CAP Updates: Cyclohm Discussion (Complete)

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Final Submission

- Tri Attack
- Double Hit
- Weather Ball
- Bide
- Tackle
- Growl
Evolution: Tri Attack
4 Charge
8 Thunder Shock
13 Sonic Boom
16 Dragon Rage
20 Rain Dance
25 Electro Ball
28 Whirlwind
33 Slack Off
39 Discharge
43 Thrash
50 Thunder
58 Ion Deluge
64 Lock On
64 Zap Cannon
Since as admitted Cyclohm's movepool is kind of all over the place (like several other CAPs') and there is precedent for pattern changes between generations (compare the gaps between e.g. Stunky's moves in G4 vs G7) I have decided to revamp it considering the existence of new moves and the new evolution move mechanic. Note that my considerations about pre-evolutions are not meant to be binding and serve mostly as an insight to my though process while designing the updated movepool.
I started by rebuilding Monohm's movepool by having moves learned at 3-4-5-level intervals, and added increasing delays after the supposed evolution levels like what happens with most Pokémon. Again, this is non-binding and could be disregarded when Monohm's and Duohm's movepools will be officially designed.

1 (Weather Ball), Bide, Tackle, Growl
4 Charge
8 Thunder Shock
13 Sonic Boom
16 Dragon Rage
20 Rain Dance
25 Electro Ball
28 Whirlwind
29-31: Monohm -> Duohm: Double Hit
(32)33 Slack Off
(37)39 Discharge
(40)43 Thrash
41-47: Duohm -> Cyclohm: Tri Attack
(44)(48)50 Thunder
(49)(54)58 Ion Deluge
(52)(58)64 Lock On, Zap Cannon
- Tri Attack is now an evolution move (duplicated at level 1 as usual), like Magneton and Dodrio.
- Double Hit is also level 1, since I envision it as an evolution move for Duohm like Tri Attack. Evolution moves for pre-evolutions are always (?) learnt by later forms at level 1, if kept. Even if it ends up not being an evolution move, Zweilous has it at level 1.
- Some other moves, especially early ones, have been shuffled for consistency (Sonic Boom is a weak move and as such is usually learned very early, Whirlwind is unusual at level 1...). I have not bothered to mark every change, just the highest relative gaps.
- Electro Ball is a filler move shared by the Mareep line as well as several other Electric-types; due to Cyclohm's slow speed it shouldn't be overbearing.
- Ion Deluge = Ion Flood/Rain, which fits the electrified atmosphere during a thunderstorm.
- Weather Ball was actually present in Cyclohm's pre-revision movepool, and the reason it was removed (movepool limits) apparently is no longer binding. It should not be overbearing, as Cyclohm already has strong Fire/Water/Ice coverage and weather is no longer permanent. All evolved Pokémon which get it naturally (Roserade and Vanilluxe) do so at level 1.
- As a purely flavour addition, I really wanted to add Thunder as a level-up move for obvious reasons.

Dragon Breath
Dragon Pulse (from Horsea and others)
Eerie Impulse (from Heliolisk)
Electric Terrain (from Mareep <- Manectric)
Heal Bell
Hydro Pump
Magnetic Flux (from Ampharos)
Mud-Slap
Power Gem
Twister (from Horsea and others)
- Eerie Impulse, Magnetic Flux and Electric Terrain represent - like Ion Deluge - the electrified atmosphere of a thunderstorm, and all can be learned in some way by fellow Electric sheep Ampharos. I do not see Electric Terrain as unfitting, since Cyclohm is grounded (Magnet Rise is even banned on it) despite being a thundercloud.
- Twister is a G4 tutor, is vastly outclassed by every other Dragon move and is added as an egg move purely for flavour.
- Dragon Pulse is - again - a tutor move, but since it is a primary STAB I feel it should be easily available without needing previous games.

TM01 Work Up
TM02 Dragon Claw
TM05 Roar
TM06 Toxic
TM07 Hail
TM10 Hidden Power
TM11 Sunny Day
TM13 Ice Beam
TM14 Blizzard
TM15 Hyper Beam
TM16 Light Screen
TM17 Protect
TM18 Rain Dance
TM21 Frustration
TM24 Thunderbolt
TM25 Thunder
TM26 Earthquake
TM27 Return
TM32 Double Team
TM35 Flamethrower
TM37 Sandstorm
TM38 Fire Blast
TM40 Aerial Ace
TM41 Torment
TM42 Facade
TM44 Rest
TM45 Attract
TM48 Round
TM49 Echoed Voice
TM57 Charge Beam
TM68 Giga Impact
Volt Switch
TM73 Thunder Wave
TM78 Bulldoze
TM82 Dragon Tail
TM87 Swagger
TM88 Sleep Talk
TM90 Substitute
TM92 Trick Room
TM93 Wild Charge
TM94 Surf
TM95 Snarl
TM96 Nature Power
TM98 Waterfall
TM100 Confide
- Confide, Round and Swagger are universal.
- Volt Switch is required.
- Bulldoze is implied by Earthquake.
- Dragon Tail is common among dragons and tailed Pokémon, even Pokémon with small tails like Axew, Deino and Meganium. Note that Cyclohm already learns Whirlwind and Roar as shuffling moves.
- Echoed Voice has a wide distribution, including Hydreigon and Dodrio as multi-headed Pokémon. I guess Cyclohm's heads could use it together.
- Again, I can see Work Up as Cyclohm's heads cheering each other up or something. For comparison, the Hydreigon line also gets it; note that Cyclohm has already a way to raise its own special attack in Charge Beam.
- I feel a thunder cloud is enough of a force of nature to justify Nature Power, unless the moves it turns into under terrains are deemed too powerful. (By default it turns into Tri Attack, which Cyclohm already learns.)
- Wild Charge is almost universal among Electric-types.
- Snarl represents the rumbling of thunder, and its menacing connotations fit an incoming thunderstorm.

Draco Meteor
Dragon Pulse
Electroweb
Headbutt (G4)
Hyper Voice
Iron Tail
Mud-Slap (G4, also an egg move)
Outrage
Shock Wave
Signal Beam
Snore
Swift (G4)
Twister (G4, also a new egg move)
Water Pulse
Zen Headbutt
- Dragon Pulse, Shock Wave and Dragon Pulse are old TMs.
- Iron Tail and Zen Headbutt were part of Cyclohm's original winning movepool, and were removed due to movepool limits which, again, don't seem to be binding anymore. In particular, Iron Tail is pretty much universal among Pokémon with any sort of tail (including stuff like Psyduck), and Zen Headbutt is common in general. Both run off Cyclohm's lower Attack.
- Thunderstorms sure are noisy, so have Hyper Voice.
- I feel Electroweb is justified by the "webs of lightning" which cross the sky during actual thunderstorms, plus it is already widely distributed among Electric-types.

Captivate (G4 TM78)
Endure (G4 TM58)
Flash (G4/5/6 TM70)
Incinerate (G5/6 TM59)
Natural Gift (G4 TM83)
Secret Power (G4 TM43 / ORAS TM94)
Strength (HM04)
- Incinerate is the only addition: Cyclohm already has much stronger Fire coverage, and consider what happens to trees struck by lightning.
- Some old TMs became tutors (e.g. Dragon Pulse) or changed number (e.g. Sleep Talk, Work Up) and as such are not noted here.

------------------------

Other considered moves:
- Dual Chop, despite being a Dragon move and seeming similar to Double Hit, is not related to multiple heads; notably Zweilous does not get it.
- Soak. While it does fit a raincloud, it is strictly restricted to Water-types (plus Azurill); not even Thundurus gets it. Additionally, not only it would make opponents weak to Cyclohm's STAB, but it would also remove their own STAB; thus Cyclohm would be able to endure hits better while being capable of hitting everything super-effectively with careful enough prediction. No idea if this would actually be overpowered, but I don't want to take the risk without discussion involving someone with actual expertise.
 
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LucarioOfLegends

Master Procraster
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Final Submission

- Whirlwind
- Ion Deluge
- Double Hit
- Bide
- Tackle
- Growl
Evo: Tri Attack
7 Sonic Boom

11 Charge
15 Thunder Shock
19 Dragon Rage
23 Twister
29 Rain Dance

34 Discharge
40 Slack Off
45 Thrash
51 Thunder
56 Lock-On
62 Zap Cannon



Holy hand grenades this movepool is everywhere. So, changed the ordering of Rain Dance, Dragon Rage and Double Hit to the one above, and decided to streamline the moveset by making move progression a 6-5 pattern starting at Double Hit, which will be changed to Lvl. 23 to make it more consistent with its earlier moveset. Made Tri Attack and evolution move, since both Magneton and Dodrio, who have three heads, get it through that way. Dragon Rage and Sonic Boom will switch places, since that makes zero sense to give it a weaker move later on. While I am hesitant about this, changed Zap Cannon to Lvl. 62 to better reflect the modern levels of this move in the 60's.Thunder was added because not having Thunder on a Pokemon centered around the weather and having Rain Dance is a sin. Added Ion Deluge because it fits with the science behind storm clouds and lightning. I changed added Double Hit as a Lvl. 1 move cause Duohm would get it as an evolution move. Because of this Twister was added to compensate and for its lack of dragon moves.

TM02 Dragon Claw
TM03 Water Pulse
TM05 Roar
TM06 Toxic
TM07 Hail
TM10 Hidden Power
TM11 Sunny Day
TM13 Ice Beam
TM14 Blizzard
TM15 Hyper Beam
TM16 Light Screen
TM17 Protect
TM18 Rain Dance
TM21 Frustration
TM24 Thunderbolt
TM25 Thunder
TM26 Earthquake
TM27 Return
TM32 Double Team
TM35 Flamethrower
TM37 Sandstorm
TM38 Fire Blast
TM40 Aerial Ace
TM41 Torment
TM42 Facade
TM44 Rest
TM45 Attract
TM48 Round
TM57 Charge Beam
TM59 Incinerate
TM68 Giga Impact
TM72 Volt Switch
TM73 Thunder Wave
TM78 Bulldoze
TM82 Dragon Tail
TM87 Swagger

TM88 Sleep Talk
TM90 Substitute
TM92 Trick Room
TM93 Wild Charge
TM94 Surf
TM96 Nature Power
TM98 Waterfall
TM100 Confide


Added the required moves in Swagger, Confide, and Volt Switch. Also doesn't get Round, so added that. Bulldoze is also required because of Earthquake, and therefore move-to-move. Incinerate is added because of its already existing fire moves, plus lightning is at such a high heat that it incinerates anything in the area. HM transfers also are added to the TM list, those being Surf and Waterfall. Cyclohm is The Scout a force of nature, so Nature Power makes plenty of sense. 90% of all lightning actually occurs in the stormcloud, and it gets static, so I think Wild Charge makes sense with this logic. It a strong Dragon, and it has a tail, so Dragon Tail makes perfect sense. Sleep talk gets overrun by Dragon Tail anyways, so might as well change it.

Aqua Tail
Draco Meteor
Dragon Pulse
Electroweb
Heat Wave
Iron Tail
Icy Wind
Mud-Slap
Outrage
Shock Wave
Signal Beam
Snore
Twister
Water Pulse

While seemingly an odd choice, Heat Wave was added because it is overshadowed by Fire Blast, and a heat wave is a period of hot weather, so it works well with the flavor motif, plus some dragons get it. Shock Wave and Water Pulse make flavor sense with its weather abilities, and are overlap for its other moves of that type. Aqua Tail is flavorful for its description talking about a raging storm, it having other water moves, and it having a tail, so it was added. Since it has a tail, Iron Tail was also added. Icy Wind is completely outclassed by Ice Beam, and cold winds are flavorful. Electroweb is incredibly common on Electric types, so no reason no to carry it. Similar case for Dragon Pulse.

Dragon Breath
Heal Bell
Hydro Pump
Mud-Slap
Power Gem


No changes.

Captivate (Gen 5/6 TM)
Endure
Headbutt
Flash
Natural Gift
Secret Power
Strength
Swift


Headbutt and Swift are gen 4 only tutors, so they are on transfer.
 
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Quanyails

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I started to dig around as to whether the lack of Magnet Rise and Iron Tail (both pre-Gen. V moves) was a conscious omission by the movepool maker. I had noticed that on Deck Knight's original movepool that both moves were included and were later removed. I thank Dogfish44 for directing me to the movepool revisions thread.

CAP originally imposed a hard cap on how many "very good moves" a Pokemon could get before its current way of distributing moves based on movesets and usability. This meant that moves like Iron Tail, which may see use on a physical sweeper, would still count toward the "very good move" limit on a bulky, specially-offensive 'mon like Cyclohm. When movepool revisions went out, Cyclohm lost Iron Tail to fit that constraint. It was not a decision the movepool reviser made motivated by flavor and/or competitive reason but instead to fit the bounds of the system of the time. With that in mind, there's no reason to keep Iron Tail removed.
 
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Just a couple more notes: what is the stance on speed control? With this, I mean these moves in particular:
- Bulldoze, which is pretty much implied by Earthquake
- Electroweb, which has a somewhat wide distribution among Electric-types (considering lightning patterns in the sky during thunderstorms, I believe it would fit Cyclohm).
- (Possibly Icy Wind if it is implied by stronger Ice moves)
Now, Cyclohm is a base 80, which is not immensely slow: are these moves overly competitive, especially considering prior notes about the "filler slot"?
 
Nah, I don't think speed control moves are overly competitive options for Cyclohm. There may be some specific scenarios where Electroweb or Icy Wind affect a matchup, but giving up the raw power and perfect accuracy of Thunderbolt and Ice Beam is rarely going to be worth it. Zapdos doesn't make use of Electroweb, Krilowatt doesn't make use of Icy Wind, so I doubt Cyclohm would be much different here if it gets the moves. Even with the filler slot taken into account, just running an extra coverage move helps out with matchups way more than doubling up on STAB just to lower Speed one stage. If they fit from a flavor perspective, I say we go for it.
 

snake

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CAP Co-Leader
I couldn't be on for the 24 hour warning, but hopefully a 19 hour warning will suffice! Get those final subs in if you haven't already.
 

snake

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I'll get the poll up ASAP, on mobile now. It'll be a little bit though, just went out of town. It will be up tonight regardless :)

EDIT: Poll is up!
 
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snake

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CAP Co-Leader
Congratulations to sparktrain for winning the updated movepool poll! You can see the winning submission here.

This concludes Cyclohm's update. To sum everything up, competitively speaking, Cyclohm gained Volt Switch. Flavorwise, Cyclohm got many new moves, updated tutor moves, updated TM moves, and a Hidden Ability in Damp.

Thanks to everyone who participated in this update!
 
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