Cicada's Gambit: A Ninjask Discussion Thread

Ninjask Discussion:

This is not a post supporting or opposing Ninjask usage in Ubers. My tests on him were inconclusive, because Ninjask could often readily pass boosts, but the recipient would often fail to capitalize on the advantage (or maybe I was doing it wrong...). The purpose of this is to get documentation on the bug, whereas none exists right now. We've all heard people say at one point or another something to the effect that if usage stats were weighted, Ninjask would be UU. But Ninjask is probably better in Ubers than in OU for the following reasons:

Less Physical Priority: The only users of physical priority in Ubers are Rayquaza, Deoxys-A, and Scizor. If a Rayquaza enters the field (assuming you have used Substitute), you can stil complete a pass to a recipient who consequently outspeeds it. Granted, all you have passed is Speed, but that can still potentially be deadly. Scizor is often choiced, and many Ubers enjoy taking advantage of a Choiced Bullet Punch. Deoxys-A is a problem, but I go over dealing with it later.

Less Phazing: Swampert, Hippowdon, Gyarados, and their brethren aren't showing their heads any time soon in Ubers, at least not controlled by a skilled player. The only regularly seen phazers are Groudon and Latias. The latter fails to phaze without risking a X-Scissor to the ass.

Different Taunt Users: Taunt users in OU are Aerodactyl and Gyarados, who also wall Ninjask. Taunt users in Ubers are all Psychic and Dark-types, who all get 2HKOed by X-Scissor.

All of this combines to make it easier for Ninjask to complete its mission of successfully Baton Passing boosts. So why isn't Ninjask exploited more in Ubers?

Stealth Rock: The best move in the game ensures that your Baton Passing (mis)adventure will often be a one-time deal.

Wobbuffet: Can often limit you to just passing limited amounts of Speed via the threat of Encore.

The Recipient: Ubers hit hard. If the speed recipient doesn't get a safe switch-in via a Substitute that consequently breaks (or better yet, doesn't!), it really gets blasted, which sets you back.

Revealed Plan: Ninjask isn't exactly the most subtle Pokemon, and your opponent often can figure out your plan, which sets you back. If, for example, you're passing to Groudon and your opponent has a tankish Kyogre (who counters RPDon), there's a problem.

So all of these are the pros and cons of using Ninjask. Now let's go over strategy in battle. Ninjasks probably works best as a lead (to circumvent Stealth Rock) in perhaps one of the following movesets.

Ninjask (M) @ Liechi Berry / Leftovers
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 226 Atk/108 Def/176 Spd
Jolly nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Substitute
- Swords Dance / Protect
- X-Scissor
- Baton Pass
---
The V1 set is Ninjask's classic, and since you outspeed non-scarf Darkrai, you can Sub before it attacks or attempts a sleeping move. Taunt Deoxys-E and Mew lose to 2 X-Scissors. Against Kyogre, you complete your mission of passing Speed to a recipient, although you do lose to ScarfOgre, who outspeeds you initially. Look on the bright-side: Many ubers, such as Scizor, Dialga, and Forretress, can take advantage of an unboosted Ice Beam, and Palkia can easily handle an unboosted Water Spout. The biggest problems with this variant are Groudon, who often has Roar, and Deoxys-A, who can also outspeed and kill you.

Ninjask (M) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 226 Atk/108 Def/176 Spd
Jolly nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Protect
- Swords Dance
- X-Scissor
- Baton Pass
---
This is the V3 set. It is EV'd to outspeed Deoxys-A, letting it beat immediate damage leads, although the Stealth Rocker still beats you with Extremespeed. Unfortunately, you lose to Darkrai, which isn't cool. I'm really not too sure about this fellow, or why I'd use him over a set with Substitute. But Focus Sash does let you live an attack and get off a Swords Dance, and although its a gamble, it can pay off.


Recipients for Ninjask's Boosts:
Dialga: blocks Bullet Punch and Extremespeed. Has excellent typing and solid defenses, and it has Bulk Up to boost its attack if you didn't pass it any. The problem here is that the attack stat is mediocre by Ubers standards, and you don't do anything substantive to a support Groudon without Draco Meteor.

Groudon: solid physical defense also helps stop priority. A Groudon with +2 Atk and +2 Speed can sweep through anything. Unfortunately, typing isn't so great, and tactical possibilities are limited.

Rayquaza: Formidable mixed capabilities and sky-high attack stats, not to mention that it can easily work as a self-contained sweeper should your plan fail. But it doesn't handle priority moves too well.

Palkia: can block Bullet Punch and come in on a ScarfOgre. But that, unfortunately, is pretty much it, as it doesn't have much over Dialga otherwise.


Sample Team:

Ninjask (M) @ Liechi Berry
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 226 Atk/108 Def/176 Spd
Jolly nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Substitute
- Swords Dance
- X-Scissor
- Baton Pass
---
Rayquaza @ Lum Berry
Ability: Air Lock
EVs: 242 Atk/252 Spd/16 SAtk
Naughty nature (+Atk, -SDef)
- Swords Dance
- Outrage
- Extremespeed
- Flamethrower
---
Deoxys-e @ Lum Berry
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 6 HP/252 SAtk/252 Spd
Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Spikes
- Taunt
- Stealth Rock
- Signal Beam
---
Mewtwo @ Light Clay
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP/6 Atk/252 Spd
Jolly nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Reflect
- Light Screen
- Taunt
- Selfdestruct
---
Mew @ Lum Berry
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 HP/68 Spd/190 SDef
Calm nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Swords Dance
- Rock Polish
- Taunt
- Baton Pass
---
Dialga @ Lum Berry
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 6 HP/252 Atk/252 Spd
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Bulk Up
- Outrage
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
---
 
Please do damage calcs before you say things like that, as Jolly Deoxys-A is unable to actually OHKO Ninjask with ExtremeSpeed.
On another note, I'm working on drafting another EV spread for Ninjask. I've calculated that 108 Def EVs ensures that Deoxys-A's Extremespeed maxes out at 74.90%, so you can Substitute in peace and pass away +1 Atk and +1 Speed with a pinch berry, more with the use of Protect. So basically you can put 108 EVs in Defense, max out attack, and put the rest in Speed, which will be the best spread for Ninjasks using Substitute.

EDIT: Man, this guy is fun as a lead, and what's more, he can reliably pull off a Baton Pass! See below for my future plans.
Ninjask (M) @ Liechi Berry / Leftovers
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 226 Atk/108 Def/176 Spd
Jolly nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Substitute
- Swords Dance / Protect
- X-Scissor
- Baton Pass
---

Despite my mediocrity at playing support-oriented teams, I have been having way too much fun with this Ninjask (in bed). I've collected 7 logs thusfar, and other players have reported success with Noobjask as well. Therefore, I will probably submit it to C&C.
 
I just have a quick comment,
on the first set (Jolly 176 Speed EV's) you mentioned that one of it's problems was Deoxys A which outspeeds and KO'es according to what you wrote. The third set on the other hand, (Jolly 176 Speed EV's) somehow outspeeds Deoxys A, even though both of them get the same stat in Speed. However, this would make sense if the third set would use Protect and then outspeed, but that isn't what you stated.
 
Oops, I didn't edit the post properly. With my new spread, Deoxys-A is beaten, making the reliable choice to use Substitute no matter what set you face. Of course, the problem is dealing with one of those old-style immediate damage Deoxys-A leads, and its recommended that you have a Dialga or a Palkia as one of your recipients to deal with them (Superpower doesn't OHKO Dialga), because no player in his right mind would use Superpower against a Ninjask.

Hell, you can even try Ho-oh as a recipient because it can beat Deoxys-A and abuse Roost with its great defenses and now great speed. But the problem is that a Kyogre might come in to ruin your fun, although a +1 Adamant Brave Bird is a OHKO. Hmmmm....I gotta try this out!
 
In my tests, I used Groudon, Dialga, Palkia, and Rayquaza. I have not looked into Giratina-O, but I will draft a team for it. I think I can get away with restructuring my old team, though, and just sliding it in over Rayquaza.
 
I played quite a few people on smogon ladder with ninjasks. One thing i noticed is that they usually wait and not use it as a lead. I faced this one dude that had a support mewtwo to support ninjask, and he had a forretress. Although, he didnt even pass a speed boost because he failed to blow SR away.

Im building a team with ninjask in it now. And i will send some logs on how it does.
 
Yeah, I know that many players would advocate using Ninjask outside the lead role, because using it as a lead kinda gives away your hand. However, I support Ninjask being played in the lead role because it has relatively favorable matchups against quite a few leads. Theorymon told me he even used Wobbuffet to support a Ninjask during testing.
 
What about a choice banded cleaner of sorts? I'm sure that x-scizzor could to a lot to most of the metagame, despite his lacking attack.
 

askaninjask

[FLAIL ARMS]
is a Forum Moderator Alumnus
I must say, I am partial to Ninjask for reasons mostly unrelated to its effectiveness in Ubers. However, I have used it on a few teams, and I found it very useful against several of the metagame's most prominent scarfers, even when it is not used as a lead.

I used this Ninjask set:
Ninjask @ Focus Sash / Leftovers (I used Leftovers, as it wasn't my lead)
- Protect
- Baton Pass
- X-Scissor
- Aerial Ace
252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe

Three of the fastest and most devastating scarfers in the metagame are Darkrai, Mewtwo, and Shaymin-S. Ninjask can reliably revenge kill these scarfers, having super effective attacks against all of them; being able to outspeed all of them after a single Protect and a speed boost helps too. Ninjask may not be able to OHKO them, but after a little bit of damage has been done, they have to think twice before staying in, leaving ample time to Baton Pass your boosts.
 
Obviously mtr`s spread is the better one, why do you need 460 speed, I`d rather live through Deoxys Extremespeed.

note: I watched some of Legends Never Die`s battles, he had a Ninjask (not a lead), with Dual-Screen support and a Spinner, it was at +2 Attack +2 Speed almost every battle, and his Giratina-o (Shadow Force, Earthquake, Dragon Claw and Shadow Sneak iirc) ripped teams apart.
 
I made a test baton pass Ninjask team. Although it looks like it would fail miserably, it can usually destroy the common team. I only have trouble with Roar and Whirlwind. I've used Forretress instead of Jirachi to Rapid Spin, but I'm trying out Jirachi. Jirachi is meant to cripple any guys who could pose a threat to Ninjask, or to just buy a turn for Ninjask. Forretress has worked well too, but I think Jirachi plays a better role if Giratina-O is to fall, since Giratina is the main sweeper.

Another cool thing about Ninjask is that it can destroy things itself. Latios and Latias who try to set up or even Garchomp who tries to Substitute find themselves being attacked by Ninjask.




Deoxys-e @ Focus Sash
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 212 Atk/252 Spd/44 SAtk
Naive nature (+Spd, -SDef)
- Stealth Rock
- Spikes
- Signal Beam
- Taunt
---
Ninjask (M) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 HP/16 Def/240 SDef
Jolly nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Swords Dance
- X-Scissor
- Baton Pass
- Protect
---
Wobbuffet (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Shadow Tag
EVs: 252 HP/36 Def/220 SDef
Calm nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Encore
- Mirror Coat
- Counter
- Safeguard
---
Giratina-o @ Platinum Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 236 HP/212 Atk/60 Spd
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Dragon Claw
- Earthquake
- Shadow Sneak
- Shadow Force
---
Jirachi @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 4 HP/252 Atk/252 Spd
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Iron Head
- Ice Punch
- Fire Punch
- Trick
---
Mewtwo @ Light Clay
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 248 HP/232 Spd/28 SDef
Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Light Screen
- Reflect
- Safeguard
- Taunt
---
 
Well, I tested Giratina-O today and its quite fun and useful, so I will mention it in the analysis. The set I used is listed below. However, Offensive BU Dialga already handles priority on my team, so I preferred Rayquaza. On any team with Ninjask in it, Dialga is a highly recommended.

Giratina-o @ Platinum Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 6 HP/252 Atk/252 Spd
Naughty nature (+Atk, -SDef)
- Outrage
- Earthquake
- Shadow Sneak
- Draco Meteor
---

What I have left to do is test Garchomp. Also, some guy confused my alt (Nestor) for xtreemasheen today, which amused me.

Also, I'm posting my Ninjask team in the OP for anyone who wants to use it.
 

6A9 Ace Matador

veni, vidi, vici, VERSACE, VERSACE VERSACE
Why would a Deoxys-E Extremespeed instead of say Taunting and then switching? I like the idea, but I think leading with it isn't the best way of using it. Many leads can easily harm / cripple the receiver, and I think that's also a big issue with leading Ninjask :(
 
You misunderstand me. Deoxys-A is going to Extremespeed. Deoxys-S often uses Taunt, but in all my battles, they usually stay in to die, meaning that you go up 6-5. And what if Ninjask has to exit the field? No Stealth Rock means that he can come back later without penalty.
 

6A9 Ace Matador

veni, vidi, vici, VERSACE, VERSACE VERSACE
Why would Deoxys A Extremespeed instead of using something like Fire Punch or Ice Beam and then proceeding to Extremespeed once you're at bellow 70% though? I doubt the competance of the players you've been facing if they haven't thought of just breaking a sub or two then Extremespeeding !_! Oh and Deoxys-E should Taunt then switch and come in later to SR, the guys you played are making dumb moves lol.
 
Why would Deoxys A Extremespeed instead of using something like Fire Punch or Ice Beam and then proceeding to Extremespeed once you're at bellow 70% though? I doubt the competance of the players you've been facing if they haven't thought of just breaking a sub or two then Extremespeeding !_! Oh and Deoxys-E should Taunt then switch and come in later to SR, the guys you played are making dumb moves lol.
Immediate Damage Deoxys-A leads often don't possess Extremespeed. The Focus Sash Lead set often only has Superpower and Extremespeed as its attacks, and nobody in their right mind would Superpower a Ninjask. Also, if they use the strategy you mentioned, they run the risk of me predicting the second Fire Punch/Ice Beam and instead going to Dialga, who can survive a Superpower before killing off Deoxys-A. Granted, this isn't good for me because Scizor or Groudon can then come in to finish me off, but its better than losing Ninjask, who I still have. Also, assuming that an opponent has such a lead Deoxys-A AND Scizor is horribly pessimistic. Odds are then that I will lose, or have a real uphill battle just because of team disadvantage.
 

TEzeon

I'm a ramblin gamblin dude!
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
I have hardly played ubers since I started playing on shoddy battle, but the second Ninjask set mentioned can pass to Giratina-O for an easy sweep after a few swords dances and speed ups.
 

6A9 Ace Matador

veni, vidi, vici, VERSACE, VERSACE VERSACE
Immediate Damage Deoxys-A leads often don't possess Extremespeed. The Focus Sash Lead set often only has Superpower and Extremespeed as its attacks, and nobody in their right mind would Superpower a Ninjask. Also, if they use the strategy you mentioned, they run the risk of me predicting the second Fire Punch/Ice Beam and instead going to Dialga, who can survive a Superpower before killing off Deoxys-A. Granted, this isn't good for me because Scizor or Groudon can then come in to finish me off, but its better than losing Ninjask, who I still have. Also, assuming that an opponent has such a lead Deoxys-A AND Scizor is horribly pessimistic. Odds are then that I will lose, or have a real uphill battle just because of team disadvantage.
If they Extremespeed then break your subs or you protect get hit with Extremespeed then BP, Deoxys can take a hit (sash), attack then Extremespeed. Then assuming the team has another scarfer say Palkia or a priority user such as Rayquaza or Scizor is not too unlikely. o.o
 
I have used Ninjask for my Uber baton pass team with great success. I've built my team to deal with most of the threats listed, the only time I lose is if I keep getting phazed with Roar from Groudon/Lugia or an unlucky crit to ruin my chain.

Of course I like to use Ninjask for chains since you can boost your defenses but it can also be used to help something like Groudon sweep. For a "short chain" I prefer mew who can use rock polish and nasty plot/swords dance. After a rock polish mew can outspeed almost all taunters to prevent phazing.

Oh and you said Wobby was a threat...my chain team loves that blue blob. If my opponent is stupid enough to bring Wobby in I baton pass to Umbreon and follow with a Mean Look. After that you are free to boost up your stats as much as you want
 
I use Ninjask on my only Uber team and it works really well. I use some of the sweepers you list up there, in addition to sub CM Kyogre. What makes Kyogre work well is the Special Defense; most attacks in Ubers are special, so a lot of times bringing in Groudon isn't an option. Practically everything uses Ice Beam in Ubers, which Kyogre can easily come in on. If they are using Thunder, then just go to Groudon. Resisting Bullet Punch is nice too, since CB Scizor will often come in to try and stop Ninjask. If you manage to get your Ninjask's sub up, you get a free sub for Kyogre when they switch. Often they will bring in Blissey, which Sub CM Kyogre will beat. If they bring in Lati@s, get one hit, then bring in Ninjask to finish it if you can predict a Calm Mind. It may not be quite as destructive as Groudon, but it is much easier to pass to. On the down side, it can't touch Shedinja or Quagsire.

Aside from Baton Passing, X-Scissor can revenge a lot of Weakened Ubers, and combined with Extremespeed from Rayquaza, can kill just about any Psychic or Dark sweeper.
 
I have also used Ninjask in my Ubers Baton Pass team, and I must say, it works pretty well. Against Deoxys-S leads, I X-Scissor in case they taunt, but for every other lead, I just sub down to my Leichi and Baton Pass +4 speed and +1 attack to one of my sweepers. I have one question though. Because Ninjask is a lead, how do you find time to set up dual screens? The point of this is to Baton Pass to a sweeper, but if I go straight from Ninjask to my sweeper, I don't set up dual screens. I just don't understand how to set up dual screens while still Baton Passing to a sweeper without having the dual screener as your lead.
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top