CAP Updates: Kitsunoh Discussion (Complete)

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Name: Kitsunoh
Typing: Steel/Ghost
Abilities: Frisk/Limber
Stats: 80/103/85/55/80/110
Hello! Welcome to Kitsunoh's update and discussion thread, where we will help Kitsunoh look like a Generation 7 Pokemon. Sorry for the delay. I hope to make this a smooth ride.

Kitsunoh's concept was "the Ultimate Scout," which would help reveal what sets the enemy team's Pokemon are running. Frisk reveals items, which can usually give away a set, and Limber assists Kit's scouting potential by removing the risk of paralysis. However, over the past few generations it's become harder and harder for do this effectively. Its longevity isn't very good anymore since it's defensive stats are now painfully average, and it's offenses are now lacking. But this is what we're here for, we need to help improve Kistunohs scouting potential.

What are the differences between a scout in Generation 4 and a scout in Generation 7, if any?
What flaws are holding Kitsunoh back this generation from reaching its full potential?
Does Kitsunoh need a new ability, if so which one should it get and why?

This part of the discussion will be up for 72 hours
 
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This is the update I've been most excited for so I can't wait to get this going!


What are the differences between a scout in Generation 4 and a scout in Generation 7, if any?
I think that the main difference here is that back in Gen 4 there was no team preview, so neither player knew their opponent's whole team for sure until they sent out all of their Pokemon. This made the role of a scout much more valuable in that if you could force your opponent to send out their Pokemon without revealing too much yourself, you would gain a significant advantage in terms of surprise and predictability. Obviously, this is not relevant in Gen 7, but I still think that scouting has some niche. For example, being able to reveal opposing sets as well as avoiding lures is still very useful. I would also argue that scouting has improved this generation in particular thanks to the addition of Z-Moves, as it is advantageous to 'waste' your opponents Z-Move by scouting for it.

I know that this isn't within the scope of the question, but I would just like to say that Kitsunoh itself has rarely functioned as a scout over the last few generations, and instead has been more of a utility pivot with Defog, Will-O-Wisp and U-Turn. Though it has run choiced sets, they have been less effective due to the power creep. I really don't think that this update should be attempting to revive the scout aspect of Kitsunoh and I believe it should instead focus on improving what it actually does in the current metagame. In other words, I think that this should be an update in terns of Viability, not Concept.

What flaws are holding Kitsunoh back this generation from reaching its full potential?
The main flaw that Kitsunoh suffers is its incredible susceptibility to getting worn down. Its somewhat mediocre defences mean that it can only switch in on powerful resisted attacks two or three times per match at most, and on the whole it takes neural hits fairly poorly. This can mean that it is unable to take advantage of its many resistances. The fact that it relies on Leftovers as its only form of recovery really holds Kitsunoh back in terms of longevity. Two of its weaknesses, Ground and Fire, are very common attacking types, meaning that Kitsunoh is easily checked by many teams. It is also susceptible to Pursuit from the likes of Colossoil and Tyranitar.

Does Kitsunoh need a new ability, if so which one should it get and why?
I think that Kitsunoh definitely needs a new ability to be viable in the current metagame. It is, in my opinion, by far the easiest way to fix its most glaring flaws.
One if the best abilities to give Kitsunoh would be Regenerator as it improves its role as a pivot and gives it a means of reliable recovery that increases its staying power throughout a match. It very specifically targets Kitsunoh's problems whilst also being a good ability in general. I think that Kitsunoh does need a major change in its ability such as this, as it is severely lacking in its effectiveness and needs a big push to be successful.
Grassy Surge is, I believe, another great ability for Kitsunoh in that it again targets its specific problems. It doubles the recovery that Kitsunoh receives each turn as well as halving the damage from one of its most common weaknesses: Earthquake. This increases Kitsunoh's longevity, the Pokemon that it can check and also means that Kitsunoh can provide support for its team.
Intimidate is another generically good ability that synergises well with Kitsunoh's pivoting ability whilst both providing team support and increasing its physical bulk.
I also want to bring up the ability Fluffy but I don't have time to explain that now, so I'll make a post when I can. Just bringing it up so it can be discussed :D
 
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This is the update I've been most excited for so I can't wait to get this going!


What are the differences between a scout in Generation 4 and a scout in Generation 7, if any?
I think that the main difference here is that back in Gen 4 there was no team preview, so neither player knew their opponent's whole team for sure until they sent out all of their Pokemon. This made the role of a scout much more valuable in that if you could force your opponent to send out their Pokemon without revealing too much yourself, you would gain a significant advantage in terms of surprise and predictability. Obviously, this is not relevant in Gen 7, but I still think that scouting has some niche. For example, being able to reveal opposing sets as well as avoiding lures is still very useful. I would also argue that scouting has improved this generation in particular thanks to the addition of Z-Moves, as it is advantageous to 'waste' your opponents Z-Move by scouting for it.

I know that this isn't within the scope of the question, but I would just like to say that Kitsunoh itself has rarely functioned as a scout over the last few generations, and instead has been more of a utility pivot with Defog, Will-O-Wisp and U-Turn. Though it has run choiced sets, they have been less effective due to the power creep. I really don't think that this update should be attempting to revive the scout aspect of Kitsunoh and I believe it should instead focus on improving what it actually does in the current metagame. In other words, I think that this should be an update in terns of Viability, not Concept.

What flaws are holding Kitsunoh back this generation from reaching its full potential?
The main flaw that Kitsunoh suffers is its incredible susceptibility to getting worn down. Its somewhat mediocre defences mean that it can only switch in on powerful resisted attacks two or three times per match at most, and on the whole it takes neural hits fairly poorly. This can mean that it is unable to take advantage of its many resistances. The fact that it relies on Leftovers as its only form of recovery really holds Kitsunoh back in terms of longevity. Two of its weaknesses, Ground and Fire, are very common attacking types, meaning that Kitsunoh is easily checked by many teams. It is also susceptible to Pursuit from the likes of Colossoil and Tyranitar.

Does Kitsunoh need a new ability, if so which one should it get and why?
I think that Kitsunoh definitely needs a new ability to be viable in the current metagame. It is, in my opinion, by far the easiest way to fix its most glaring flaws.
One if the best abilities to give Kitsunoh would be Regenerator as it improves its role as a pivot and gives it a means of reliable recovery that increases its staying power throughout a match. It very specifically targets Kitsunoh's problems whilst also being a good ability in general. I think that Kitsunoh does need a major change in its ability such as this, as it is severely lacking in its effectiveness and needs a big push to be successful.
Grassy Terrain is, I believe, another great ability for Kitsunoh in that it again targets its specific problems. It doubles the recovery that Kitsunoh receives each turn as well as halving the damage from one of its most common weaknesses: Earthquake. This increases Kitsunoh's longevity, the Pokemon that it can check and also means that Kitsunoh can provide support for its team.
Intimidate is another generically good ability that synergises well with Kitsunoh's pivoting ability whilst both providing team support and increasing its physical bulk.
I also want to bring up the ability Fluffy but I don't have time to explain that now, so I'll make a post when I can. Just bringing it up so it can be discussed :D
Fluffy seems like a somewhat balanced addition, as it makes you essentially 4x weak to Fire. Also, it doesn't change the matchup against Zygarde, as 1K Arrows does not make contact. A suggestion that I think should also be considered is Fur Coat, which halves physical moves. It helps address Kitsunoh's Ground issue, as most Ground moves are physical. However, Fire types are still a huge issue, making this somewhat balanced.

252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Kitsunoh in Sun: 750-884 (249.1 - 293.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

I would be fine with either ability, but I thought Fur Coat would be another choice.

Aside from those options, I am liking Regenerator. It gives a form of recovery that is more reliable than leftovers, while remaining balanced. Competitively, I like Grassy Surge more, as it also helps against Ground types, but I fail to see the flavor applications.
 
What are the differences between a scout in Generation 4 and a scout in Generation 7, if any?

In Gen IV, there wasn't team preview, a dedicated scout was a Pokemon used to force the opponent to swicth as much as he can in order to discover the members of his team and potentially their respective set. And then the Gen V came and team preview was brought as well, meaning that's the role of dedicated scout was become almost meaningless in some case. Since Gen V, a scout would be rather a Pokemon which allows you to figure out which set and items the opposite Pokemon is running, which can be useful to play against more easily. But such a task is rather difficult to fulfill now, since the opponent can switch in order to have a better match up aginst your scout which could be forced to switch as well.

In the case of Kitsunoh, I saw in the olf forum that many peoplee thought that Kitsunoh didn't fulfilled his project, I can't agree or disagree since I wasn't there at the time. Nonetheless, it seems that the combinason of WoW + Taunt/Sub was difficult to play against, especially with Kitsunoh excellent typing and ability to pressure some Pokemon which would likely switch on WoW like Heatran or Colossoil with the appropriate move. I can see how Kitsunoh could force switch in DPP CAP, because you might switch many times in order to avoid that your physical attackers get burned, that your most passive Mon get taunted and that your frail Pokemon swicth into a Substitute and get killed after. However, even if the old Wispy Kit could still have some use today, it probably struggle more in the current Metagame due to the existence of Pyroak, Sableye Mega, Cyclohm (I understood that the defensive variant wasn't played extremly often in DPP), Volcarona, Flame Orb Colossoil, Toxapex... Even though most of these Pokemon are pretty straightforward, a scout could be helpful to figure out which coverage / support moves Pyroak is running, if Cyclohm use Ice Beam or not, if Colossoil use Sucker Punch, Pursuit or another Move... sadly, Kitsunoh has a disadvantage of typing against these Mon and can't really discover "not mandatory/common moves" since these Mon won't need using other thing that their STAB, Heal Move or omnipresent move coverage like Fire Blast from Cyclohm, at least, if he uses Frisk, he can see if the opposite Cyclohm packs a LO, the Colossoil an AV or a Scarf...
In my opinion, a dedicated scout would be an ideal user of Tormlent in the current Metagame, a non existent move currently which Kitsunoh already has in his movepool, I never tried it on him, but in DPP OU, Torment Heatran was fairly effective and acted quite reliably as a scout.

What flaws are holding Kitsunoh back this generation from reaching its full potential?

One of the glaring weakness of Kitsunoh in the current metagame is his lack of raw power due to his OK attack stat, which leaves him easily checked by most Wall or decently bulky Pokemon. despite his excellent STAB in the form of Shadow Strike, most of Defensive Mon can either win with SE coverage/STAB (Cyclohm, Kistunoh, Sableye-Mega...), use Kistunoh as a Set up Fodder (Skarmory, Toxapex...) or killing him slowly (Tomohawk, Mega-Venusaur...) and they can all switch if their Defense has drop multipled times. Among Kitsunoh's flaws, there are his bulk and lack of reliable recovery which somewhat hinders his great typing, meaning that he can be worn down fairly easily and cannot swicth too many times on powerful hits, even resisted.

Does Kitsunoh need a new ability, if so which one should it get and why?

The scout task seems unreachable for Kitsunoh in Gen 7 to me, and I explained earlier why a dedicated scout doesn't make much sense anymore. Current's Kitsunoh abilities initially given to fulfill this role are pretty situational now, so I think that Kit definitely needs a new ability. My favorite one is by far Regenerator since Kit can make a great pivot and take hit more often as long as he doesn't stay too long on the field, with such a good defensive typing and access to U-Turn, I think that the role of pivot fits very well for him. Levitate and Intimidate are also a good choices as they expand the number of things that Kitsunoh can check and are very benefit for a pivot as well.

If we want more offensive abilities, Sheer Force seems pretty good as it allows the majority of Kitsunoh offensive options to be more powerful, at the cost of not being able to drop the opponent's Defense with Shadow Strike. I also thought about Serena Grace, but since Kitsunoh learn Iron head, I'd rather avoid making him as uncompetitive as Jirahaxx and Togehaxx.
 

snake

is a Community Leaderis a Top CAP Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
CAP Co-Leader
What are the differences between a scout in Generation 4 and a scout in Generation 7, if any?

While I wasn't around during Gen 4 at all, I'll do my best to answer this question. Prior to team preview, it was imperative to know your opponent's sets because not only could that reveal what set that specific pokemon was running but could also give you an idea of what potential teammates it was running. Kit's typing immensely helped it out with only two weaknesses (Steel-type had resistances to Ghost- and Dark-type) and an immunity to Explosion (when it halved defense). The ability to find out so much about the opposing team with Frisk, a large about of resistances and immunites, particularly to one to Explosion, and above average stats at the time, especially Speed, made Kitsunoh a very good scout in Generation 4.

In Generation 7, scouting is much less important. There are very few "leads" like Aerodactyl with SR / Taunt except for Azelf, and anti-leads designed to try to shut down Pokemon like Aerodactyl (again, my Generation 4 metagame knowledge is very limited). However, Frisk still allows Kitsunoh to see what item the opponent is holding, which is important because Z Crystal lures are everywhere now.
What flaws are holding Kitsunoh back this generation from reaching its full potential?

Referring back to my answer in Question 1...honestly its just time and metagame change. Everything changed around Kitsunoh. In Generation 5, Team Preview diluted the idea of "scouting," so conceptually Kitsunoh took a bit hit. Explosion became much less common, but it still appreciated its great Steel and Ghost typing. The general power creep caught it too, but iirc Kitsunoh was still a decent pick in Gen 5. However, in Gen 6, Kitsunoh lots two of its resistances to Ghost-type and Steel-type. At the same time, Dark-types gained a super powerful Knock Off, making Kitsunoh's life much harder. Then, there was the fact that 110 Base Speed wasn't just "above average." It was literally baseline to keep up with the likes of Mega Diancie and other common Pokemon. The fact that everyone ran Talonflame with at least 351 Speed (369 in CAP) didn't help either. However, Gen 6 marked the birth of Kitsunoh's utility set with the buff to Defog.

In Generation 7, things are actually looking up for Kitsunoh. Hazard removal, while more common in the CAP metagame, is harder to place on offensive teams, but Kitsunoh's higher speed and access to U-turn suggests that it can fulfill this role very well. Additionally, it's a great check for Mega Medicham. Mega Metagross just got banned, so the Steel-type with 110 Base Speed is now Kitsunoh. However, Kitsunoh faces a large problem: getting worn down really fast. Without resorting to crazy abilities like Fluffy, Grassy Surge, Intimidate, or Regenerator (I believe that we can achieve a successful update without looking at these), Kitsunoh hates taking contact damage more than anything. Wanna U-turn out? Rocky Helmet Tomohawk's going to come in and make you take 1/6 of your HP. Same with Landorus-T, Garchomp, of Ferrothorn. Or Volcarona and Cyclohm with their status based abilities. It might look like I've identified such a niche problem, but you can't change the fact that lots of attacks now OHKO Kitsunoh if you invest 252 Speed EVs to take advantage of its great speed tier.
Does Kitsunoh need a new ability, if so which one should it get and why?

To solve this problem of chip damage, I'm going to propose Long Reach. While Regenerator would fix the problem too, do we really need to slap Regenerator, the one of best abilities in the game, or any other ability generically good ability just to save Kitsunoh? I really don't think that's the way to go. Long Reach solves the problem of chip damage. All of Kitsunoh's attacks are contact-based, including U-turn, but Long Reach makes it so you don't get worn down by Rocky Helmet, Rough Skin, and Iron Barbs and don't get statused by Flame Body or Static. Again, you might think that it has such niche application. And it does, just like Frisk and Limber, making Long Reach the perfect ability to go alongside them; Long Reach doesn't outclass Kitsunoh's abilities like Regenerator. Remember that this is a minor update, not a major one.

On a side note about Grassy Surge, I believe DJD really didn't like it when Misty Surge on Arghonaut, so let's avoid Grassy Surge.
 
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What are the differences between a scout in Generation 4 and a scout in Generation 7, if any?

While I wasn't around during Gen 4 at all, I'll do my best to answer this question. Prior to team preview, it was imperative to know your opponent's sets because not only could that reveal what set that specific pokemon was running but could also give you an idea of what potential teammates it was running. Kit's typing immensely helped it out with only two weaknesses (Steel-type had resistances to Ghost- and Dark-type) and an immunity to Explosion (when it halved defense). The ability to find out so much about the opposing team with Frisk, a large about of resistances and immunites, particularly to one to Explosion, and above average stats at the time, especially Speed, made Kitsunoh a very good scout in Generation 4.

In Generation 7, scouting is much less important. There are very few "leads" like Aerodactyl with SR / Taunt except for Azelf, and anti-leads designed to try to shut down Pokemon like Aerodactyl (again, my Generation 4 metagame knowledge is very limited). However, Frisk still allows Kitsunoh to see what item the opponent is holding, which is important because Z Crystal lures are everywhere now.
What flaws are holding Kitsunoh back this generation from reaching its full potential?

Referring back to my answer in Question 1...honestly its just time and metagame change. Everything changed around Kitsunoh. In Generation 5, Team Preview diluted the idea of "scouting," so conceptually Kitsunoh took a bit hit. Explosion became much less common, but it still appreciated its great Steel and Ghost typing. The general power creep caught it too, but iirc Kitsunoh was still a decent pick in Gen 5. However, in Gen 6, Kitsunoh lots two of its resistances to Ghost-type and Steel-type. At the same time, Dark-types gained a super powerful Knock Off, making Kitsunoh's life much harder. Then, there was the fact that 110 Base Speed wasn't just "above average." It was literally baseline to keep up with the likes of Mega Diancie and other common Pokemon. The fact that everyone ran Talonflame with at least 351 Speed (369 in CAP) didn't help either. However, Gen 6 marked the birth of Kitsunoh's utility set with the buff to Defog.

In Generation 7, things are actually looking up for Kitsunoh. Hazard removal, while more common in the CAP metagame, is harder to place on offensive teams, but Kitsunoh's higher speed and access to U-turn suggests that it can fulfill this role very well. Additionally, it's a great check for Mega Medicham. Mega Metagross just got banned, so the Steel-type with 110 Base Speed is now Kitsunoh. However, Kitsunoh faces a large problem: getting worn down really fast. Without resorting to crazy abilities like Fluffy, Grassy Surge, Intimidate, or Regenerator (I believe that we can achieve a successful update without looking at these), Kitsunoh hates taking contact damage more than anything. Wanna U-turn out? Rocky Helmet Tomohawk's going to come in and make you take 1/6 of your HP. Same with Landorus-T, Garchomp, of Ferrothorn. Or Volcarona and Cyclohm with their status based abilities. It might look like I've identified such a niche problem, but you can't change the fact that lots of attacks now OHKO Kitsunoh if you invest 252 Speed EVs to take advantage of its great speed tier.
Does Kitsunoh need a new ability, if so which one should it get and why?

To solve this problem of chip damage, I'm going to propose Long Reach. While Regenerator would fix the problem too, do we really need to slap Regenerator, the best ability in the game, or any other ability generically good ability just to save Kitsunoh? I really don't think that's the way to go. Long Reach solves the problem of chip damage. All of Kitsunoh's attacks are contact-based, including U-turn, but Long Reach makes it so you don't get worn down by Rocky Helmet, Rough Skin, and Iron Barbs and don't get statused by Flame Body or Static. Again, you might think that it has such niche application. And it does, just like Frisk and Limber, making Long Reach the perfect ability to go alongside them; Long Reach doesn't outclass Kitsunoh's abilities like Regenerator. Remember that this is a minor update, not a major one.

On a side note about Grassy Surge, I believe DJD really didn't like it when Misty Surge on Arghonaut, so let's avoid Grassy Surge.
I'm going to give my support to Long Reach. If all of the abilities I mentioned in my first post are out of the question, this is the way to go. I honestly didn't even think about this one, as it currently is an unreleased hidden ability on Decidueye. Long Reach would solve the main overall issue with it being worn down so much, and would not outclass any of its current abilities. On a quick tangent, I think there should be some sort of banlist of abilities depending on the update. However, that is a discussion for another day.
 

BP

Beers and Steers
is a Contributor to Smogon
Does Kitsunoh need a new ability, if so which one should it get and why?

I'm going to skip the other questions and just go right into Long Reach. Long Reach allows Kitsunoh to avoid possible physical chip damage from Pokemon such as Ferrothorn and Garchomp. This will assist in Scouting the other opponents team. In my opinion this is the perfect hidden ability for it. Snake and I were talking about Kitsunoh before this thread had even started and he had brainstormed Long reach. I quickly became euphoric for the possibility of Long Reach Kitsunoh.

Other abilities I support:
Fluffy
Regenerator
 
Does Kitsunoh need a new ability? If so, which one should it get and why?

I'm going to give my support to Long Reach, as several users have stated above. Kitsunoh can avoid chip damage with this Ability, such as wielders of Flame Body, Rough Skin / Iron Barbs, and Static. All of Kitsunoh's major attacks are contact-based anyway. Flavor-wise, it's also a stealthy ghostie. Too bad Decidueye doesn't have access to its Hidden Ability right now, as the Alolan owl line are the only official Pokémon that can use this Ability.
 
What are the differences between a scout in Generation 4 and a scout in Generation 7, if any?
The main thing that I could think that changed from kit's creation to now is less the actual role of a scout, but the game itself. Kitsunoh was made during a time of no team preview, scouting was extremely important, so to me that seems to be something that shook the foundation of what Kitsunoh stood on. This is coming from someone who did not play generation 4, so take this answer with a grain of salt.

What flaws are holding Kitsunoh back this generation from reaching its full potential?
Kitsunoh is held back by three major things really, those being that it has no real reason to be on a team, its weak, and it has trouble actually switching in to "scout" for anything. These are not inherent flaws either, and more changes and power creep that have taken place since the DPP meta. Another thing that really holds Kitsunoh back, are the players themselves. There is a tendency in cap for a mon to be considered bad, and then never really get any usage. Outside of Voodoom, all the current pokemon at least have some niche, big or small, that can justify them on a team. Yet Kitsunoh falls into a category where it is overlooked just because it is "bad." Malaconda falls into this same category.

Does Kitsunoh need a new ability, if so which one should it get and why?
Kitsunoh does not need a new ability. Whether it gets a new ability or not, it will still perform the same role as it always has, at about the same effectiveness. Sure we could give it something very minor to mitigate something, but we should not give it anything that will artificially boost its staying power, or something that will overshadow frisk and limber in anyway. Giving Kitsunoh an ability comes down to needs and wants, it does not need an ability, but I doubt that stop CAP from giving it one. My suggestion, personally, is to go with no competitive ability, and to try and stop any bleeding that Kitsunoh has with movepool additions. Our job in these updates are not to make every capmon good, but to in fact, bring them up to date.

Ok, can we just hold on for a second. This is supposed to be a discussion on abilities. cbrevan, the update leader, asked questions about whether or not we feel we even need a competitive ability addition here, and yet not only has every single person pretty much ignored the questions asked and just started arguing for specific abilities, but now we even have people arguing for moves when we are nowhere even near that part of the discussion yet. As a moderator I just want to remind everyone to stay on topic and actually focus on what cbrevan asked. Posts about moves that come before cbrevan asks us to move on to them will be deleted.

On a different note, as the GL for this update I just want to remind people that Malaconda was voted to get a minor update, not a major one. As such, any super powerful ability is already suspect, especially one that is attempting to do something its already good ability, Harvest, already does, but better. But more importantly, if you are feeling the need to drift into suggesting powerful moves on top of a powerful ability, then it is almost certainly going too far. Ultimately, we need to look and see if Malaconda needs improving, and if so find a minor way to do it. Not try and completely overhaul Malaconda, because that is not the kind of update it was voted to have.
What jas stated here also applies to Kitsunoh, we are to update this capmon based on consistency, and if we can improve it in a minor way, to do so. We should not force anything.
 

reachzero

the pastor of disaster
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What are the differences between a scout in Generation 4 and a scout in Generation 7, if any?

Several people have mentioned the lack of team preview when Kitsunoh was built, and that is indeed the biggest difference, but there are other macro changes that have an impact on what scouting means now compared to then. Back then, the number of threats was a lot less, and it was possible to cover everything; unpredictability and effective use of lures was extremely important, and scouting was largely about gathering information on these unpredictable elements. In Gen 7, there are so many different elements to cover that role compression is at a premium: phrases like "role compression" and "blanket check" didn't even exist in Gen 4, but they are keys to team building now. This brings us to two key points.

Scouting is still useful, item recognition in particular. Knowing which item Magearna or Celesteela is using, for instance, tells you a lot about the set and how to respond to them. Kitsunoh already does this quite well.

Most teams can't afford to have a dedicated scout. You only have six team slots, and you have to make sure you have a revenge killer, a Volkraken counter, a Stealth Rock user, hazard control, etc. Scouting has to be paired with some other function. The good news for Kitsunoh is that it has strong role compression: it is a good Tapu Lele check, a good switch into Crucibelle, and fortuitously the Defog buff gave it incredible utility value. Kitsunoh has a lot to do alongside its scouting, which is a strength.

What flaws are holding Kitsunoh back this generation from reaching its full potential?

Kitsunoh has survivability issues. It really wants to switch into high-powered attacks like Crucibelle Head Smash, LO Tomohawk Hurricane and Tapu Lele Psychic, and it's really good at taking two or so. Kitsunoh does have to use max HP, and usually also a lot of SpD or Defense (pick one). Its speed tier is great, though, so it can reach useful speed tiers even when running near minimum speed. The issue is that Kitsunoh lacks recovery, and so it isn't nearly as long-lasting as other bulky Steels. Kit usually runs a full utility set these days, so the lack of damage isn't a big problem; a set like (Taunt or U-turn)/Shadow Strike/Defog/(Toxic or Will-o-Wisp) is already great. A defensive ability of some sort would be what Kitsunoh would want.

Does Kitsunoh need a new ability, if so which one should it get and why?


I think Kitsunoh is a little underrated as is, and while I see the value of Long Reach, I'm not sure I would use it over Frisk. If we are determined to avoid stuff like Regenerator and Grassy Surge, it's going to be really hard to find an impact defensive ability. For Kit, the issue isn't that it had bad weaknesses, the issue is that it wishes it resisted the things it already resists more strongly.
 

OLD GREGG (im back baby)

old gregg for life
What are the differences between a scout in Generation 4 and a scout in Generation 7, if any?
I was on a pokemon hiatus during Gen 4 and a lot of Gen 5, so this is a question I really have no business trying to answer.

What flaws are holding Kitsunoh back this generation from reaching its full potential?
I think Kitsunoh's largest flaw is its flexibility. It can run lots of sets, many people in this thread are truly underselling Kitsunoh's capabilities. Having to choose one set to run can be daunting. For a utility role Kitsunoh has many tricks up its sleeve not limited to excellent coverage options, either. For an offensive role Kitsunoh has unusual utility like Pain Split, Momento, Roar, Magic Coat, Will O Wisp, SuperFang, Taunt, Trick, and U-Turn. Using Kitsunoh offensively isn't as hard to pull off as people are making it to be, not only that but it can also serve as a premier revenge killer that has excellent options between Stabs, BoltBeam punches, Knock Off, Earthquake, and Superpower; also makes Colo think twice before clicking Sucker Punch due to Will O Wisp. You see, the point I'm trying to make here....Kitsunoh is the jack of all trades-master of none in CAP. It can perform multiple roles to a consistent degree, however Kitsunoh does not excel at any of these roles. This is the biggest drawback to Kitsunoh imo; you might be thinking but versatility is a good thing, right? Not in this case, it leaves Kitsunoh with heavy 4mss and leaves the player usually wishing they had that one move that you just couldn't fit.

Does Kitsunoh need a new ability, if so which one should it get and why?
Despite Frisk not being as useful as it used to be, I think it still is a decent ability especially if you are running a Trick set. Limber is as excellent ability if you want to Scarf up and use Kitsunoh as a revenge killer since Limber prevents Paralysis. Kitsunoh could make use of a new ability for sure, but is definitely not in need of a new one since Kitsunoh already does fine with what its got.
 
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LucarioOfLegends

Master Procraster
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What are the differences between a scout in Generation 4 and a scout in Generation 7, if any?
One of the biggest differences that is fairly well noticed is that team preview is now in existence. Now, we no longer have to find out every pokemon on an opposing player's team, as they are all listed out nicely for us. This means that "scouting" has to do far more with finding out sets and items. This still has value of course, since it is important to distinguish between a Scarf Lele and a Specs Lele. Another big game changer is the Z-Stone, as they can serve as one time nukes for a certain move or can even work as setup on stuff such as Manaphy and Kerfluffle. Now scouts also have to identify Z-stones so the team can come in safely on these moves.
What flaws are holding Kitsunoh back this generation from reaching its full potential?
As many have stated before me, the major issue with Kitsunoh is its survivability. It has a fantastic typing for scouting, but simply does not have enough bulk to capitalize on it. Reliable recovery also is not present on Kitsunoh, which really limits its viability of constantly switching in when it can't heal off hazard damage and resisted attacks. Of course, metagame trends have also hurt its viability badly. The massive rise of Knock Off and Ground coverage really hurts Kitsunoh's chances, and newer metagame threats such as Mollux and Mega Scizor don't help either. And of course, the spirit fox faces competition from Tomohawk as a utility mon, which has far more going for it. Time, my dear, is a thief.
Does Kitsunoh need a new ability, if so which one should it get and why?
While it does fix the recovery issue, Regenerator is far too strong of an ability, considering its current speed tier and decent Attack stat. For now, my support goes to Long Reach and Grassy Surge. Long Reach eliminates any nasty contact effects such as Cyclohm's Static, Iron Barbs/Rough Skin, and Rocky Helmets , which greatly assist in pivoting and longevity by taking less passive damage. Grassy Surge assists as a more defensive option to the problem, as it gives some form of passive recovery and ground resistance for a few turns at a time. This gives Kitsunoh just enough time to use its utility options, possibly inflict burns, and pivot out to another mon. I personally like Grassy Surge slightly more, but either option is quite nice.
 

Deck Knight

Blast Off At The Speed Of Light! That's Right!
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What are the differences between a scout in Generation 4 and a scout in Generation 7, if any?

The obvious difference is Team Preview. Kitsunoh was made in a metagame full of dedicated leads, and getting a feel for them at little cost was very valuable. Therefore, most scouting is usually done by sending in a check and reactive to what an opponent does.

What flaws are holding Kitsunoh back this generation from reaching its full potential?


Power Creep is probably the biggest relevant factor. 110 Spe is still a great speed tier, but it's also a very, very crowded one. Additionally Gen 7 in particular introduced a lot of Pokemon that favored raw power or defensive capabilities over Speed, so Kitsunoh isn't hitting as hard as it used to. Losing the Ghost and Dark resistances and picking up a Fairy resistance were also generally negative effects. The plethora of new strategies and versatile threats also make knowing an item less valuable than knowing the actual set.

Does Kitsunoh need a new ability, if so which one should it get and why?


While I think a new ability might be in order for Kitsunoh, I don't think its it's necessary for it to continue to perform a role as a scout. In fact, there is a single *move* in the game which allows you to scout your opponent's entire moveset: Transform. Kitsunoh is almost the perfect Pokemon to use it as well, being able to identify an opponent's item with Frisk, being fast enough to transform on most defensive threats which often have little ability to harm themselves, and being immune to Toxic and resistant to most forms of residual damage on the switchin. Transform would also allow Kitsunoh to run full defensive spreads and use Substitute to scout opponents trying to catch it on the Transform turn (Think Tomohawk trying to Air Slash it).

Having said all that, Imposter is a step too far and metagames with Imposter Pokemon prove aggravating, although Kitsunoh would have only 80 Base HP to use it with, but that's troublesome enough.

Of the abilities discussed that I like Long Reach is probably the best, however there are many abilities to boost general offense and few non-overpowered ones to address defense. Tough Claws for example is more balanced than Fur Coat or Magic Guard, and I'd rather see it get the former than anything from the latter. Intimidate is the most balanced of the defense-oriented abilities.

Btw. Grassy Surge is totally banned from Discussion based (see the Updates PR thread) because it is Pokemon-defining and not suitable for an update.
 

snake

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If we're going to discuss offensive abilities, I think a really interesting one to consider is Iron Fist. Tough Claws and Sheer Force, while very good, are akin to Regenerator in that they're almost blanket solution abilities. Iron Fist is much more targeted towards Kitsunoh's movepool: it boosts Meteor Mash (no current Iron Fist user gets Meteor Mash funnily enough), Ice Punch, and Thunder Punch. Kitsunoh definitely uses the first two, and the last one isn't a terrible pick. It's a modest boost in power that Kitsunoh would enjoy and I think it'd be a creative way to look at an offensive boost than just slapping on Tough Claws ("oh look at us we just made a Base 110 Speed Steel-type with Tough Claws!!"). That being said, I'm not entirely convinced an offensive boost is the route to take with Kitsunoh.
 

Drapionswing

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What flaws are holding Kitsunoh back this generation from reaching its full potential?
Kitsunoh poses an amazing typing in Steel/Ghost, which in theory should provide it with a bounty of switch in opportunities to either remove hazard or gain momentum through U-Turn. However, due to Kitsunoh's poor bulk and lack of recovery it begins to under preform defensively, taking near 1/2 health from strong boosted attacks that you'd it expect it to reliably switch into. Ground-Type's being one of the the best offensive typing right now also pressures kitsunoh as a lot of them can come in and threaten Kitsunoh out whilst also getting up Stealth Rocks, which works completely against Kitsunoh as a defogger. Steel-Types are essential to this metagame and picking Kitsunoh as your designated Steel-Type will lead you to still be weak to things which other Steel-Types can check, making it outclassed and unworthy of a team slot in a lot of scenarios.
Does Kitsunoh need a new ability, if so which one should it get and why?
In this metagame I feel like Kitsunoh's current abilities are not sufficient enough at providing Kitsunoh with a safe way of scouting. An ability I'd like to see Kitsunoh get is Levitate. Levitate provides Kitsunoh with better matchups versus Ground-Type's, allowing it to actually beat some common rockers and effectively Defog, whilst also giving it an ability to freely switch into them to scout movesets. I feel like Levitate is within the scope of a Minor-Update, because Kitsunoh's poor attack and defence still leaves it vulnerable to Ground-Types it does wall as they some sweepers can get to +4 and still beat kitsunoh through a burn. Then there's Ground-Types with Abilities, Moves or Secondary Typings which giving it them ways around Levitate Kitsunoh. Even pokemon that use Ground-Type coverage have ways around Kitsunoh's levitate, but it's no longer as simple as just clicking and attack and breaking Kitsunoh. Giving Kitsunoh something to actual beat will improve it's appeal while Team Building.

Apart from Levitate, the only ability that I've really liked is Long Reach. Long Reach helps with Kitsunohs longevity while it's spamming U-Turn, allowing it to be a extremely good pivot. U-Turn becomes a free click and an easy way to retain momentum, and allows you to punish your opponent when hazards are up. Things like Iron Barbs or Rocky Helmet no longer punish you back, and hey guess what, it's a ghost type so no spinning away my hazards.
 

jas61292

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People have already addressed the first question about the difference between gen 4 and now, so I'd like to focus more on the second question. I think the main flaw with Kitsunoh is simply that, well, it has fallen behind the power creep. Every individual element of Kitsunoh is perfectly serviceable, if not straight up good, individually, but as a whole, it just has nothing that is really all that excellent. If it had a bit more bulk to switch into the things it resists easier, it would be great. Its power, while not amazing, is perfectly acceptable, if it could just take a bit more punishment. On the other hand, if it had a bit more power to threaten things better, it would also be great. Its bulk would be perfectly good, if only it could trouble opponents a bit more. Really, at this point, I think Kit is just a bit too rounded to be good in this metagame, and what it needs is just a small push to increase one element of it, and then it will be fine.

The big question, of course, is what element, and a lot of people in this thread have been looking at the defensive side of things, with abilities like Regenerator, Fluffy, Intimidate, and even Long Reach, all of which are designed to help Kit either take less damage, or heal off the damage that it does take. But, personally, I think Kit would be better served by us looking more at the offensive side of things. Simply put, Kit's stats have an offensive bias, with Speed and Attack being its strongest elements. However, while 103 may have been a fairly good attack stat when Kit was made, it is really quite lacking in today's metagame for a Pokemon who is offensively leaning. The trouble with offensive abilities is that it is very easy to go too far. Tough Claws, for instance, would be a massive boost, and while I do not think it would be broken, I do think it would go beyond the kind of scope that I am interested in for this update. Sheer Force is similar, but a bit weaker, since it pretty much only covers things Tough Claws would. However, I still think this might be too much, and I really dislike the idea of taking away Shadow Strike's Defense drop. Adaptability would be another option, that is on a similar power level (x1.33 instead of x1.3), but far more limited in application. Still, I am unsure if this is too strong for what we want to accomplish here. Which brings me to Iron Fist, first mentioned above by snake_rattler. Iron Fist would boost a number of key moves for Kitsunoh, but at the much more manageable multiplier of x1.2, and without hitting every single important move it uses. While I do think it is a shame that it would not cover Shadow Strike, the defense drop it can give would still make it an invaluable move. I am certainly not completely sold on Iron Fist, but offensive abilities are fairly limited, and among those that I have seen, I think it is the one that would give Kit the best targeted boost, without going too far.
 
Does Kitsunoh need a new ability, if so which one should it get and why?

I don't think that Kitsunoh needs an Ability per se, but getting a new one would allow it to become a bit more versatile and give it another niche that isn't entirely revolved around scouting, which is a strategy that has lost some effectiveness throughout the generations.

Anyway, if we really want to focus mainly on its job as a scout, then the very first Ability that came in mind is Forewarn. While Frisk detects the item held by the opponent, Forewarn reveals the strongest move of the opponent. Sure, it isn't completely reliable, since it can't reveal stuff like Heavy Slam from Celesteela if it also has Flamethrower, or Z-Fly Landorus-T due to Fly being weaker than Earthquake, but it should still help have a better idea of the opponent's set by eventually revealing a crucial move.

Another Ability I had in mind, as weird as it may sound, is Trace. It could pull a similar job, with the difference that it would reveal the Ability of the opponent rather than its item or attack. Also, it has some defensive potential, by Tracing and reflecting Landorus-T's Intimidate or similar Abilities, as well as help against opponents with multiple viable Abilities, like by revealing if you are facing Protean or Battle Bond Greninja.

If we want to help it more on the defensive side, though, then I think that Filter could do a nice job in this case. It would allow Kitsunoh to come in more easily against its opponents, which would help mitigate its average defensive stats and would couple nicely with its already excellent plethora of resistances. Though, plenty of resistances along with reduced damage from supereffective hits… perhaps someone more knowledgeable than me could tell me if this would be too much.

Anyway, aside of those Abilities, the other ones I support are Long Reach and Intimidate. I'm still quite iffy about Grassy Surge, Regenerator and Tough Claws.
 

HeaLnDeaL

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Honestly I just don't think Long Reach is... impressive enough to actually change anything about Kitsunoh. I mean of course it's useful for avoiding chip damage from rough skin when u-turning but overall I feel Frisk just offers more than it, as reachzero has said. Regenerator and Magic Guard both do what Long Reach does but do it way better. Way better. And that's why shade is being brought on them. There's really no defensive ability that is worth using over Frisk without being quite defining on any mon.

Fur Coat and Fluffy are insane abilities and the former is banned from CAP and the later is not balanced at all since Kitsunoh was already dying from fire moves in the first place. Posting a calc showing Kitsunoh takes 300% from a fire attack with Fluffy is utterly pointless since it was being KOed already. Intimidate is less distracting than these options, but the lack of calcs in this thread for it have me doubting whether people just want it as a generically good ability or if it actually helps Kitsunoh.

And then we have the offensive abilities... which... once again... don't have calcs. In theory some of them such as Iron Fist seem promising to occupy that very narrow category between "useful to use over frisk sometimes" and "generically good/overpowered." But I am disheartened to see a lack of calcs... At this point I'm very undecided and as a voter in impending thread, I'd like to be able to see some calcs and I'm sure there's others out there like me as well :s
 

reachzero

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I think if you want an offensive ability on Kitsunoh, the best match for it is absolutely Serene Grace. 100% Defense drop? Yup. Iron Head? Yup. 40% chance of Attack boosting from Meteor Mash? Yes indeed. Serene Grace also has the benefit of being far less generically good that Tough Claws or Iron Fist, and also not allowing Kitsunoh to beat Cyclohm, which is really cool. I'd still prefer a defensive ability, but if offense is what you're looking for, Serene Grace is the best.
 
Honestly I just don't think Long Reach is... impressive enough to actually change anything about Kitsunoh. I mean of course it's useful for avoiding chip damage from rough skin when u-turning but overall I feel Frisk just offers more than it, as reachzero has said. Regenerator and Magic Guard both do what Long Reach does but do it way better. Way better. And that's why shade is being brought on them. There's really no defensive ability that is worth using over Frisk without being quite defining on any mon.
I'd have to agree with HeaL on the merits of Long Reach not being worth it. That being said, all throughout 6th gen on Smogon the go-to ability for Kitsunoh has been Limber. As a base 110spe Pokemon, Kitsunoh is still above average when it comes to speed and those supporting Long Reach do so understanding the role viability of Kitsunoh as a pivot, not a scout. But if Long Reach isn't better than Frisk, it certainly isn't better than Limber. The ability to soak paralyze without relying on an Electric-type is a bonus to the fact that maintaining that high speed is centrally defining to Kitsunoh's usefulness. Kitsunoh is forced into the pivot role not only because it does it well but because in order to survive with such subpar defensive stats, it can't stay in for long. This has been recognized as a fact but not as the synergy it actually represents. Kitsunoh could do with a slight buff, like that of Alakazam (80/90/90) but I'm aware that's not happening. In lieu of such a buff being off the table, there is no strictly defensive move that would make such a minor change worthwhile outside of Limber. Intimidate would mirror such a buff, but only on the physical side where it still gets destroyed by Colossoil, Excadrill or Garchomp. Fluffy and Fur Coat both miss the point when it comes to Kitsunoh. Levitate gives a ground immunity, which while being convenient distracts from both the abilities on the table and does nothing to nuance the viability of Kitsunoh as it currently is. Imposter is an interesting proposition due to it restricting Kitsunoh's moves to the unlucky situation of a substitute but given such a situation, having the likes of Wil-o, Defog, U-turn waiting in the wings seems broken.

Of all the defensive abilities currently proposed, Regenerator is the most viably paired ability for Kitsunoh. Kitsunoh is already a natural speedy pivot user which plays a defensive game but only because it doesn't have the same tools as its peers. Yes, Regenerator is a great ability that you could slap it on anything and it would be wonderful, but look at the Pokemon who currently have Regenerator: they come in two core types.

Walls:
- Toxapex is a standard wall in the meta that not only has Regenerator, but a reliable healing move as well in Recover.
- Amoonguss is a standard wall in the meta that not only has Regenerator, but a reliable healing move as well in Synthesis.
- Tangrowth is a standard wall in the meta that not only has Regenerator, but a reliable healing move as well in Synthesis.
- Slowbro is a standard wall in the meta that not only has Regenerator, but a reliable healing move as well in Slack Off.
Pivots:
- Mienshao is a frail pivot that is capable of revenge killing and tempering momentum.
- Tornadus-T is a frail pivot that is capable of revenge killing and tempering momentum. Also able to take advantage of Assault Vest, an outlier.
-Alomomola is also a bit of an outlier in that it heals with Wish/Protect and as a result falls in the middle of being a tank and a pivot.

Kitsunoh certainly falls into the pivot dimension as we all know. So his 'competition' is as follows (provided by Smogon XY):

Mienshao:
65/125/60/95/60/105
Regenerator Life Orb
- High Jump Kick
- Knock Off
- U-Turn
- Coverage Move

Tornadus-T:
79/100/80/110/90/121
Regenerator Life Orb
- Hurricane
- Knock Off
- U-Turn
- Coverage Move

When looking at the competition, it's hard not to notice that they play similarly to Kitsunoh and Kitsunoh's moveset. A Kitsunoh Orb set could look eerily similar to those who currently would run a RegenOrb set:

Kitsunoh:
80/103/85/55/80/110
Regenerator Life Orb
- Shadow Strike/ Meteor Mash
- Shadow Strike/Knock Off
- U-Turn
- Coverage Move
(this isn't the optional set, but to show similarity)

Kitsunoh's 80/85/80 is very close to Tornadus' 79/80/90 and similar to Mienshao's 65/60/60. This not only allows you to play with Kitsunoh's defense, but worries about an attack boost ability are mitigated in that Life Orb becomes much more viable of a set to the defensive pivot role it currently lives in, creating a similar scenario to the aforementioned. Unlike its peers, it trades physical prowess in 125 atk or 100/110 mixed atk for an average 103 atk that gets two offensively-minded stabs. The bottom line is that while yes Regenerator is a great ability, Kitsunoh is the perfect candidate to receive the ability through an objective analysis of the Pokemon as is. Sure, you can slap it on anything and it'd be good, but unlike 'anything' Kitsunoh is crying out for Regenerator in return. As I said previously, Limber is important in maintaining that high speed is centrally defining to Kitsunoh's usefulness. Regenerator would lift that immunity and make Kitsunoh more vulnerable as a frailer pivoter. This gives room to introduce both defensive and offensive sets that take advantage of Kitsunoh's well-roundedness as well as provide a fair distribution of ability usage (between Limber and Regenerator). I would surmise that the current utility set defog/u-turn would still be prone to opt for Limber as the set isn't meant to even receive chip damage in any meaningful way due to its defensive nature. Taunt is more damaging to such a set than chip damage, and anyone knowing full well they're going to take chip damage would be better off switching out, as unlike something such as Scizor that looks to tank a hit for a safe switch, Kitsunoh is full well supposed to escape first anyhow. Regenerator is, in this situation, the right choice.

(also hi.)

ps snake_rattler:
@snake_rattler: yeah but do we really want to say "darn what do we do with this mon" "i know, regenerator, one of the best abilities ever!" "wow kit's improved a lot since we gave it regen"

If you read the post, and do the looking yourself, you'll see it's not a general "let's give it one of the best abilities ever for the sake of it!" moment. Kitsunoh plays like a pokemon that should have Regenerator while not having Regenerator. Banning the Regenerator ability simply for formality is arbitrary and non-conducive. It's equally lacking in creativity to blanket ban Regenerator or any other OP ability simply for the sake of it and not looking to make proper use of it.
 
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snake

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Alright so Iron Fist vs. Tough Claws. I'm not such a fan of Tough Claws because it powers up Shadow Strike. Ghost-type is such a good attacking type this gen, and if you do 43% and get the drop, you KO on the next hit (assuming no missing, Leftovers recovery, etc). Shadow Strike shouldn't be shredding through teams like that. What Iron Fist does over Tough Claws-boosted Shadow Strike is power up Kitsunoh's other moves to potentially follow up on Shadow Strike. Tough Claws make U-turn also not hit like a wet paper sack, which is something to think about also. Iron Fist forces some diversity in Kit's sets will still acting as a cool pivot and offensive defogger, where as Tough Claws makes Kitsunoh into a paper shredder. But I'll stop talking and just start calcing.

For reference, the calcs will be as follows:
Unboosted Kit
Iron Fist Kit
Tough Claws Kit

The magic 43% will be bolded for Shadow Strike calcs to denote a 2HKO if the drop happens. If the target holds Leftovers, it will be 45.5%.

Kitsunoh @ Choice Band
Ability: Iron Fist / Tough Claws
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Meteor Mash
- Shadow Strike
- Ice Punch
- U-turn / Thunder Punch

vs. Tapu Fini
252 Atk Choice Band Kitsunoh Meteor Mash vs. 248 HP / 192 Def Tapu Fini: 142-168 (41.3 - 48.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Kitsunoh Meteor Mash vs. 248 HP / 192 Def Tapu Fini: 169-201 (49.2 - 58.6%) -- 67.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Kitsunoh Meteor Mash vs. 248 HP / 192 Def Tapu Fini: 184-217 (53.6 - 63.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Choice Band Kitsunoh Shadow Strike vs. 248 HP / 192 Def Tapu Fini: 126-148 (36.7 - 43.1%) -- 99.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Kitsunoh Shadow Strike vs. 248 HP / 192 Def Tapu Fini: 126-148 (36.7 - 43.1%) -- 99.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Kitsunoh Shadow Strike vs. 248 HP / 192 Def Tapu Fini: 163-193 (47.5 - 56.2%) -- 29.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

vs. Defensive Landorus-T
-1 252 Atk Choice Band Kitsunoh Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Landorus-Therian: 224-264 (58.6 - 69.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 252 Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Kitsunoh Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Landorus-Therian: 268-316 (70.1 - 82.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 252 Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Kitsunoh Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Landorus-Therian: 292-344 (76.4 - 90%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

vs. Defensive Tomohawk
252 Atk Choice Band Kitsunoh Shadow Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 129-153 (31.1 - 36.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Kitsunoh Shadow Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 129-153 (31.1 - 36.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Kitsunoh Shadow Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 168-198 (40.5 - 47.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

vs. Specially Defensive Celesteela
252 Atk Choice Band Kitsunoh Shadow Strike vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Celesteela: 162-192 (40.7 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Kitsunoh Shadow Strike vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Celesteela: 162-192 (40.7 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Kitsunoh Shadow Strike vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Celesteela: 211-249 (53 - 62.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Choice Band Kitsunoh Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Celesteela: 204-240 (51.2 - 60.3%) -- 90.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Kitsunoh Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Celesteela: 244-288 (61.3 - 72.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Kitsunoh Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Celesteela: 264-312 (66.3 - 78.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

vs. SubCoil Zygarde
252 Atk Choice Band Kitsunoh Ice Punch vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 356-420 (85.3 - 100.7%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Kitsunoh Ice Punch vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 428-504 (102.6 - 120.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Kitsunoh Ice Punch vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 464-548 (111.2 - 131.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Choice Band Kitsunoh Shadow Strike vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 142-168 (34 - 40.2%) -- 36.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Kitsunoh Shadow Strike vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 142-168 (34 - 40.2%) -- 36.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Kitsunoh Shadow Strike vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 184-217 (44.1 - 52%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery (this one's pretty close!)

vs. Bulky Mega Scizor
252 Atk Choice Band Kitsunoh Shadow Strike vs. 248 HP / 116+ Def Scizor-Mega: 105-124 (30.6 - 36.1%) -- 51.9% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Kitsunoh Shadow Strike vs. 248 HP / 116+ Def Scizor-Mega: 105-124 (30.6 - 36.1%) -- 51.9% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Kitsunoh Shadow Strike vs. 248 HP / 116+ Def Scizor-Mega: 135-160 (39.3 - 46.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

vs. Defensive Cyclohm
252 Atk Choice Band Kitsunoh Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cyclohm: 136-160 (32.3 - 38%) -- 0.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Kitsunoh Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cyclohm: 160-190 (38 - 45.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Kitsunoh Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cyclohm: 176-208 (41.9 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

vs. AV Magearna
252 Atk Choice Band Kitsunoh Meteor Mash vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 166-196 (45.7 - 53.9%) -- 44.9% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Kitsunoh Meteor Mash vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 199-235 (54.8 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Kitsunoh Meteor Mash vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 216-255 (59.5 - 70.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

From these calcs, I can say that Choice Band-boosted Shadow Strike is basically hoping for a drop, much easier than before. Defensive Tomohawk has less turns to Roost stall and use Helmet to chip down Kitsunoh, possibly letting Kit break through it. Same for Mega Scizor. Notably Clohm still dodges any sort of 2HKO from Kitsunoh. Honestly, the fact that Shadow Strike gets boosted by Tough Claws makes me not want to support it at all.

EDIT: I don't know if I made this clear or not, but Tough Claws is stupid.

Now before you go on to say "doesn't Iron Fist hit harder than Metagross-Mega?" (it does, slightly), let's review some facts. First, they have the exact same speed tier, so Kitsunoh isn't outspeeding anything new. Second, Kitsunoh is Choice locked into its moves, and, like it or not, that's an extreme hinderance for Kitsunoh. Furthermore, you don't have a boosted secondary STAB like Metagross-Mega's ZHB, which means that Tomohawk is still checking you. Finally, and most importantly, Kitsunoh doesn't have the extreme bulk that Metagross-Mega had. 80 / 85 / 80 is so much less than 80 / 150 / 110. I can do calcs for these too, but honestly we can all agree that Choice Band Iron Fist Kitsunoh isn't a discount Metagross-Mega. And this really shouldn't be a deal breaker for Iron Fist either. Kitsunoh only hits harder than Metagross-Mega when it's holding a Choice Band. Any other item and it's weaker than it.

Alright so now that we've seen that Tough Claws Kitsunoh is a bad idea, let's move onto some sets we could see with Kitsunoh (in addition to a Choice Band set). Let me preface this with a bit of a disclaimer. We've identified in this very thread that Kit's bulk isn't all that impressive and it can't switch in that well. Offensive calcs can be scary, but remember that these are offensive sets on a mon that can't tank hits well anyways. I'm presenting Iron Fist as genuinely as I can - if you don't like Iron Fist idk what to say because this is just about the weakest offensive ability in the barrel.

Kitsunoh @ Leftovers / Life Orb
Ability: Iron Fist
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Meteor Mash / Shadow Strike
- Ice Punch / Shadow Strike
- U-turn / Shadow Strike
- Defog

Meteor Mash and Ice Punch get the boost, and U-turn lets Kitsunoh pivot out of unfavorable match ups. Defog is still a really useful tool for Kitsunoh; not all Iron Fist sets are pure offense. Shadow Strike of course, imo the most annoying move ever, is an option over either Ice Punch or U-turn. Leftovers for longevity of course, or Life Orb for more power, though the way Kitsunoh plays now I'm not sure even Life Orb would be a good choice.

Calcs will be presented in this order:
Frisk Leftovers
Frisk Life Orb
Iron Fist Leftovers
Iron Fist Life Orb

vs. AV Magearna
252 Atk Kitsunoh Meteor Mash vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 111-132 (30.5 - 36.3%) -- 53.2% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Kitsunoh Meteor Mash vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 144-172 (39.6 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Iron Fist Kitsunoh Meteor Mash vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 135-159 (37.1 - 43.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Kitsunoh Meteor Mash vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 175-207 (48.2 - 57%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO

vs. Physically Defensive Landorus-T
0 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kitsunoh: 338-402 (112.2 - 133.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

-1 252 Atk Kitsunoh Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Landorus-Therian: 152-180 (39.7 - 47.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
-1 252 Atk Life Orb Kitsunoh Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Landorus-Therian: 198-234 (51.8 - 61.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 252 Atk Iron Fist Kitsunoh Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Landorus-Therian: 180-212 (47.1 - 55.4%) -- 67.2% chance to 2HKO
-1 252 Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Kitsunoh Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Landorus-Therian: 234-276 (61.2 - 72.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

vs. Offensive Landorus-T
-1 252 Atk Kitsunoh Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus-Therian: 204-240 (63.9 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 252 Atk Life Orb Kitsunoh Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus-Therian: 265-312 (83 - 97.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 252 Atk Iron Fist Kitsunoh Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus-Therian: 244-288 (76.4 - 90.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 252 Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Kitsunoh Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus-Therian: 317-374 (99.3 - 117.2%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

vs. Mew
252 Atk Kitsunoh Shadow Strike vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 222-264 (54.9 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Kitsunoh Shadow Strike vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 289-343 (71.5 - 84.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

vs. Defensive Tomohawk
252 Atk Kitsunoh Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 97-115 (23.4 - 27.7%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Kitsunoh Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 126-149 (30.4 - 35.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Kitsunoh Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 97-115 (23.4 - 27.7%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Kitsunoh Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 152-179 (36.7 - 43.2%) -- 98.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Kitsunoh @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Iron Fist
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Meteor Mash
- Shadow Strike / Thunder Punch
- Ice Punch
- U-turn / Thunder Punch

Iron Fist actually enables the Choice Scarf set everyone tries until they realize 103 Attack is really bad. Going to calc against some Scarf Pokemon.

vs. Scarf Tapu Lele
252 Atk Kitsunoh Shadow Strike vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tapu Lele: 282-332 (100.3 - 118.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
no change here

vs. Defensive Landorus-T
-1 252 Atk Kitsunoh Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Landorus-Therian: 152-180 (39.7 - 47.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
-1 252 Atk Iron Fist Kitsunoh Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Landorus-Therian: 180-212 (47.1 - 55.4%) -- 67.2% chance to 2HKO

vs. Offensive Landorus-T
-1 252 Atk Kitsunoh Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus-Therian: 204-240 (63.9 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 252 Atk Iron Fist Kitsunoh Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus-Therian: 244-288 (76.4 - 90.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

vs. Scarf Volkraken
252 Atk Kitsunoh Thunder Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Volkraken: 170-200 (49.7 - 58.4%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Iron Fist Kitsunoh Thunder Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Volkraken: 202-238 (59 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
doesn't make that much of a difference in terms of 2HKO/OHKO

vs. Scarf Keldeo
252 Atk Kitsunoh Thunder Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Keldeo: 152-180 (47 - 55.7%) -- 74.6% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Iron Fist Kitsunoh Thunder Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Keldeo: 182-216 (56.3 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

vs. Scarf Garchomp
252 Atk Kitsunoh Ice Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 292-348 (81.5 - 97.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Iron Fist Kitsunoh Ice Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 352-416 (98.3 - 116.2%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

Iron Fist, in short, enables many offensive sets that still have utility options, though it's mainly Defog. Wispy Kit sets are still good for scouting out Z Crystals and items, but Iron Fist allows Kitsunoh to run offensive sets that make an impact in the metagame. If Iron Fist offensive sets aren't cutting it for you though, the offensive route might not be the way to go because Iron Fist is the least impactful offensive ability option. For a minor update though, I think this ability buff is appropriate.
 
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G-Luke

Sugar, Spice and One For All
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While I like Regenerator, Iron sways me as I believe strengthening its power is better overall.
 
Kitsunoh is pretty frail anyway, so buffing its bulk with Regenerator won't necessarily work as well as we'd like. While I cannot imagine Kitsunoh's paw punches being that powerful by any means, Iron Fist is a nice method of boosting Kitsunoh's offensive capabilities. Kitsunoh already has a lovely 110 Speed, so why not buff her power?
 
While I like Regenerator, Iron sways me as I believe strengthening its power is better overall.
I agree with putting forth a more modern damage output, but the 1.3x boost from Life Orb in exchange for the 10% HP drop and item slot is typical for a speedy pivot type (re: Mienshao and Tornadus-T) that has Regenerator and gives a reliable boost that doesn't overshadow/make redundant the other abilities Kitsunoh has. Additionally, Rockey Helmet or Leftovers can be maintained on the utility sets and function equally well defensively. This addresses Kitsunoh's well-rounded average stat spread and promise as both a defensive and offensive pivot. Ask yourself, realistically, what value Iron Fist has that would make you want to choose it over Limber or Frisk. Honestly, it's not a good option because it encourages Kitsunoh to actively work against its strength as a scout/pivot type Pokemon.

Second, Kitsunoh is Choice locked into its moves, and, like it or not, that's an extreme hinderance for Kitsunoh. Kitsunoh only hits harder than Metagross-Mega when it's holding a Choice Band. Any other item and it's weaker than it.
I agree, Band/Scarf don't make use of Kitsunoh's abilities. The reason it's an "extreme hinderance" for Kitsunoh is because Kitsunoh is most effective when it's able to play an indirect role spreading status, removing hazards and messing with momentum. Because of that, running both Meteor Mash and Thunder/Ice Punch on the same set is very unlikely and while cute, doesn't really merit the slot it would take offensively that something else could fill. Your justification for Iron Fist over Tough Claws is that it Tough Claws works on Shadow Strike/U-Turn isn't without merit. I'd have to agree that Tough Claws is the offensive equivalent to Fur Coat and neither of those really accentuate the role of Kitsunoh. Also Tough Claws paired with Life Orb would be ridiculously broken.

If Iron Fist offensive sets aren't cutting it for you though, the offensive route might not be the way to go because Iron Fist is the least impactful offensive ability option. For a minor update though, I think this ability buff is appropriate.
I disagree however with your implicit notion that Iron Fist is the only viable offensive ability on the table for a minor buff. At 1.2x it's not out of the realm of RegenOrb 1.3x, which I explained above. Also of note, snake_rattler paired Tough Claws with Choice Band to get a ridiculous 1.8x atk multiplier which, much like the 1.6x Tough Claws/Life Orb multiplier, is nonsense that no one should support. The calcs below will show Life Orb (1.3x) calcs with potential -1 Defense drops from Shadow Strike.

252 Atk Life Orb Kitsunoh Meteor Mash vs. 248 HP / 192 Def Tapu Fini: 122-146 (35.5 - 42.5%) -- 93.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Kitsunoh Meteor Mash vs. -1 248 HP / 192 Def Tapu Fini: 185-218 (53.9 - 63.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Kitsunoh Shadow Strike vs. 248 HP / 192 Def Tapu Fini: 109-130 (31.7 - 37.9%) -- 0.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Kitsunoh Shadow Strike vs. -1 248 HP / 192 Def Tapu Fini: 165-195 (48.1 - 56.8%) -- 40.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

-1 252 Atk Life Orb Kitsunoh Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Landorus-Therian: 198-234 (51.8 - 61.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 252 Atk Life Orb Kitsunoh Ice Punch vs. -1 252 HP / 216+ Def Landorus-Therian: 291-343 (76.1 - 89.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 252 Atk Life Orb Kitsunoh Shadow Strike vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Landorus-Therian: 75-91 (19.6 - 23.8%) -- possible 5HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Kitsunoh Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 140-166 (33.8 - 40%) -- 33.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Kitsunoh Ice Punch vs. -1 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 211-250 (50.9 - 60.3%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Kitsunoh Shadow Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 110-133 (26.5 - 32.1%) -- 37.9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Kitsunoh Shadow Strike vs. -1 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 168-199 (40.5 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Life Orb Kitsunoh Shadow Strike vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Celesteela: 142-168 (35.6 - 42.2%) -- 86.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Kitsunoh Shadow Strike vs. -1 252 HP / 4 Def Celesteela: 211-250 (53 - 62.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Kitsunoh Thunder Punch vs. -1 252 HP / 4 Def Celesteela: 265-312 (66.5 - 78.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (why are you using Thunder Punch?)

252 Atk Life Orb Kitsunoh Ice Punch vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 312-369 (74.8 - 88.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Life Orb Kitsunoh Shadow Strike vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Scizor-Mega: 109-129 (31.6 - 37.5%) -- 83.9% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Kitsunoh Shadow Strike vs. -1 252 HP / 0 Def Scizor-Mega: 164-192 (47.6 - 55.8%) -- 82.8% chance to 2HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Kitsunoh Ice Punch vs. -1 252 HP / 252+ Def Cyclohm: 177-208 (42.1 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Kitsunoh Shadow Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cyclohm: 94-110 (22.3 - 26.1%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Life Orb Kitsunoh Meteor Mash vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 144-172 (39.6 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Kitsunoh Meteor Mash vs. -1 248 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 218-257 (60 - 70.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Kitsunoh Shadow Strike vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 130-153 (35.8 - 42.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Kitsunoh Shadow Strike vs. -1 248 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 192-227 (52.8 - 62.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


Keep in mind that despite being able to potentially, with defense drop, 2KO most of these, you're likely going to lose the battle before you a) get the drop and/or b) won't have the coverage move to 2KO with (unless for some reason you run a pure offensive set or some kind of Iron Fist wannabe set, in which case why are you doing that?). In terms of boosting Shadow Strike and U-Turn, U-Turn does get a boost allowing it to 2KHO some things but at risk (e.g. Colossoil's Sucker Punch or Greninja's HP Fire/Dark Pulse) of losing that battle as well. Ultimately, this plays to the strengths of Kitsunoh (being a pivot) giving it a modest buff that can be taken advantage of offensive or defensively while not being overtly broken like Tough Claws or useless like Iron Fist.
 

snake

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CAP Co-Leader
I agree with putting forth a more modern damage output, but the 1.3x boost from Life Orb in exchange for the 10% HP drop and item slot is typical for a speedy pivot type (re: Mienshao and Tornadus-T) that has Regenerator and gives a reliable boost that doesn't overshadow/make redundant the other abilities Kitsunoh has. Additionally, Rockey Helmet or Leftovers can be maintained on the utility sets and function equally well defensively. This addresses Kitsunoh's well-rounded average stat spread and promise as both a defensive and offensive pivot. Ask yourself, realistically, what value Iron Fist has that would make you want to choose it over Limber or Frisk. Honestly, it's not a good option because it encourages Kitsunoh to actively work against its strength as a scout/pivot type Pokemon.



I agree, Band/Scarf don't make use of Kitsunoh's abilities. The reason it's an "extreme hinderance" for Kitsunoh is because Kitsunoh is most effective when it's able to play an indirect role spreading status, removing hazards and messing with momentum. Because of that, running both Meteor Mash and Thunder/Ice Punch on the same set is very unlikely and while cute, doesn't really merit the slot it would take offensively that something else could fill. Your justification for Iron Fist over Tough Claws is that it Tough Claws works on Shadow Strike/U-Turn isn't without merit. I'd have to agree that Tough Claws is the offensive equivalent to Fur Coat and neither of those really accentuate the role of Kitsunoh. Also Tough Claws paired with Life Orb would be ridiculously broken.



I disagree however with your implicit notion that Iron Fist is the only viable offensive ability on the table for a minor buff. At 1.2x it's not out of the realm of RegenOrb 1.3x, which I explained above. Also of note, snake_rattler paired Tough Claws with Choice Band to get a ridiculous 1.8x atk multiplier which, much like the 1.6x Tough Claws/Life Orb multiplier, is nonsense that no one should support. The calcs below will show Life Orb (1.3x) calcs with potential -1 Defense drops from Shadow Strike.

252 Atk Life Orb Kitsunoh Meteor Mash vs. 248 HP / 192 Def Tapu Fini: 122-146 (35.5 - 42.5%) -- 93.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Kitsunoh Meteor Mash vs. -1 248 HP / 192 Def Tapu Fini: 185-218 (53.9 - 63.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Kitsunoh Shadow Strike vs. 248 HP / 192 Def Tapu Fini: 109-130 (31.7 - 37.9%) -- 0.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Kitsunoh Shadow Strike vs. -1 248 HP / 192 Def Tapu Fini: 165-195 (48.1 - 56.8%) -- 40.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

-1 252 Atk Life Orb Kitsunoh Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Landorus-Therian: 198-234 (51.8 - 61.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 252 Atk Life Orb Kitsunoh Ice Punch vs. -1 252 HP / 216+ Def Landorus-Therian: 291-343 (76.1 - 89.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 252 Atk Life Orb Kitsunoh Shadow Strike vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Landorus-Therian: 75-91 (19.6 - 23.8%) -- possible 5HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Kitsunoh Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 140-166 (33.8 - 40%) -- 33.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Kitsunoh Ice Punch vs. -1 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 211-250 (50.9 - 60.3%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Kitsunoh Shadow Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 110-133 (26.5 - 32.1%) -- 37.9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Kitsunoh Shadow Strike vs. -1 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 168-199 (40.5 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Life Orb Kitsunoh Shadow Strike vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Celesteela: 142-168 (35.6 - 42.2%) -- 86.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Kitsunoh Shadow Strike vs. -1 252 HP / 4 Def Celesteela: 211-250 (53 - 62.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Kitsunoh Thunder Punch vs. -1 252 HP / 4 Def Celesteela: 265-312 (66.5 - 78.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (why are you using Thunder Punch?)

252 Atk Life Orb Kitsunoh Ice Punch vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 312-369 (74.8 - 88.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Life Orb Kitsunoh Shadow Strike vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Scizor-Mega: 109-129 (31.6 - 37.5%) -- 83.9% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Kitsunoh Shadow Strike vs. -1 252 HP / 0 Def Scizor-Mega: 164-192 (47.6 - 55.8%) -- 82.8% chance to 2HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Kitsunoh Ice Punch vs. -1 252 HP / 252+ Def Cyclohm: 177-208 (42.1 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Kitsunoh Shadow Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cyclohm: 94-110 (22.3 - 26.1%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Life Orb Kitsunoh Meteor Mash vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 144-172 (39.6 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Kitsunoh Meteor Mash vs. -1 248 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 218-257 (60 - 70.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Kitsunoh Shadow Strike vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 130-153 (35.8 - 42.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Kitsunoh Shadow Strike vs. -1 248 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 192-227 (52.8 - 62.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


Keep in mind that despite being able to potentially, with defense drop, 2KO most of these, you're likely going to lose the battle before you a) get the drop and/or b) won't have the coverage move to 2KO with (unless for some reason you run a pure offensive set or some kind of Iron Fist wannabe set, in which case why are you doing that?). In terms of boosting Shadow Strike and U-Turn, U-Turn does get a boost allowing it to 2KHO some things but at risk (e.g. Colossoil's Sucker Punch or Greninja's HP Fire/Dark Pulse) of losing that battle as well. Ultimately, this plays to the strengths of Kitsunoh (being a pivot) giving it a modest buff that can be taken advantage of offensive or defensively while not being overtly broken like Tough Claws or useless like Iron Fist.
Alright I think we've come off on the wrong foot. You've taken some of my sentences out of context, which makes their meaning very different.

My "implicit notion" that Iron Fist is the only offensive ability could have been a little clearer; basically I was saying that "if these Iron Fist calculations are undesirable, other abilities that have been proposed such as Tough Claws and Sheer Force aren't going to be any better. Regenerator was not on my radar when I made this post. I was looking purely at direct offensive buffs: Iron Fist and Tough Claws purely buff moves' power, and Regenerator makes a Life Orb set much easier to use, an indirect offensive buff. Also, nowhere in my post do I mention that I want Tough Claws. I was doing comparisons with Tough Claws and non-Tough Claws boosted moves just to show that Tough Claws is a dumb idea, not something we want to consider at all. I'm pretty sure I made that clear. Instead, I tried to give an alternative, Iron Fist, which is a clear step down from Tough Claws. Perhaps it's not the best ability, but it's a much more feasible option on Kitsunoh.

Also, when I was talking about the "extreme hinderance" of Choice Kitsunoh, if you read past the few sentences that you copied, you can see I was arguing how Iron Fist Kitsunoh does not create a Metagross-Mega 2.0, which I fear some people would conclude. What you did was take it out of context and tried to put words in my mouth, and I honestly don't appreciate that. My point was that Iron Fist Kitsunoh isn't a copy of Metagross-Mega...because it's not: I listed the same speed tier, the Choice Lock (the only one you bothered quoting), a lack of a boosted secondary STAB, and way less bulk. It was NOT "yeah Choice lock is an extreme hinderance for Kitsunoh because Kitsunoh should be running status moves" like you seem to imply me saying in your response. The "extreme hinderance" was "Metagross-Mega had the liberty to switch moves; whereas Choice Band Iron Fist Kitsunoh does not" I was trying to show that when you run Choice Band, the most powerful item Kitsunoh can run, it's not an overpowered option and isn't a copy of Metagross-Mega. The goal of Iron Fist Kitsunoh is make it so that you can run an offensive Defog set better without being forced to run Shadow Strike as your only offensive move solely because it's the only one that has any sort of power behind it and has the defense drop. Again, I could have made that more clear, but next time quote the whole paragraph so you don't confuse people about what I actually meant.

If you read the last part of my post where I show some the first set, you see that Iron Fist helps Kitsunoh actually run an offensive utility set without being a complete momentum sink (as opposed to its fast (not offensive!) utility set of 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Spe set with WoW or Toxic / Shadow Strike / U-turn / Defog) because it can actually have some power behind its moves, and it lets other moves like Meteor Mash, Ice Punch, and Thunder Punch be actual options, giving Kitsunoh some different attacking options for an offensive Defog set, or an effective Choice set. Choice sets have been run in the past but have fallen out of viability due to the power creep and 103 Attack being not enough power to be worth running a Band set.

I see the merit in Regenerator but dislike how Regenerator is one of the top abilities in the game. Iron Fist was just my attempt to tackle Kitsunoh's issues in a different way other than giving it something like Intimidate, Regenerator, or Fluffy, abilities that are just generically good. I feel like my post touched on how Iron Fist allows Kitsunoh to perform offensively in the metagame while still retaining some utility in Defog.
 
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