on the field enough to effectively utilize it. Certainly dropping Wood Hammer for it would rob Torterra of one of its advantages, though I suppose a note could be added to the set.

 

[cornflake]

<p>Instead of relying on an offensive move than only marginally improves the set, Torterra can utilize its defensive capabilities with a support move. Each has its own advantages. Stealth Rock will negate the possibility of Focus Sash users threatening your team, while also reducing the foe's opportunities to switch. Reflect and Light Screen aid in bolstering your both the defenses of Torterra and its team. Leech Seed acts as a form of recovery and a means of forcing switches.</p>

Needs some rewriting now that the screens are out of the way.

<p>Instead of relying on an offensive move than only marginally improves the set, Torterra can instead utilize its defensive capabilities with a support move, mainly Stealth Rock or Leech Seed. Both have their own advantages. Stealth Rock will negate the possibility of Focus Sash users threatening your team, while also reducing the foe's opportunities to switch. On the other hand, Leech Seed acts as a form of recovery and a means of forcing switches. The decision between these moves should be based on what your team needs more.</p>

Sounds cleaner, more of a comparision between two moves.

 

[Phuquoph]

Grammar nitpick: "The concept behind this set is to chip away at the opponent while relying on Torterra's defenses make use of a supporting move."

Something's missing, it sounds weird. Change it to like ""The concept behind this set is to chip away at the opponent, all the while hiding behind Torterra's defenses and making good use of a supporting move."

And @Phuquoph: Dropping Stone Edge will leave you pretty much retarded against opposing grassers (immune to Leech Seed and resists to Wood Hammer and EQ) so I don't know if it's a good idea. I can't think of using Torterra without Leech Seed, so the moveset becomes tricky if one wishes to use both support moves. Perhaps a note in the set comments advocating the drop of either Wood Hammer/Stone Edge to fit in both support moves?

Well, it's not like Celebi, Tangrowth, Cradily, Shaymin and Leafeon will take much from Stone Edge. It's only 10 more BP than a not very effective STAB Wood Hammer (except on Cradily, who is neutral to both STAB moves).

- Wood Hammer
- Earthquake / Stone Edge
- Leech Seed
- Stealth Rock

Looks fine to me. You can add a note about "mixing and matching" the attacks in set comments.

I'm not sure if Leech Seed is a necessity on the tanking set to be honest, since you probably won't be on the field enough to effectively utilize it.

Leech Seed and Stealth Rock have a nice synergy going, so I'd be loathe to drop either of them. He doesn't need to stick around to make use of Leech Seed, it's a support option to heal team mates. Torterra gets easily walled by the likes of Skarm and Bronzong, so seeding them before switching out is his best chance to actually do something to either of them.

 

[cornflake]

Agreeing with Phu here.

- Wood Hammer
- Earthquake / Stone Edge
- Leech Seed
- Stealth Rock

is acceptable to me. I believe a tanking set should differentiate itself from the offensive sets, so why not make use of both SR and Leech Seed? It's not like it's really hurting Torterra's versatility; in fact, it probably makes it more versatile by providing such support. This proves more useful overall, then.

The combination of Stealth Rock and Leech Seed is a good one, at that: stay in, get sapped by the seeds; switch out, and your replacement is taking damage.

 

[Blue Kirby]

That seems like an acceptable alternative. I'm happy with that.

 

[Swimrunner]

I agree on Aero/Cro/Jolt, but Metagross isn't going to come in THEN agility, at least not while staying alive at the same time. 200 points to hit 198 perhaps? (lol RSE number)

agree/disagree?

 

[Phuquoph]

Actually, I would just max out Speed. You'll outrun Scarf Porygon-Z after a Rock Polish if you go with max Speed. The HP EVs aren't really helping that much, especially if you've got Life Orb.

 

[Blue Kirby]

Yeah, I'd prefer more Speed as well since you're not really going to have many chances at getting in two Rock Polishes, so that's probably the way to go.

 

[Rhykune]

What do you gain in outspeeding Scarfcross? None of your attacks kill it...
Wewt post 100!!!

 

[cornflake]

What do you gain in outspeeding Scarfcross?

What don't you gain? It's more beneficial to Torterra overall.

 

[Colonel M]

You can still use Stone Edge on it. Maybe Heracross is locked on Stone Edge or Pursuit, who knows?

 

[Blue Kirby]

Actually, I would just max out Speed. You'll outrun Scarf Porygon-Z after a Rock Polish if you go with max Speed. The HP EVs aren't really helping that much, especially if you've got Life Orb.

Scarfcross really isn't the point of discussion right now anyway, as you can see. I think that maxing Speed, in this case, is the way to go.

 

[Aldaron]

this post is for jrrrrrrr's and aldaron's purposes...

purpose of thread fulfilled, should be deleted