CAP Updates: Tomohawk Discussion--COMPLETE

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To approach this from a bit of a different angle from Deck, rather than just looking at percentages and type correlation, I've started by looking at new moves that any given Pokemon would be likely to get. What I mean by this are the moves that newly became TMs, HMs or Tutor moves since the Pokemon's release, or what I like to think of as "easily accessible" moves. Tomohawk was created at the beginning of gen 5. As such, thinking from a consistency standpoint, it could easily have gained gen 5 tutor moves that came out later in the generation, as well as new TMs and tutors from gen 6 and 7. I'm going to start by just dumping all of the info on those moves:

Note that this is not a list of moves I believe Tomohawk should get. All this is is simply moves that were not "easily accessible" at the time of Tomohawk's creation, but became "easily accessible" at some point between then and now. My comments on the moves are below.



Orange moves, such as Heat Wave and Hyper Voice are moves already learned by Tomohawk. As such, they are irrelevant to discussion here, but we should remember to add the appropriate TMs or tutors to Tomo's movepool data on PS.

Blue moves, or should I say move, is Earth Power, which we have voted to remove. As such, it has no place in discussion here.

Yellow moves, such as Confide, are universal, and all Pokemon who get TM or Tutor moves typically get these. As such, Tomohawk should probably get these moves, and I doubt anyone would have any issue with that.

Red moves are those that I personally thought might have some competitive use on Tomohawk. While we do not have to avoid any and every move that could be competitive, we want to avoid anything that Tomo might even slightly consider actually using outside a very rare gimmick. I may have been conservative here, and some people might disagree, and that is OK. But as with normal movepool flavor moves, anything that is more than a rare gimmick should not even be under consideration.

The remaining uncolored moves are those that don't fall under any of the above categories. If we want to make any other additions beyond the universal moves, there are the kind of moves that are ideal to draw from.

So, with all that in mind, some moves I think might be good to give Tomohawk are:

  • Confide [Gen 6 & 7 TM] - A universal move.
  • Helping Hand [Gen 5 & 6 Tutor] - Nearly universal among fighting types. Only Scraggy and Scrafty lacked it among fighting types who existed those gens.
  • Iron Tail [Gen 5 & 6 Tutor] - Tomohawk has a tail, and this move is practically universal among tailed Pokemon.
  • Power-Up Punch [Gen 6 TM] - The only fighting types available in Gen 6 not to get it were Heracross, Hitmontop, Tyrogue and ones without arms, so the correlation is very high.
  • Sky Attack [Gen 5 & 6 Tutor] - it is a fully evolved flying type Pokemon based on a bird. All but one Pokemon that fits those criteria and existed in gen 6 get it.
  • Sleep Talk [Gen 5 Tutor + Gen 6 & 7 TM] - a universal move.
  • Snore [Gen 5 & 6 Tutor] - a universal move.
  • Steel Wing [Gen 6 & 7 TM] - its a bird with wings, and this move is pretty much universal in that group.
On the other hand, some move that have been suggested that I am not sold on are the following:

  • Low Sweep [Gen 5, 6 & 7 TM] - As this was a Gen 5 TM, and not a Tutor, that means we could have given it to Tomohawk when it was created, but it did not get it. As such, I don't see a good reason to change the initial decision on this move. It is very rare for a Pokemon to get access to a TM it didn't get in past generation.
  • Low Kick [Gen 5 & 6 Tutor] - While there is high correlation between this move and fighting types, it is very similar to Low Sweep, and I prefer to keep the two of them together. In this case that means I don't see a reason for it.
  • Payback [Gen 5, 6 & 7 TM] - Just like with Low Sweep, this is a move that was available at the time, and we didn't give it to Tomohawk, even though it had type correlation. I don't see a good reason to change that. Again, it is very rare for a Pokemon to get access to a TM it didn't get in past generation.

That's it from me for now. Though, I will add that I totally support adding Scratch for Scratchet purposes as well.
With my new knowledge on Confide, I'm in support of the list. However, other move I would like to mention from you list is Aqua Tail. Tomo has a tail, and a crap ton of different types of Pokemon learn Aqua Tail via move tutor, so I dont see why Tomohawk shouldn't get it. Heck, Giratina-O gets it from move tutor, and I don't even see a tail on that! Also, the description for the move is "The user attacks by swinging its tail as if it were a vicious wave in a raging storm." Since Tomo is based off of an aztec warrior, wouldn't it make sense for a Tomohawk to use this as some sort of dance?
 

reachzero

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After looking over the discussion, it is pretty clear that there are more than one or two moves that need to be added, but at least there is intelligent community consensus for several, including Steel Wing, Iron Tail, Snore, Confide, Sky Attack and Helping Hand. These will be added to Tomohawk's movepool.

Sleep Talk, however, is another story. It was intentionally disallowed during Tomohawk's original process because of its interactions with Prankster, and those interactions still apply. Sleep Talk will remain disallowed.

On the other hand, there has been support for Flying Press, but this is a rare and specific case, as it is currently exclusive to Hawlucha. Because of the rarity of the move involved, there will be a poll to decide whether or not Tomohawk will gain Flying Press.
 

reachzero

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It pains me to say it, but in order to completely confirm where each of the new moves belongs, we need to take complete movepool submissions and have a poll, as we just witnessed with Voodoom. Please post your submissions here! Please note the new moves listed above, and please note that Sleep Talk is not permitted.

Please note that Tomohawk's pre-update movepool can be found at http://www.smogon.com/cap/pokemon/moves/tomohawk.

 
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WIP
New moves are bolded. Removed moved are crossed out. Relocated moves are in italics.

0 Sunny Day
0 Aura Sphere
0 Fury Swipes
0 Harden
4 Scratch
8 Fury Swipes
11 Harden
15 Aerial Ace
18 Morning Sun
21 Whirlwind
Evo. Air Cutter
25
Rain Dance
30 Earth Power Aqua Tail
36
Air Slash
42 Submission
47 Heat Wave
52 Hyper Voice
58 Sky Drop
63 Superpower
69 Rest
75 Hurricane


Egg Moves (Field & Flying Groups)

Baton Pass
Confuse Ray
Haze
Memento
Rapid Spin
Roost
Stealth Rock
Yawn
Healing Wish (Lopunny)

TM Moves

TM01 Work Up
TM06 Toxic
TM08 Bulk Up
TM10 Hidden Power
TM12 Taunt
TM15 Hyper Beam
TM17 Protect
TM18 Rain Dance
TM20 Safeguard
TM21 Frustration
TM22 Solar Beam
TM26 Earthquake
TM27 Return
TM31 Brick Break
TM32 Double Team
TM33 Reflect
TM39 Rock Tomb
TM40 Aerial Ace
TM42 Facade
TM44 Rest
TM45 Attract
TM46 Thief
TM48 Round
TM49 Echoed Voice
TM51 Steel Wing
TM52 Focus Blast
TM54 False Swipe
TM56 Fling
TM58 Sky Drop
TM60 Quash
TM62 Acrobatics
TM68 Giga Impact
TM71 Stone Edge
TM76 Fly
TM78 Bulldoze
TM80 Rock Slide
TM86 Grass Knot
TM87 Swagger
TM90 Substitute
TM94 Rock Smash
TM100 Confide

Old Gen TMs

Secret Power (Formerly TM43)
Incinerate (Formerly TM59)
Retaliate (Formerly TM67)
Flash (Formerly TM70)
Strength (Formerly HM04)
Power-Up Punch (Formerly TM98)

Tutor Moves
Helping Hand (BW2/ORAS)
Fire Punch (BW2/ORAS)
Ice Punch (BW2/ORAS)
Thunder Punch (BW2/ORAS)
Iron Tail (BW2/ORAS)
Sky Attack (BW2/ORAS)
Snore (BW2/ORAS)
Dual Chop (BW2/ORAS)

(For explanations, I will not cover moves that we have already all agreed on)

Scratch is for Scratchet. Need I say more?

Air Cutter is really good, as it will be outclassed by Air Slash and Hurricane, and it is the first special flying move it gets in its movepool. As such, I made it an evolution move.

Aqua Tail is nice, as it comes after Rain Dance, and the description of the move is that the user waves their tail as if it was a wave in a storm. Seeing as how it's an aztec warrior, it would make sense for it to dance like this. Also, it works really well from an in-game perspective when combined with Rain Dance and provides neutral coverage, even if it's garbage competitively.

I moved Healing Wish to be an egg move, as it seemed out of place in the level-up movepool. If CAPmons were official, it would be the only Fighting OR Flying type to learn Healing Wish via level up. Thusly, I moved it to be an egg move.

Dual Chop is learned by a lot of fighting types, and if it can use Brick Break (which seems to be a sort of Karate chop), then this should be fine.
 
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snake

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Evolve: Whirlwind
00 Sunny Day
00 Aura Sphere
00 Fury Swipes
00 Harden
08 Fury Swipes
13 Harden
17 Aerial Ace
20 Morning Sun
23 Whirlwind
29 Rain Dance
33 Earth Power Rototiller
37 Air Slash
42 Submission
45 Heat Wave
49 Hyper Voice
50 Sky Drop
51 Superpower
53 Rest
55 Hurricane
60 Healing Wish
Baton Pass
Confuse Ray
Haze
Memento
Rapid Spin
Roost
Stealth Rock
Yawn
TM01 Work Up
TM06 Toxic
TM08 Bulk Up
TM10 Hidden Power
TM12 Taunt
TM15 Hyper Beam
TM17 Protect
TM18 Rain Dance
TM20 Safeguard
TM21 Frustration
TM22 Solar Beam
TM26 Earthquake
TM27 Return
TM31 Brick Break
TM32 Double Team
TM33 Reflect
TM39 Rock Tomb
TM40 Aerial Ace
TM42 Facade
TM44 Rest
TM45 Attract
TM46 Thief
TM48 Round
TM49 Echoed Voice
TM51 Steel Wing
TM52 Focus Blast
TM54 False Swipe
TM56 Fling
TM58 Sky Drop
TM60 Quash
TM62 Acrobatics
TM68 Giga Impact
TM71 Stone Edge
TM76 Fly
TM78 Bulldoze
TM80 Rock Slide
TM86 Grass Knot
TM87 Swagger
TM90 Substitute
TM94 Rock Smash
TM100 Confide
Sky Attack
Iron Tail
Helping Hand
Snore
Secret Power (Formerly TM43)
Incinerate (Formerly TM59)
Retaliate (Formerly TM67)
Flash (Formerly TM70)
Strength (Formerly HM04)
 
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Final Submission

0 Sunny Day
0 Aura Sphere
0 Fury Swipes
0 Harden
8 Fury Swipes
13 Harden
17 Aerial Ace
20 Morning Sun
23 Whirlwind
29 Rain Dance
33 Earth Power Air Slash
37 Submission
42 Heat Wave
45 Hyper Voice
49 Sky Drop
50 Superpower
51 Sky Attack
53 Rest
55 Hurricane
60 Healing Wish

For Level Up, it was obviously necessary to remove Earth Power, so I went ahead and did that. Eventually I decided to add in Sky Attack at a later level, since (to me at least) Tomo looks like something that would get it just by leveling, and then shifted everything back one slot until Earth Power's slot was filled in. The bolded levels represent those moves which were shifted back by one slot. Oh, and since I'm like the only one not adding Scratch, I'll explain my reasoning. There are many instances of weird movepool choices in the Pokémon Universe, and as Tomo already learns Fury Swipes, I simply don't understand the point in adding another similar move to the move list. It seems redundant.
(Field & Flying Groups)

Baton Pass
Confuse Ray
Haze
Memento
Nature Power
Rapid Spin
Roost
Stealth Rock
Yawn

Fixed to have Nature Power.
TM01 Work Up
TM06 Toxic
TM08 Bulk Up
TM10 Hidden Power
TM12 Taunt
TM15 Hyper Beam
TM17 Protect
TM18 Rain Dance
TM20 Safeguard
TM21 Frustration
TM22 Solar Beam
TM26 Earthquake
TM27 Return
TM31 Brick Break
TM32 Double Team
TM33 Reflect
TM39 Rock Tomb
TM40 Aerial Ace
TM42 Facade
TM44 Rest
TM45 Attract
TM46 Thief
TM48 Round
TM49 Echoed Voice
TM51 Steel Wing
TM52 Focus Blast
TM54 False Swipe
TM56 Fling
TM58 Sky Drop
TM60 Quash
TM62 Acrobatics
TM68 Giga Impact
TM71 Stone Edge
TM76 Fly
TM78 Bulldoze
TM80 Rock Slide
TM86 Grass Knot
TM87 Swagger
TM90 Substitute
TM94 Rock Smash
TM100 Confide

For TMs, all I did was add Steel Wing and Confide plus Remove Reflect.
Snore (ORAS)
Helping Hand (ORAS)
Iron Tail (ORAS)
Aqua Tail (ORAS)

I used Tutor moves for Snore and Helping Hand along with the two tail moves mentioned (Iron and Aqua).
Secret Power (Formerly TM43)
Incinerate (Formerly TM59)
Retaliate (Formerly TM67)
Flash (Formerly TM70)
Strength (Formerly HM04)
Power-Up Punch (Formerly TM98)

Former TMs I've just added Power-Up Punch because it's nearly universal on fighting types with arms, which Tomo definitely kind of has.

This is my first time doing one of these so, hopefully this was ok. If there are any problems, just notify me and I'll change them lickety-split.
 
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Deck Knight

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Final Submission:

Level-Up:
Evo: Air Slash
0 Sunny Day
0 Aura Sphere
0 Fury Swipes
0 Harden
5 Scratch
8 Fury Swipes
13 Harden
17 Aerial Ace
20 Morning Sun
23 Whirlwind
29 Rain Dance
33 Air Slash
37 Aura Sphere
42 Submission
45 Heat Wave
49 Hyper Voice
50 Sky Drop
51 Superpower
53 Rest
55 Hurricane
60 Healing Wish

Changes: Added Scratch, Removed Earth Power.
Additions here:
Scratch: It's pre-vo is Scratchet. About time Tomo got Scratch.
Air Slash is now an evolution move, and replaced Earth Power at L33. Aura Sphere is duplicated where Air Slash was (L37).

Egg Moves:
Baton Pass
Confuse Ray
Haze
Memento
Rapid Spin
Roost
Stealth Rock
Yawn


Additions here:
None

TMs:
TM01 Work Up
TM06 Toxic
TM08 Bulk Up
TM10 Hidden Power
TM12 Taunt
TM15 Hyper Beam
TM17 Protect
TM18 Rain Dance
TM20 Safeguard
TM21 Frustration
TM22 Solar Beam
TM26 Earthquake
TM27 Return
TM31 Brick Break
TM32 Double Team
TM39 Rock Tomb
TM40 Aerial Ace
TM42 Facade
TM44 Rest
TM45 Attract
TM46 Thief
TM48 Round
TM49 Echoed Voice
TM51 Steel Wing
TM52 Focus Blast
TM54 False Swipe
TM56 Fling
TM58 Sky Drop
TM60 Quash
TM62 Acrobatics
TM68 Giga Impact
TM71 Stone Edge
TM76 Fly
TM78 Bulldoze
TM80 Rock Slide
TM86 Grass Knot
TM87 Swagger
TM90 Substitute
TM94 Rock Smash
TM95 Snarl
TM100 Confide


Changes: Removed Reflect, Added Confide, Snarl, Steel Wing, Work Up

Additions here:
Confide: Universal TM
Steel Wing: Nearly every mon with wings learns it.
Snarl: Basically every cat-like Pokemon (esp. lions) learns this.

Transfer Only:

Past-Gen TMs:
Secret Power (Formerly TM43)
Incinerate (Formerly TM59)
Power-Up Punch (Gen 6 TM98)
Retaliate (Formerly TM67)
Roost (Formerly TM19)
Flash (Formerly TM70)
Strength (Formerly HM04)


Tutor Moves:
Gen 5:
Aqua Tail
Fire Punch

Heat Wave
Helping Hand
Hyper Voice
Last Resort
Low Kick
Iron Tail
Roost
Sky Attack
Snore

Stealth Rock
Superpower
Uproar

Gen 6:
Aqua Tail
Fire Punch
Focus Punch

Heat Wave
Helping Hand
Hyper Voice
Last Resort
Low Kick
Iron Tail
Sky Attack
Snore

Stealth Rock
Superpower
Uproar


Additions here:
Aqua Tail: Access to Rain Dance and Hurricane makes a tail move boosted in Rain flavorful.
Fire Punch: Tomohawk already has Heat Wave. Fire physical coverage is fitting.
Focus Punch: Every fighting-type with hands gets this.
Helping Hand: Nearly all Normal or Fighting types get this Tutor.
Last Resort: Seems like a fitting Momentum themed move.
Iron Tail: Most Pokemon with tails get this move.
Power-Up Punch: Every fighting type with hands gets this.
Sky Attack: Winged-Flying types learn this.
Snore: Universal Tutor
Uproar: A significant number of winged Flying types get this.

Removals Index:
Earth Power
Reflect

Additions Index:
Aqua Tail (Past Gen Tutor)
Confide (Universal TM)
Fire Punch (Past Gen Tutor)
Focus Punch (Past Gen Tutor)
Helping Hand (Past Gen Tutor)
Iron Tail (Past Gen Tutor)
Last Resort (Past Gen Tutor)
Power-Up Punch (Past Gen TM)
Scratch (Level-Up)
Sky Attack (Past Gen Tutor)
Snarl (TM)
Snore (Past Gen Tutor)
Steel Wing (TM)
Uproar (Past Gen Tutor)
14 Moves
 
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LucarioOfLegends

Master Procraster
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Final Submission

Level-Up

0 Sunny Day
0 Aura Sphere
0 Fury Swipes
0 Harden
4 Scratch
8 Fury Swipes
13 Harden
17 Aerial Ace
20 Morning Sun
23 Whirlwind
29 Rain Dance
33 Earth Power Air Slash
37 Submission
42 Heat Wave
45 Hyper Voice
49 Sky Drop
50 Superpower
51 Hurricane
53 Rest
55 Sky Attack
60 Healing Wish

I added Scratch at level 4, as it is usually a very early and common move on any Pokemon, and it makes far too much sense considering its prevo is called Scratchet. I removed Earth Power and moved Air Slash into the slot, while shifting the remaining moves up to the place of the move before it. I did switch the placement of Rest and Hurricane, as the three consecutive moves make far less sense with Rest being awkwardly placed. Finally, I added Sky Attack, as it makes perfect sense with Tomohawk's abilities as a god of fertility, a number of winged Flying types get it, and similar Pokemon in backstory Sigilyph also gets it via level up.

Egg Moves
Baton Pass
Confuse Ray
Haze
Memento
Nature Power
Rapid Spin
Roost
Stealth Rock
Yawn


No new additions here, but for some reason Nature Power is not listed in its egg moves, although that is how it is supposed to get it. Must have been a typo. So dudes (and dudettes for Rev), don't forget to add this.

TM Moves

TM01 Work Up
TM05 Roar
TM06 Toxic
TM08 Bulk Up
TM10 Hidden Power
TM12 Taunt
TM15 Hyper Beam
TM17 Protect
TM18 Rain Dance
TM19 Roost
TM20 Safeguard
TM21 Frustration
TM22 Solar Beam
TM26 Return
TM27 Earthquake
TM31 Brick Break
TM32 Return
TM39 Rock Tomb
TM40 Aerial Ace
TM42 Facade
TM44 Rest
TM45 Attract
TM46 Thief
TM48 Round
TM49 Echoed Voice
TM51 Steel Wing
TM52 Focus Blast
TM54 False Swipe
TM56 Fling
TM58 Sky Drop
TM60 Quash
TM62 Acrobatics
TM68 Giga Impact
TM71 Stone Edge
TM76 Fly
TM78 Bulldoze
TM80 Rock Slide
TM86 Grass Knot
TM87 Swagger
TM90 Substitute
TM100 Confide


Added the universal TM in Confide as well as Steel Wing, as a ton of Flying types get it and its pretty not great competitively. Removed Reflect as well, according to our updates. Also, since its no longer a TM, Fly was added to remain consistent with its HM movepool. And since Roost is back as a TM, might as well add it here.

Transfer Only TMs
Secret Power (BW/ORAS)
Incinerate (BW/ORAS)
Retaliate (BW/ORAS)
Flash (BW/ORAS)
Rock Smash (BW/ORAS)
Strength (BW/ORAS)
Power-Up Punch (ORAS)


Most of these moves are missing on the new TM list, and Strength didn't turn into a TM after the HM removal. Power-Up Punch is a fitting move in this scenario, and can be learned in Gen 6.

Move Tutor
Snore
Iron Tail
Aqua Tail
Helping Hand


Only added the required moves in Snore, Iron Tail, and Helping Hand, as well as the flavorfully sound Aqua Tail. Nothing else really appealed to me as something that totally fits with Tomohawk. I'd give it Tailwind, but it has far too much potential usage.
 
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reachzero

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This officially brings us to the end of the Generation 7 update for Tomohawk! In this update, all of the changes to Tomohawk came in its movepool, most noticeably with the loss of Reflect and Earth Power. Tomohawk's new movepool, as designed by LucarioOfLegends, can be found here.

Final Submission

Level-Up
Lvl. Up (close)

0 Sunny Day
0 Aura Sphere
0 Fury Swipes
0 Harden
4 Scratch
8 Fury Swipes
13 Harden
17 Aerial Ace
20 Morning Sun
23 Whirlwind
29 Rain Dance
33 Earth Power Air Slash
37 Submission
42 Heat Wave
45 Hyper Voice
49 Sky Drop
50 Superpower
51 Hurricane
53 Rest
55 Sky Attack
60 Healing Wish

I added Scratch at level 4, as it is usually a very early and common move on any Pokemon, and it makes far too much sense considering its prevo is called Scratchet. I removed Earth Power and moved Air Slash into the slot, while shifting the remaining moves up to the place of the move before it. I did switch the placement of Rest and Hurricane, as the three consecutive moves make far less sense with Rest being awkwardly placed. Finally, I added Sky Attack, as it makes perfect sense with Tomohawk's abilities as a god of fertility, a number of winged Flying types get it, and similar Pokemon in backstory Sigilyph also gets it via level up.

Egg Moves
Egg (close)

Baton Pass
Confuse Ray
Haze
Memento
Nature Power
Rapid Spin
Roost
Stealth Rock
Yawn


No new additions here, but for some reason Nature Power is not listed in its egg moves, although that is how it is supposed to get it. Must have been a typo. So dudes (and dudettes for Rev), don't forget to add this.

TM Moves
TM (close)

TM01 Work Up
TM05 Roar
TM06 Toxic
TM08 Bulk Up
TM10 Hidden Power
TM12 Taunt
TM15 Hyper Beam
TM17 Protect
TM18 Rain Dance
TM19 Roost
TM20 Safeguard
TM21 Frustration
TM22 Solar Beam
TM26 Return
TM27 Earthquake
TM31 Brick Break
TM32 Return
TM39 Rock Tomb
TM40 Aerial Ace
TM42 Facade
TM44 Rest
TM45 Attract
TM46 Thief
TM48 Round
TM49 Echoed Voice
TM51 Steel Wing
TM52 Focus Blast
TM54 False Swipe
TM56 Fling
TM58 Sky Drop
TM60 Quash
TM62 Acrobatics
TM68 Giga Impact
TM71 Stone Edge
TM76 Fly
TM78 Bulldoze
TM80 Rock Slide
TM86 Grass Knot
TM87 Swagger
TM90 Substitute
TM100 Confide


Added the universal TM in Confide as well as Steel Wing, as a ton of Flying types get it and its pretty not great competitively. Removed Reflect as well, according to our updates. Also, since its no longer a TM, Fly was added to remain consistent with its HM movepool. And since Roost is back as a TM, might as well add it here.

Transfer Only TMs
Transfer (close)

Secret Power (BW/ORAS)
Incinerate (BW/ORAS)
Retaliate (BW/ORAS)
Flash (BW/ORAS)
Rock Smash (BW/ORAS)
Strength (BW/ORAS)
Power-Up Punch (ORAS)


Most of these moves are missing on the new TM list, and Strength didn't turn into a TM after the HM removal. Power-Up Punch is a fitting move in this scenario, and can be learned in Gen 6.

Move Tutor
Tutor (close)

Snore
Iron Tail
Aqua Tail
Helping Hand


Only added the required moves in Snore, Iron Tail, and Helping Hand, as well as the flavorfully sound Aqua Tail. Nothing else really appealed to me as something that totally fits with Tomohawk. I'd give it Tailwind, but it has far too much potential usage.

I am thankful for everyone who cooperated to work on this update, and I'm looking forward to see each of the others develop!
 
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