CAP Updates: Naviathan Discussion (Complete)

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boxofkangaroos

this is the day of the expanding man


Naviathan Update Discussion

Welcome to the update discussion for CAP 20, Naviathan! As your Update Leader, I will kick off this discussion and guide it with a variety of questions. As we know, Naviathan was one of the more recent CAP creations, and the first CAP of the ORAS metagame. With a firm concept and a solid build, the process ran smoothly, but the final result leaves quite a bit to be desired competitively.

Naviathan's concept was "Use the Boost to Get Through": a sweeper that can function in two completely different ways using two different boosting moves (more below). In the concept assessment stage, it was decided that this CAP would be able to utilize either Dragon Dance or Calm Mind, a combination that has never properly existed before. The Dragon Dance set would take advantage of coverage options to hit a variety of threats after a single boost, while the Calm Mind set would mainly be reliant on just one attacking move. This duality of roles did create a sort of limitation when it came to the base stats stage, as the stats had to be strong enough to support both sets without becoming too polarized in a certain field.

Name: Use the Boost to Get Through!

General Description: A sweeper with several boosting options that result in completely different checks and counters. While each set should be viable in its own right, the unpredictability of this Pokemon should make it much better than any one set alone.

Justification: In the early days of Pokemon X and Y, we experienced the first Pokemon that could (viably) boost and sweep from either the physical or special side: Mega Lucario. While it was clear his unpredictability could have a devastating effect (having your Chansey eat a Close Combat, Will-O-Wisping on the Nasty Plot, etc.) the true extent to which this could make a Pokemon better was masked by the fact that Lucario's sets were both already amazing. The purpose of this concept would therefore be to explore the impact of unpredictability in sweepers by creating a Pokemon that can run several boosting sets, none of which are dominant in their own right, but that when combined can result in an extremely dangerous threat.

Questions To Be Answered:
  • Is there a limit to how much unpredictability can make a Pokemon better? Can it make a decent Pokemon great? Or can it only make them usable?
  • How does being unpredictable with boosting options compare to other forms of unpredictability (such as uncommon coverage moves or trying to speed creep certain threats)? Is unpredictability in sweepers inherently more dangerous because of how easily they can win a game?
  • For a Pokemon that is already unpredictable, will we see the use of strange coverage moves (as many sweepers tend to run) or will it tend to stick to standard sets because it already has the element of surprise?
  • Which boosting moves are distinct enough to completely change a Pokemon's checks/counters? Are Swords Dance, Nasty Plot, and Agility the only ones that can fit this concept? Or is there a way to incorporate moves such as Dragon Dance without giving the Pokemon "the best of both worlds".
  • How effective will double boosting sets be on this Pokemon? Will the ability to "pick your counters" on a Pokemon already designed to bypass its counters be too good? Or can it be designed so that the loss of coverage will still leave it with several checks and counters on any set?
  • To what extent will teams have to prepare for this Pokemon? Will they have to pack several checks/counters like for M-Lucario? Or will they be able to just use a standard team so long as they can identify the set early?

With its intimidating movepool, good offensive stats, and decent defensive typing, Naviathan looks like it can sail straight through opposing teams with its boosting options. But as it stands, Naviathan is not the most relevant of sweepers in the metagame. Its main strong suit is its Calm Mind + Taunt set, which allows it to be a workable stallbreaker. With this set, it can potentially run through defensive teams in the late game, as long as its checks and counters have been removed. However, against most balance or offense teams, Calm Mind Naviathan is practically dead meat. It requires a ton of team support and loses to common threats like Tapu Koko, Mollux, and offensive Ground-types like Garchomp or Landorus. Then what about its Dragon Dance set, you may ask? Unfortunately, it's significantly worse. Its coverage is extremely subpar for a physical sweeper, and it is walled by several common Pokemon, such as Ferrothorn, Mollux, Pyroak, Krilowatt, and Rotom-W. In addition, its raw power is simply not enough, even after a Dragon Dance boost, partially due to the relatively low base power of its STAB moves. All of this leaves DD Naviathan outclassed by stronger Pokemon with better coverage options, such as Gyarados or Salamence.

With all that being said, let's weigh out the pros and cons of Naviathan in the gen 7 metagame.

PROS
  • Solid defensive typing with resistances to common attacking types like Fairy, Ice, Water, and Bug.
  • Good physical bulk that allows it to easily stomach neutral hits with some investment.
  • Decent abilities in Water Veil and Heatproof that either allow it to avoid the crippling Attack halving and chip damage of burns, or grant it a useful resistance to Fire.
  • Good mixed attacking stats and Speed.
  • Access to both Dragon Dance and Calm Mind hypothetically makes it unpredictable at team preview.
  • Access to utility moves like Scald, Taunt, and Haze.
  • Reliable recovery to provide longevity to the Calm Mind set.
  • Calm Mind + Taunt set allows it to function as a viable stallbreaker.
CONS
  • Bad Sp. Defense stat that makes it very frail on the special side without Calm Mind boosts.
  • Calm Mind sets lose to offensive teams.
  • Outsped at +1 by most Choice Scarf users.
  • Lackluster coverage that leaves it walled by many very common Pokemon.
  • Mediocre raw power, in part due to the low base power of its STAB moves, which forces it to rely on Life Orb.
  • Dragon Dance set is outclassed by stronger Pokemon with better coverage, like Gyarados or Salamence.
  • Not Showermon
Naviathan needs to be able to use both Calm Mind and Dragon Dance effectively in order to adhere to its concept and to gain back some of that long-lost unpredictability. I believe this update should focus on one or more of Naviathan's negative qualities in order to balance out the two sets and increase the viability of the Dragon Dance set. But now it's your turn to discuss this beautiful boat.

Discussion will begin with the following questions. Note that you should not be suggesting specific new moves or abilities yet:

1. What is your opinion on Naviathan's current place in the metagame?
2. What are the biggest limiting factors for each of Naviathan's sets?
3. How do Naviathan's abilities impact the success, or lack thereof, of its sets?
 
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snake

is a Community Leaderis a Top CAP Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
CAP Co-Leader
1. What is your opinion on Naviathan's current place in the metagame?

Naviathan is struggling a good bit nowadays. In Gen 6, its stallbreaking set had some utility outside of cracking open stall given that it could act as a Talonflame check, but today's metagame isn't too friendly to it, given that the Psychic- and Steel-types that it could check have Electric- or Fighting-type coverage it hit it.

2. What are the biggest limiting factors for each of Naviathan's sets?

I don't think Naviathan's Calm Mind set needs that much. Scald / Calm Mind / Taunt / Slack Off is powerful on its own, and Heatproof turns that neutrality into a resistance. I think this set is just fine.

Dragon Dance has a problem though. It's problem isn't its Speed: 97 Speed outpaces the unboosted meta at +1 and has a decent match up against two common scarfers, Tapu Lele and Volkraken, at +1. However, what Naviathan is missing is power behind its moves. It has a decent Attack stat, but it's not backed up by its ability or its weak moves in general. Its most powerful STAB moves are Waterfall and Iron Head, and its coverage moves, Wild Charge, Drill Peck, and Icicle Crash, don't help either. If we do anything to Naviathan, it's to buff it's damage output on Dragon Dance sets (but not excessively!).

3. How do Naviathan's abilities impact the success, or lack thereof, of its sets?


Heatproof is a really nice ability for Calm Mind sets. Turning a neutrality into a resistance is always valuable, letting it check Mega Charizard X, Aurumoth, and Volkraken much better, especially with Calm Mind boosts for the latter two. The burn nerf makes halving burn damage a little less attractive, but less damage is better! No problems here.

Water Veil, on the other hand, sucks. Naviathan doesn't appreciate burns on its Dragon Dance sets, but most things aren't going to want to burn it. Pyroak's Lava Plume burns are nice to avoid, but Rotom-W is just going to use Volt Switch cripple Naviathan anyway and just wall it indefinitely. Burns are less common than they were last gen as well. Therefore, I think Water Veil's inability to help Naviathan's physical sets as it was intended is the main problem with Dragon Dance sets.
 
1. What is your opinion on Naviathan's current place in the metagame?

Naviathan is in an odd place at the moment because it has all the tools necessary to make it a very powerful stallbreaker but it gets trapped by Dugtrio, who is one of the more common pokemon on stall right now. You can't simply patch up this issue with a shed shell either because Sableye can easily come in and use Knock Off on you. It's not a terrible stallbreaker by any means however as Dugtrio obviously cannot switch in safely because of Scald and Naviathan needs to be weakened for Dugtrio to OHKO. Outside of functioning as a stallbreaker, however, Naviathan can often feel like dead weight because it requires multiple Calm Mind boosts to pose a serious threat. With stuff like Tapu Koko, Cyclohm, Mollux, Plasmanta and Fighting and Ground coverage being prevalent in the current meta, Naviathan needs heaps of team support to severely weaken or remove these pokemon before it can make an impression at all.

2. What are the biggest limiting factors for each of Naviathan's sets?

To me, Naviathan's viability should stem from its unpredictable nature at team preview. In order to achieve this, both the Calm Mind set and Dragon Dance set need to be of a similar viability. So I think one of the biggest limiting factors of Navithan's Calm Mind set is the fact that the Dragon Dance set isn't all that viable which almost completely removes the ambiguous nature that Naviathan should boast. The Calm Mind set is actually pretty good despite this so I don't think it should receive that much attention. The Dragon Dance set, however, is almost completely outclassed by other common Dragon Dance users such as Gyarados, for example, who can use SSSS to hit Tomohawk and bulky Grass-types or Mega Evolve to gain Mold Breaker which lets it hit Rotom-W with Earthquake and break past Unaware users among other things. Of the common Dragon Dance users 4 of them have abilities which help them to set up with Salamence and Gyarados having Intimidate, Dragonite having Multiscale, and Aurumoth having bullshit Illusion. Charizard Mega X doesn't have an ability that helps it to set up but it does have Tough Claws which makes it a powerful threat even before boosts and also sports a burn immunity thanks to its typing. Based on this Naviathan doesn't have a lot else it can offer at the moment. It doesn't have the immediate power, unpredictability, or abilities which the other Dragon Dance users possess.
 

david0895

Mercy Main Btw
2. What are the biggest limiting factors for each of Naviathan's sets?

One of the biggest problem of Naviathan is the lack of the Ground coverage that would allow it to deal better the Steel types (Magnezone, Magearna, Mega Metagross, etc...)

3. How do Naviathan's abilities impact the success, or lack thereof, of its sets?


Talking about the Dragon Dance set, Water Veil is a good ability, but it's not so necessary, since you can use the Lum Berry with Heatproof to deal better with the Fire types.
 

reachzero

the pastor of disaster
is a Senior Staff Member Alumnusis a Top CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
1. What is your opinion on Naviathan's current place in the metagame?

I really want to like Naviathan. It has great typing, especially with Heatproof, that sounds like it should be a great counter to Scarf Volkraken, Aurumoth without Focus Blast (almost all of them), Mollux, etc.
Then I try using it, and I remember why I don't use it.

Both of its sets are underwhelming in the CAP metagame. The biggest single reason is a highly counterintuitive point: Water is a bad primary STAB now unless you have the coverage moves to deal with all the problems. Greninja works because Dark is such a good STAB, and Protean sidesteps the issue completely. Krilowatt works because Electric is a great STAB, especially with Water to complement it. Mollux, Tapu Fini, Cyclohm, Tapu Bulu, Ferrothorn and Arghonaut punish Water attackers in different ways, and it's hard to get exactly the right coverage.

2. What are the biggest limiting factors for each of Naviathan's sets?

Naviathan has two enormous issues with its CM set.

Scald is a bad mono-attack in today's CAP. If your opponent has Mollux or Cyclohm or Mega Slowbro, you cannot count on Naviathan doing anything the whole battle. You have one slot for coverage, and you don't even have that if have Taunt. Having Dugtrio helps, but they brings me to a second point...

Naviathan has physically defensive stats, but specially defensive typing. You really want it to take on stuff like Volkraken, but to do it you need to max out SpD, the stat you're boosting with Calm Mind anyway. You end up hugely weak to either physical or special threats, and particularly weak to Dugtrio, which is a crippling weakness against the team archetype you would most want to beat. Ferrothorn can't do anything do a max defense Taunt CM Naviathan, but a Naviathan EVed that way can't come in often enough to accomplish anything.

DD Naviathan is probably beyond saving. Power and lack of coverage are real issues, but where this stands out truly starkly is when you compare Naviathan to Z Fly Gyarados. The fact that Gyarados can destroy Haze Tomohawk and Earthquake Mollux, Cyclohm, etc is a huge advantage over Naviathan, more than offsetting Naviathan's excellent speed tier. Navi is so far behind here that I think it probably isn't realistically savable

3. How do Naviathan's abilities impact the success, or lack thereof, of its sets?

Heatproof is a godsend and one of the best possible abilities Naviathan could ask for. It makes Water/Steel typing truly amazing. Water Veil is much less useful because the things that use Lava Plume are not the things DD Navi will be setting up on, and Scald is much more rare now. I would probably use Heatproof on DD Navi now, and not regret it.
 
1. What is your opinion on Naviathan's current place in the metagame?

As one of the main stall players, I can actually give a pretty good opinion on this one. Navi of course has two sets, the DD set, and the CM set. The CM set as of now, is the better set, with it being able to take on stall... up until Gen VII hit. Gen VII gave a new buff to dugtrio, the trapper of the people, and this of course, hurt Navi's viability tremendously. Where it used to shine as the ORAS stallbreaker, it now only really deals with bulky offense teams well, and that performance leaves a lot to be desired. The DD set is in general very lackluster, and lacks the power to really warrant use on a team.

2. What are the biggest limiting factors for each of Naviathan's sets?

Calm Mind: This set is severely limited by two things, mono attacking scald, and that it is threatened a lot more by the new pokemon on the block. Mono scald can really be a detriment at times with things such as mollux and other bulky waters running around. This set is also threatened by many of the new gen 7 additions, as well as just struggling with any team remotely offensive, which would be remedied by the other set, which ill get into now.

Dragon Dance: By far one of the most lackluster sets any capmon has to offer. With its weak stab moves, lackluster coverage versus offense, and its overall weak damage output, DD Navi has become its worst set by far. This one will be hard to boost up to a viable standing in the metagame. Finding something to boost its strength, as well as better stab moves, while also keeping it from thrashing about too much will be a challenge.

3. How do Naviathan's abilities impact the success, or lack thereof, of its sets?

In theory water veil should be perfect for DD Navi, but as said earlier, that set falls flat on its face. On the more defensive side, heatproof is actually a really solid ability for sponging fire attacks that bulkier teams wish to dish out, but that does not help patch the giant hole in the boat, which is the poor defensive typing (physical defense) that Navi totes around.
 

Drapionswing

Eating it up, YUMMY!
is a CAP Contributor Alumnus
1. What is your opinion on Naviathan's current place in the metagame?
Naviathan was a really good CAP last gen being able to pressure any bulky team with Calm Mind sets, however it's performance this gen is quite shocking. It was a really good stallbreaker until Dugtrio Stall became popular and really made stallbreaking as a whole much more difficult for Naviathan. Not only this, but the meta really doesn't favour slow boosting pokemon. It favors quick and fast speed/power boosts and instant power to follow suite. Due to this I don't think naviathan actually has a place in the metagame at all(personally) however I feel like naviathan should ALWAYS have a place in a metagame whether or not it's offensive or defensive as it's concept is literally meant to allow it to thrive in either, which right now it doesn't.

2. What are the biggest limiting factors for each of Naviathan's sets?
Naviathan's Calm Mind set really struggles to setup against teams due to the sheer offensive power that is being run, things like Pheromosa and Landorus just don't encourage Navi at all. As well as this, the main matchup navi excelled at last gen is gone due to Dugtrio. Despite these limitations I don't think there's anything we can do to actually fix CM's problems, it's metagame trends that just don't work in it's favour. However I think naviathan will be able to thrive in this metagame due to Dragon Dance. Currently Dragon Dance is held back by naviathans power, not it's coverage and not it's typing (it's typing is fucking amazing, leaving it with 10 resistances, 1 immunity and 3 weaknesses.) It just can't break through any current walls due to it's weak nature which makes it a really hard pick over something like Gyarados or Salamence which can do this job as a sweeper much better than Naviathan can.

3. How do Naviathan's abilities impact the success, or lack thereof, of its sets?

Heatproof pretty much turns naviathans 10 resistances into 11 which means more opportunities for setting up. This is really useful for the Calm Mind set as you're investing in it's bulk, allowing you to make much more use of it. Heatproof also reduces burn damage allowing you to really just heal with leftovers and not worry at all about scald burns which is a small thing, but relevant nonetheless. Waterveil is nice on naviathan to prevent burns, but just like Salamence and Gyarados, naviathan can overcome the chance of burn without waterveil and overall could appreciate a new ability to help boost it's power respectively.
 

Deck Knight

Blast Off At The Speed Of Light! That's Right!
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Top CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Top Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
So it has taken me a while to contemplate Naviathan and what ails it, and I think there are a few answers that help Naviathan specifically in CAP, and both are addressed by Abilities. Lets start with DD Navi and one thing it could do to disassemble Dugtrio that it already has: Icicle Spear.

Life Orb Icicle Spear OHKOs Duggy through Sash, no questions asked. The issue is that without either Technician or Skill Link to boost it, Icicle Spear is entirely unreliable as a main sweeping move. Fun fact tho, Skill Link Icicle Spear does enough damage to overcome Hawk after it Hazes. Can't really break Haze + Reflect Hawk as it exists now though. That said, Hawk MUST Haze as it can't take a +1 IS. Water + Ice coverage isn't as good in CAP because of Mollux... although Skill Link Rock Blast or Tech Rock Tomb would end that problem immediately.

Right now Water Veil isn't doing that much for DD Navi as its main switchins aren't Bulky Waters. Bulky Waters in general don't like the prominence of the Tapus, and Tapu Fini only gets an exception because it is one. While I certainly don't think they are the only options that would help Navi Ability-wise, they are the two than give Navi something to stand out against CAP Stall, and something to differentiate it from Gyara and Salamence which avoid the pitfalls of Duggy by typing but at the cost of being more susceptible to Stealth Rock.
 

Deck Knight

Blast Off At The Speed Of Light! That's Right!
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Top CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Top Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
A few points stuck out to me from earlier, so please excuse the double post.

Naviathan's issues in making the DD set viable is that it can't carve a better niche than Z-Gyara or M-Gyara or Zard-X. Part of this has to do with its coverage, which was fine for the OU Meta iteration it was made for, but insufficient for CAP. There are a couple of avenues we could take that I've mentioned before, but I'd like to mention another:

Guts Flame Orb. Compared to Life Orb in Gen 7 it actually has less recoil, Naviathan is immune to random Toxic mucking this up, and naturally you'd spend the first turn out using Dragon Dance. I submit it's still susceptible to Knock Off, but honestly, U-turn or VSwitch Navi in if that's a problem. After a DD, Guts Naviathan has a frightening amount of power because Guts acts outside of other stat boosts. Now, Naviathan still has issues with Tomohawk specifically but lets be honest, Tomohawk's a bad matchup generally because it hits SE STAB off its higher attack stat to a lower defense. Defensive Hawk can beat Navi. Offensive Hawk (156 HP) in contrast is OHKO'd by +1 Guts Wild Charge, and OHKO'd by +1 Guts Zen Headbutt 87.5% of the time

Lest anyone think this might make it eat into Colossoil's "turf," Soil has a different purpose entirely from Navi, and its Guts exists to heavily punish status moves, not as an aid to set up. Guts neatly solves Naviathan's offensive problems, works with its existing OO (Taunt to stop enemy healing to stall out Navi or Slack Off to recover recoil damage), and realistically the only remaining issue in the CAP meta is coverage. Rock Slide solves its issue with Mollux, or go with Stone Edge if we don't want *yet another* flinch move on Navi lol. Zen Headbutt neatly covers both Mollux and offensive Hawk, and every Manta except Scarf. Duggy meanwhile can be KO'd through Sash if you choose to run Icicle Spear, though IS is otherwise inconsistent (Guts does at least mirror the attack boost of Tech, just not able to be combined with LO. Also it KO's offensive Hawk after rocks after 3 hits and without rocks at 4-5.)

The net effect of this is it gives Naviathan the unique ability to status absorb, combat Stall, and break through a similar array of threats comparable to Z-Gyara or ZardX, and at least has a viable option to countermand Duggy trapping it. So basically ZardX has healing and doesn't care about burn, but gets beat by Duggy, and Z-Gyara doesn't lose to Duggy but hates burn and also doesn't have a healing option. Navi is faster than Gyara and can beat it with Stone Edge (added) or Wild Charge (current) it switches in on Bounce after a DD, or DD itself. (TOrb prevents para hax), Navi can't eat a +1 Zard Flare Blitz without Heatproof (and Zard can run EQ anyway) so don't use it to try and beat that, this is just for camparison as to whether its threatening once set up or not.

EDIT: Also if you want to go berserker, give Navi a LO, switch it into every Scald you can, and watch terror commence >_>
 
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boxofkangaroos

this is the day of the expanding man
Okay, I really like the direction that the discussion has been going in so far, and Deck Knight's post sort of leads us towards our next order of business. But before we go too far with proposing specific new abilities or moves, let's take a brief look over the things that pretty much everyone has been agreeing upon so far.

Calm Mind Naviathan's role as a stallbreaker is limited by Dugtrio. In Gen 6, Naviathan was one of the premiere stallbreakers in the CAP metagame. But in Gen 7, Dugtrio is seen on the vast majority of stall teams, and the presence of this Pokemon renders Naviathan almost useless. Because of the threat of Dugtrio, Naviathan is pretty much forced to attack with Scald every time it comes in, since it can't afford Dugtrio coming in freely. While Dugtrio cannot OHKO Naviathan, it can always beat Naviathan 1v1 before its Focus Sash is broken.

Scald is a bad mono-attacking move for Calm Mind Naviathan. The popularity of Pokemon like Mollux, Cyclohm, Tapu Fini, Ferrothorn, and Plasmanta, which are either immune to or resist Water, prevent Scald from working on its own without any coverage. And Naviathan hardly has room to run a second attacking move, since Taunt is usually vital for the set. On top of that, the nerfing of burns in Gen 7 has reduced the threat of Scald in general.

Heatproof is a great ability for Naviathan. Turning a neutrality into a resistance is a fantastic effect that increases the opportunities Naviathan gets to set up. Overall, Heatproof is a much better choice than...

Water Veil is a subpar ability for Naviathan. While it may seem excellent at face value, Water Veil is actually not a very good ability for even Dragon Dance Naviathan. Even though it hypothetically reduces the risk of setting up against certain threats packing Lava Plume, Scald, or Will-O-Wisp, these threats are not the Pokemon Naviathan will be setting up against. Mollux or Pyroak, for example, hard wall Naviathan, and Bulky Waters aren't going to be switching in on Naviathan in the first place because of the threat of Wild Charge.

These are just a few things that stuck out as the main ideas of the discussion; of course there are more valuable points that some of you have brought up. We have clearly identified the pitfalls that keep Naviathan from doing its job in the current metagame, and you all likely have some ideas as for how to fix them. With that, I'd like to introduce a new set of questions to keep the discussion moving along.

1. What should the goal of this update be? What aspects of Naviathan should we be trying to fix, and what aspects should we be leaving alone?
2. What new competitive Ability could be introduced to bring us closer to that goal? How would it achieve this?
3. Where would this new Ability fit in with Naviathan's old Abilities?
 

G-Luke

Sugar, Spice and One For All
is a Community Contributoris a CAP Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnus
1. What should the goal of this update be? What aspects of Naviathan should we be trying to fix, and what aspects should we be leaving alone?

The goal of this update is to achieve the concept - a mon that uses two completely different set up moves to sweep in two completely different ways. This is a concept Nav currently doesnt carry out, as one set vastly outperforms the other.

We should be try to fix the main problem with Navi's DD set - Power. Its much weaker than other similar DDancers in the metagame and has lackluster STABs and poor coverage that leaves it walled by a significant portion of the metagame. Its Calm Mind set, however, is fine as is, and truly its only problem is the prevalence of Dugtrio on Stall, which is the playstyle the CM set normally excels against.

2. What new competitive Ability could be introduced to bring us closer to that goal? How would it achieve this?

A number of competitive abilities can solve the power issue in a variety of ways. There is the obvious - Adaptability can be given to boost its lackluster STABs. There is Guts, which was suggested by Deck Knight, which bolsters the users attack stat and lets it hit muuch harder, while also letting Navi become a Status absorber of sorts, which can be very important for balance builds. Technician is also an option, even though currently Navi has very little to abuse it, many potential STAB and coverage options go hand and hand with Technician (Gear Grind, Aqua Jet just to name a few)

3. Where would this new Ability fit in with Naviathan's old Abilities?

Let this become Navi's primary ability, and shift Water Veil to a non comprtitive one.
 

snake

is a Community Leaderis a Top CAP Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
CAP Co-Leader
1. What should the goal of this update be? What aspects of Naviathan should we be trying to fix, and what aspects should we be leaving alone?

The goal of the update should be to improve DD Naviathan's damage output. I don't think we need to focus on other boosting options, the CM set, or much else. CM is fine as it is; it just doesn't match up with everything too well right now. Think of it this way: what's better than Scald / CM / Slack Off / Taunt with an ability that gives you an extra resistance?

2. What new competitive Ability could be introduced to bring us closer to that goal? How would it achieve this?

DK's suggestion of Guts retains the whole "haha I don't mind burns!" thing that Water Veil provides, and allows Naviathan to have more damage. Other generic offensive abilities like Tough Claws help too. Steelworker is a neat option that could work; though I haven't done any calcs on it yet. If we decide that we want Naviathan to be a battleship we could flip its Hidden Ability to Heavy Metal and give it Heavy Slam.

3. Where would this new Ability fit in with Naviathan's old Abilities?

Water Veil is largely useless, so put the new ability over that. If Heavy Metal is actually good, replace Light Metal.


I'm going to do some calcs with these abilities when I get a chance, so I'll be back with these results.
 

david0895

Mercy Main Btw
1. What should the goal of this update be? What aspects of Naviathan should we be trying to fix, and what aspects should we be leaving alone?

A relevant problem of this pokémon is its coverage, especially the physical one: the lack of Earthquake doesn't allow it to a lot of pokémon in the tier, Icicle Crash and Wild Charge resolve partially the problem, but there's no room for both of them. In the end Dragon Claw, despite its good neutrality, have not enough power to compensate its 110 attack.

2. What new competitive Ability could be introduced to bring us closer to that goal? How would it achieve this?

It depends how much we want to boost the output damage:

- Adaptability if we care only about STABs
- Tough Claws gives about the same power of the Life Orb, allowing it to use a Lum Berry
- About the Life Orb, Sheer Force can be a good combo
- Guts gives, at the cost of the item and of a turn, a great boost

3. Where would this new Ability fit in with Naviathan's old Abilities?

Water Veil proved to be a not so useful ability, so change this.

If we decide that we want Naviathan to be a battleship we could flip its Hidden Ability to Heavy Metal and give it Heavy Slam.
Can this become a meme, since it has Light Metal?
 

OLD GREGG (im back baby)

old gregg for life
1. What should the goal of this update be? What aspects of Naviathan should we be trying to fix, and what aspects should we be leaving alone?
Navi should be unpredictable, theoretically. However, due to the fact that the CM set is objectively better this is not the case. The CM set should remain untouched as it is one of the best stall breakers in CAP. I think what needs to be fixed is the match-up vs. offense with a buff to the DD set. Also, DD suffers from having to run lackluster STABS. You need a huge attack stat to be threatening with BP 80 STABS. Navi's attack stat is good but not huge. Victini has a lower attack than Navi but through Bolt Strike and V-Create it can be extremely hard to face. I think the stats are suitable, but the moves it currently has to run on DD don't do enough. I think DD Navi is really in need of better moves if it wants to be comparable to the CM set.

2. What new competitive Ability could be introduced to bring us closer to that goal? How would it achieve this?
A couple of good abilities have already been brought up. I like the ideas of Heavy Metal, Guts, and Adaptability. Tough Claws is good too, but I feel is inferior to Guts and Adaptability. Even with these abilities though, the opponent is one switch-in away from forcing you to abandon those boosts due to the presence of other CAP mons. Normally a water type would have an edge over a fire type and a steel type would have an edge over a poison type; not in CAP. The very existence of Mollux and Plasmanta are the scorn of DD Navi as far as I am concerned. This is what makes Navi predictable, I think. The easiest way to even the playing field would be Mold Breaker. It would serve Navi nicely allowing it to Taunt Magic Bouncers. Break through defensive abilities like Volt Absorb, Thick Fat, Unaware, Water Absorb, and Storm Drain. As well as giving it more freedom to set-up with less reliable hard-counters.

3. Where would this new Ability fit in with Naviathan's old Abilities?
I think we all agree that Water Veil just isn't as good as it seems like it should be for Navi, so replace it.
 
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1. What should the goal of this update be? What aspects of Naviathan should we be trying to fix, and what aspects should we be leaving alone?

The goal of this update should be to make Naviathan's DD set(s) more viable, to help fulfill the concept of a Pokemon that can run two different types of boosting sets competently. Currently Naviathan's physical movepool is a bit underwhelming for the Viking Longship, and Water Veil is doing it no favors.

2. What new competitive Ability could be introduced to bring us closer to that goal? How would it achieve this?

As I have previously stated, It seems like a good idea to give Naviathan two different abilities that it would want to run depending on which boosting move it uses. Although this time I feel it is a valid point due to the fact that the CM set is already in a better position, so something that benefits both sets, such as Adaptability, may not work out as well for bringing the two sets closer in-line. I am also a bit leery on Sheer Force and Mold Breaker, although Sheer Force will likely benefit the DD set more since Scald Burns are part of why the move is so good. I am a fan of Guts and Tough Claws, and would be a fan of Moxie if it wasn't already on two other DD Sweepers that Naviathan needs to distinguish itself from. Skill Link was also brought up as an idea, and capitalizing on Icicle Spear being able to deal with Dugtrio may help, but the application seems a bit narrow with just the one 5-hit move currently. Even then, I am not sold on if it will be enough or not.

3. Where would this new Ability fit in with Naviathan's old Abilities?
Heatproof is pretty safe to keep, it's proven that it is a good ability for the Calm Mind set, so dropping either Water Veil or Light Metal would be the way to go, with my vote being (probably to the surprise of no one) to drop Water Veil. The idea of swapping out Light Metal for Heavy Metal seems amusing, although adding in Heavy Slam would probably be something we would want to do in that case. Besides, heavy metal is more appropriate for Vikings anyways.
 
I think that most of us are in agreement that Dragon Dance Naviathan is the set we need to be focusing on at this point. Even with Dugtrio on stall teams, stallbreaker Naviathan still has a fairly good matchup against the archetype and isn't a bad mon in its own right. It's not top-tier, but it's certainly not something that desperately needs fixing. It's going to be tough to convince me we need anything outside of consistency updates on the special side.

With that being said, Dragon Dance Naviathan is its own story. As several people have already pointed out, it suffers from from mediocre damage output which makes setting up a DD Naviathan sweep quite difficult, and it faces stiff competition from other DD users. That's not to say it's without potential however. Naviathan does have some decent physical bulk and a pretty solid defensive typing, so getting up a Dragon Dance isn't all that difficult. Its problem is being fairly unthreatening after a boost, as it lacks the raw power to muscle through anything but an extraordinarily weakened team.

The main routes I can see for DD Naviathan is to replace an ability with an ability that boosts its physical damage output, increase its potential damage output by giving it stronger STABs or coverage, or perhaps a little of both. The moves it can potentially receive will be impacted by whether or not a new ability is selected, and how strong said ability is. For example, if we decide Naviathan should get Huge Power, it won't also need Crabhammer (Naviathan isn't getting Huge Power, but you get my point).

Since we've already started talking about abilities to a decent extent, I'd like to focus the discussion purely on the pros and cons of specific abilities for DD Naviathan so we can get a good idea of which ones are worth polling. The ones I'm personally most interested in are the ones that focus solely on Naviathan's physical damage output, like Guts and Tough Claws. Some other abilities that have been brought up in the room but not yet in this thread are Iron Fist and Strong Jaw, and considering Naviathan has the moveset to make use of these, I think they warrant some discussion. I'm not a fan of options that directly buff its damage output on both sides of the spectrum (looking at Adaptability and Sheer Force here). If we buff both sets, this increases the likelihood that Calm Mind remains the vastly superior option and we sorta miss the point of Naviathan's update. To an extent, Mold Breaker is in the same boat (heh). While it allows DD Naviathan to hit Mollux and Plasmanta with Waterfall, it also allows stallbreaker Naviathan to click Taunt against stall with very few repercussions, as it can now use Taunt on Mega Sableye.

Yeah!
 

snake

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CAP Co-Leader
One thing that's important about DD Naviathan is that it's STABs are pretty good, and it seems worth powering up those the most. Guts and Tough Claws seem the best so far solely because they power up both of Naviathan's STAB moves and coverage moves. Most of these other abilities, while effective, do not really address the main problem about Naviathan. Even if we power up coverage moves, Naviathan's STAB attacks will still be lackluster.

For reference, here are Naviathan's best attacking moves to use on Dragon Dance sets:
Waterfall (80 BP) (STAB)
Iron Head (80 BP) (STAB)
Wild Charge (90 BP)
Drill Peck (80 BP)
Icicle Crash (85 BP)

Waterfall, Iron Head, and Drill Peck have stronger alternatives that we have access too (ignoring legendaries and such). We might want to explore another coverage type as well. However, the main point is that none of these moves have exceptionally good Base Power, so I'd like to shoot for an ability that boosts most of its moves rather than a specific few coverage moves. If we go for Strong Jaw for example, we still have terrible STAB moves and will have to settle with only the better STAB moves. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it should be considered nonetheless.
 

boxofkangaroos

this is the day of the expanding man
Good points everyone. The consensus is that, if we decide to add a new ability, it would replace Water Veil. The abilities that most people have been discussing fall into two main categories: Direct Boosting Abilities, and Coverage Boosting Abilities. Of course, two of the main aspects in which Naviathan is seeking improvement are attack power and coverage, so an ability in either of these categories would be a significant viability booster, especially for DD Naviathan.

Direct Boosting Abilities: Guts and Tough Claws
Coverage Boosting Abilities: Mold Breaker and abilities like Iron Fist and Strong Jaw

Guts, at the cost of some chip damage, boosts Naviathan's attack 1.5x and also turns Naviathan into a status absorber. If the Flame Orb activates directly after Naviathan uses Dragon Dance, its Attack is effectively boosted 2.25x, which is a lot:

No Guts: 252 Atk Naviathan Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 192 Def Tapu Fini: 88-105 (25.6 - 30.6%) -- 1.6% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
Guts: 252 Atk Guts Naviathan Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 192 Def Tapu Fini: 132-156 (38.4 - 45.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Guts +1: +1 252 Atk Guts Naviathan Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 192 Def Tapu Fini: 196-232 (57.1 - 67.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

On the other hand, Tough Claws boosts Naviathan's contact moves (all of its physical moves besides Icicle Crash) 1.3x without any drawback. With Life Orb and a Dragon Dance boost, its Attack is effectively boosted 2.535x, which is even more than Guts:

Tough Claws: 252 Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Naviathan Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 192 Def Tapu Fini: 148-175 (43.1 - 51%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Tough Claws +1: +1 252 Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Naviathan Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 192 Def Tapu Fini: 220-261 (64.1 - 76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Mold Breaker is an interesting case, since, rather than boosting Naviathan's STAB or coverage moves, it literally gives it more coverage, specifically against Mollux and Plasmanta. However, we are probably better off addressing those Pokemon with specific coverage moves later on (not gonna name names but I think we're on the same page here). Iron Fist and Strong Jaw are also interesting options that can significantly boost Naviathan's potential coverage, but they still leave a lot to be desired when it comes to STAB power.

As snake_rattler and sparktrain (among others) have mentioned, Abilities like Adaptability and Sheer Force are not not ideal because we're not trying to buff the attacking power of the Calm Mind set.

One last ability I want to see some more discussion on is Heavy Metal. Heavy Metal implies the addition of Heavy Slam, which was banned during Naviathan's moveset stage in fear that it would be too powerful, but now we can see where all that whole power-conservative thinking got us. Anyway, Heavy Metal + Heavy Slam creates a very powerful (usually 120 BP, though it depends on the weight of the opposing Pokemon) STAB move that may be what Naviathan needs to gain that extra burst of power.

I'm hoping to have an ability poll up by this weekend, so I want to pull the discussion to a close within the next few days. Of course, there is always the option to keep Naviathan's abilities the way they currently are.

Carry on!
 

HeaLnDeaL

Let's Keep Fighting
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I just want to briefly chime in and say that I think Guts over Tough Claws in the better option. While it is true that Life Orb and Tough Claws is stronger, Guts is much more in align with Naviathan's original concept as Flame Orb + Guts allows it to not worry about the effects of disrupting status, something which we specifically were concerned about when trying to come up with a niche for Navi over the other Dragon Dancers. If we want to differentiate ourselves from Gyarados or Feraligatr, I think that being unable to be crippled by burns is a huge selling point, and now Guts + Flame Orb makes us immune to paralysis or sleep as well. I don't think we hold any special points to be worth using over Gyarados if we go with Tough Claws + Life Orb since Gyarados's higher attack and a single moxie boost already make it stronger than Navi.

Additionally, Burn recoil is almost 4% less than Life Orb recoil. Considering that burn recoil doesn't take place until the turn after Flame Orb activates (I think), most of the time Navi will set up turn 1 and attack from turn 2 and onward, meaning recoil in typical situations will be a lot less. The only negative is when we want to DD a second time when we will take burn damage without attacking, but even still 2 turns of burn is barely more than 1 turn of LO.
 
I much prefer Guts to Tough Claws. While Tough Claws does mean more damage, Guts has less recoil, which is more ideal for a bulky booster, and Guts also preserves Naviathan's status immune shtick, but makes it immune to every status now. Also with Tough Claws, I would honestly feel inclined to just use Choice Band Naviathan, which is something I have used before with Water Veil. With Guts, you're a lot less likely to use a banded set over a flame orb set.

Also tfw HeaL posts while I'm making this post to say basically what I wanted to say.
 

snake

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CAP Co-Leader
I think Guts might be our best option now, but I think it's worth noting that we won't be able to run Z moves reliably on DDance sets if we go this route. Not that this is a downside really, given that they're all non-contact anyways, so they wouldn't give the Tough Claws boost, but I just wanted to point this out.

Unless I see some really solid reasoning for Heavy Metal or Strong Jaw (or other coverage boosting abilities for that matter), I'll probably stick with Guts.
 

david0895

Mercy Main Btw
Before to give my opinion I need to know if we want to add Earthquake to the moveset.
If yes, I'll vote for Guts, if no I'll choose Mold Breaker
 

boxofkangaroos

this is the day of the expanding man
Before to give my opinion I need to know if we want to add Earthquake to the moveset.
If yes, I'll vote for Guts, if no I'll choose Mold Breaker
Please don't let possible coverage moves influence your choice in ability. Competitive moves will be determined in the next step, and discussing them now is considered polljumping by CAP standards.
 
Sorry, but I'm going to put the kibosh on Mold Breaker. This ability allows Naviathan to freely spam Taunt against Mega Sableye teams, and it removes the opportunity cost associated with running mono-Water coverage on Calm Mind sets by allowing Naviathan to win against Mollux and other Pokemon immune to Water instead of being walled by them. Mold Breaker benefits Calm Mind sets just as much as Dragon Dance sets (if not more), which misses the point of an ability update.

Carry on with discussion of the other abilities.
 

G-Luke

Sugar, Spice and One For All
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I'd like to throw in the hat for Steelworker as an ability for Navi. Steelworker, as we know, boosts the power of Steel type moves by 50%. This gives Navi an effective 120 base power Iron Head, really strong STAB at +1.
 
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