CAP Updates: Colossoil Discussion (Complete)

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snake

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Colossoil
Abilities: Rebound / Guts
Stats: 133 / 122 / 72 / 71 / 72 / 95
Welcome to the Colossoil Update thread! In this thread, we will be updating Colossoil to Generation 7 standards.

Colossoil was the eighth CAP Project in Generation 4. Below is it's concept (note that this will look a little bit simpler than today's concepts):
Name: Stop the Secondary
Description: A Pokémon that through means of ability, moves, and typing, can stop a variety of the non damaging affect of moves and moves of non damaging origin.

Justification: While the immediate threat of damaging moves is large and present, the affect of moves such as status, Trick, Leech Seed, Taunt, Stealth Rock, Spikes have arguably had a greater affect to the metagame than anything has ever had, something that this would greatly look in to.

Questions to be Answered:
~ How easily would a Pokémon with such large of a niche be able to fit into a competitive team?
~ How large of an impact would the reducation of non damaging affects and moves have on the metagame?
- What, if any, would happen to the types of teams being used?
- How would this affect the usage of these types of moves?

~ How much of an effect does typing have on the ability for ANY Pokémon to perform this duty?
Colossoil has always been a solid Pokemon since Generation 4. While its Leftovers, Life Orb, and Choice Scarf sets of Generation 4 and 5 have fallen to the newer Assault Vest and Flame Orb sets (Choice Scarf is pretty nice though!), Colossoil still remains the same Pokemon at its core: utilizing a powerful Earthquake, U-turn, Dark-type utility moves like Knock Off, Pursuit, and Sucker Punch, Taunt, and Rapid Spin. Generation 7 has thrown new challenges at it like Tapu Bulu, and it still has its problems with Skarmory and Tomohawk, but Colossoil remains a top threat in the metagame with its powerful dual STAB.

Because of these traits, Colossoil doesn't need much of a competitive update from Updates. However, it still needs a hidden ability and an updated, Generation 7 movepool. Let's get started!

First, Colossoil needs a Hidden Ability. While this ability can have competitive implications, they need to be extremely minor. Colossoil's ability should be based off its design more than its competitive image. Here are a couple of guiding questions.

1. What flavor abilities would fit on Colossoil by its design or typing?
2. Why does the ability from Question 1 hold little-to-no competitive value?


A poll will be up in 48 hours after discussion has taken place.
 
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boxofkangaroos

this is the day of the expanding man
After browsing through the list of abilities, I found a couple of cool possibilities:

Klutz would be cool and funny, since Colossoil has a has a super bulky body and tiny hands that don't look like they'd be great at holding things. Other big Pokemon like Golurk and Bewear have this Ability. And I think it goes without saying that it has no competitive merit, since it is literally a hindering ability.

Lightning Rod makes a ton of visual sense with Colossoil's huge metal drill nose, so it would be really cool from a flavor perspective. It really has no competitive effect, and I don't foresee people running Special sets just because they see it has access to Lightning Rod.
 

G-Luke

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Well due to its concept alone Defiant immediately jumps to mind, but seeing the grave competitive implications of such an ability, here are some others.

Unnerve sounds great, as Colossoil looks very unnerving to me.

Pressure is another neat option thanks to its immense size (heavier than Groudon?)

Aroma Veil while not flavourful to design, keeps up with its concept, and is outclassed by its other abilities anyways.

Lightning Rod seems like a lovely troll move, but it doesn't seem high enough, (and Lightning Rod Rhyhorn and friends is a mistake in my eyes) to actually be a lightning rod.
 

LucarioOfLegends

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1. What flavor abilities would fit on Colossoil by its design or typing?
I think either Berserk or Keen Eye would work great as flavor abilities. While I'm hesitent about Berserk because of its status as a ability only on Drampa, I think it works well with Colossoil's dark typing and its nature as a usually rash and dangerous Pokemon. Keen Eye is my second choice because of its ability to go underground, and it would need keen eyesight to be able to do that effectively. Plus, dirt can't get into its eyes.

2. Why does the ability from Question 1 hold little-to-no competitive value?
Berserk is majorly non competitive because of the fact that Colossoil is primarily physical, as shown in its nature. It can still utilize it using Earth Power and Dark Pulse, but I doubt people would be rushing to make special sets just because of a Special Attack boost. As for Keen Eye, I can remember two move off of the top of my head that lower accuracy: Mud-Slap and Muddy Water, which no us competitively. Either way, It still has very little competitive implication.
 

BP

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I am going to go with the ability Unnerve. Colossoil is big and scary looking, it can make other Pokemon lose courage and or confidence.

Unnerve
has no use competitively unless your fighting like Lum Berry Dragonite or Sitrus Belly Drum Cawmodore. Unnerve isn't really an ability that strikes anyone as Competitive.

I'm also on board with the ability Pressure because a lot of other Pokemon get them and it just looks right on Colossoil imo. Pressure also holds 0 competitive merit unless you plan on PP stalling which isn't viable at all

Sorry for not providing much input
 

G-Luke

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1. What flavor abilities would fit on Colossoil by its design or typing?
I think either Berserk or Keen Eye would work great as flavor abilities. While I'm hesitent about Berserk because of its status as a ability only on Drampa, I think it works well with Colossoil's dark typing and its nature as a usually rash and dangerous Pokemon. Keen Eye is my second choice because of its ability to go underground, and it would need keen eyesight to be able to do that effectively. Plus, dirt can't get into its eyes.

2. Why does the ability from Question 1 hold little-to-no competitive value?
Berserk
is majorly non competitive because of the fact that Colossoil is primarily physical, as shown in its nature. It can still utilize it using Earth Power and Dark Pulse, but I doubt people would be rushing to make special sets just because of a Special Attack boost. As for Keen Eye, I can remember two move off of the top of my head that lower accuracy: Mud-Slap and Muddy Water, which no us competitively. Either way, It still has very little competitive implication.
Actually, by laws of nature, things that dwell underground have poor eyesight, as why do you need sharp eyesight in darkness?
 
Sand Veil - probably one of the first abilities that come to mind when I think of a Ground mon, but I don't know if I want to play the evasion game with this ability (then agan, SV isn't really used all that much, even on Sandstorm teams, so idk)

Lighting Rod - because lol

Pressure- seems really good flavour wise and also makes sense (huge pressure underwater, huge pressure underground)
 

Quanyails

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I'm thinking of Sheer Force. Colossoil is a hulking behemoth of a sand narwhal, which fits the physical design of 'mons that get the ability. Colossoil's wheelhouse moves doesn't get the boost, which leaves moves like Crunch, the Elemental Fangs, Rock Slide, and Bulldoze (which I'm taking as given) to be boosted. Colossoil doesn't run Crunch when it prefers the effects of Knock Off, Sucker Punch, and/or Pursuit, and it doesn't commonly run any of the other moves mentioned. Even if you add in the Life Orb, the it's only a *1.3 boost in damage compared to Guts's ~*1.5. You'd be sacrificing a lot just to avoid residual damage each turn.

Drawing comparisons to the Sandile line, Anger Point could also be a good fit.

As Colossoil's sprite shows it dug into the ground, Sand Veil a la Diglett/Dugtrio would work.

I agree with the above that Lightning Rod would be a great fit, since like the Rhyhorn line it has a drill nose.
 

LucarioOfLegends

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Pressure I support mostly because of its large body. Pressure however can have some sort of competitive effect, because PP stalling can change matches at points. I am slightly hesitent about it.
Lightning Rod I do NOT support because of the fact it the whole horn ordeal was designed for Rhydon and co. when it only directed electric attacks to the user, not raise its special attack and give an immunity. It was an oversight on GF's part. Now that Lightning Rod is in its current form, no Ground type has actually gotten it as an ability, hidden or otherwise. Because of that, it would make no sense to give it this ability.
Sheer Force. No.

Another ability that came to mind when thinking about this was, hilariously, Truant. It is the pinnacle of useless abilities, and most people would never use it under any circumstance but low ladder is not most people. I can imagine it as Colossoil being a bit cocky from its battles, and can be lazy and underestimate its opponent. I think this would be a fun route to go down. And its not exclusive anymore, since Durant also got this abilty as an HA.

Edited it to fix a contradictory statement earlier.
 
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Klutz wouldn't work well if Colossoil still excels in playing basketball.

But seriously, Anger Point fits Colossoil's appearance nicely, assuming it still acts like the boisterous bully that some Dark-types focus on, such as Krookodile, Scrafty, and so on. The ability is also quite situational, as Soil would not want to try to survive a critical hit of any kind.
 

HeaLnDeaL

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252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Colossoil Fire Fang vs. 248 HP / 116+ Def Scizor-Mega: 322-380 (93.8 - 110.7%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO, guaranteed KO after SR

(compared to 252+ Atk Guts Colossoil Fire Fang vs. 248 HP / 116+ Def Scizor-Mega: 280-332 (81.6 - 96.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO, 57% KO after SR)
'nuff said. pls no, snake-kun.

I like Anger Point since Colo looks super angry.
 

G-Luke

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252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Colossoil Fire Fang vs. 248 HP / 116+ Def Scizor-Mega: 322-380 (93.8 - 110.7%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

(compared to 252+ Atk Guts Colossoil Fire Fang vs. 248 HP / 116+ Def Scizor-Mega: 280-332 (81.6 - 96.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO)

'nuff said. pls no, snake-kun.

I like Anger Point since Colo looks super angry.
While I am not supporting Sheer Force in anyway, this seems like a rather lackluster calc to base your opinions on, as SR or the tinest of chip damage literally seals the KO. At least bring more substantial calcs.

And Sheer Force is not gonna make Colossoil run fangs. In a realistic battle, it would have had chip damage to begin with.
 
I'm thinking of Sheer Force. Colossoil is a hulking behemoth of a sand narwhal, which fits the physical design of 'mons that get the ability. Colossoil's wheelhouse moves doesn't get the boost, which leaves moves like Crunch, the Elemental Fangs, Rock Slide, and Bulldoze (which I'm taking as given) to be boosted. Colossoil doesn't run Crunch when it prefers the effects of Knock Off, Sucker Punch, and/or Pursuit, and it doesn't commonly run any of the other moves mentioned. Even if you add in the Life Orb, the it's only a *1.3 boost in damage compared to Guts's ~*1.5. You'd be sacrificing a lot just to avoid residual damage each turn.
I want everyone to ponder this for a moment with me here as I explain why the hesitation towards this ability is grossly exaggerated.

Pursuit, Rapid Spin, Knock Off, Sucker Punch, U-Turn, and Earthquake do not get boosted, and these moves make up a vast majority of movesets that Colossoil runs. Most movesets are actually only these moves. The real things to look at are Crunch, Rock Slide, Fire Fang, Iron Tail, and Thunder Fang, all of which are niche or unused. Crunch is the main benefactor here, and I will cover that last. First, have a look at these calcs:

252+ Atk Guts Colossoil Fire Fang vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Cawmodore: 180-212 (74.3 - 87.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Colossoil Fire Fang vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Cawmodore: 203-239 (83.8 - 98.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Thunder Fang and Iron Tail are buffed the same way as Fire Fang, so I'm not calcing them.

252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Colossoil Rock Slide vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Cawmodore: 117-138 (48.3 - 57%) -- 91% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Guts Colossoil Stone Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Cawmodore: 137-162 (56.6 - 66.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Colossoil Crunch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Cawmodore: 187-220 (77.2 - 90.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Guts Colossoil Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Cawmodore: 199-235 (82.2 - 97.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Fire Fang being boosted ever so slightly doesn't affect any matchups except for Mega Scizor, which gets a 100% chance to OHKO instead of a 50% chance to OHKO, both after rocks. If hitting Mega Scizor was so important, mind, wouldn't people already be running Fire Fang? They don't run Fire Fang, and they won't with Sheer Force. (If it gets usage after Sheer Force is implemented, it won't be because of Sheer Force directly. It will be because people see it and want to abuse it without thinking of if it is worth it; OR they run it because hitting Mega Scizor is suddenly way more important, which is not a result of the ability.)

Rock Slide is actually significantly weaker than Guts Stone Edge. It is more reliable, but still weaker nonetheless. Nobody runs Rock coverage anyway, it doesn't hit many important targets.

Iron Tail isn't run often. The Sheer Force boost also doesn't change any matchups. For example: Tapu Bulu/Lele are KO'ed regardless of Guts or Sheer Force.

Knock Off from Guts is stronger than Sheer Force Crunch, against items with a target. Crunch is more reliable, because it hits Megas and Z-Move users harder, but removing items is such an important part of Colossoil's utility that it will not overtaken by Sheer Force Crunch any time soon.




I don't see how Sheer Force actually makes an impact on Colossoil in any meaningful way. Denying it on basis of competitive use is way too cautious. In the end, Colossoil's viability, matchups, and strength are largely unaffected by this "buff", and it would be a shame to see it denied just because on other Pokemon it's a good ability. Something else to note: Sheer Force is suddenly /a lot weaker/ if Life Orb is removed; a highly likely scenario, considering Colossoil's bulk and resistance to it. Flame Orb doesn't have the same issue, because the burn is permanent and only needs a single turn to activate.
 

HeaLnDeaL

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Life Orb Sheer Force is of comparable power to Flame Orb Guts with a few instances where its better (Fire Fang, Iron Tail, Crunch vs megas or vs anything without an item) and a few instances where its worse (first hit of Knock Off being stronger than Crunch, Colo having utility dark moves) and a whole lot where the power is comparable. Sheer Force + Life Orb, however, has no recoil (on certain move) which is a buff that does come into play. Of course, if Guts Colo is burned before its item gets knocked off, its power remains the same whereas Sheer Force colo losing its item is quite a drop in power... Guts's status immunity of course is probably the biggest selling point, but Sheer Force having no recoil isn't exactly a valueless impact either.

I don't feel safe saying that Sheer Force Colo would have, idk, less than 10% usage. It gives Colossoil more competitive options, even if those options are largely comparable to its current ones. But it's a competitive ability and it has real potential to be used on competitive teams. Do we really need to give a mon with 30%+ usage even more options? Colo isn't something we should just freely give options to.
 
For your first paragraph: It only removes recoil on boosted moves, like Fire Fang, Crunch, and Rock Slide. Most of the time, when you're using Earthquake, Knock Off, Sucker Punch, U-Turn, Pursuit, or Rapid Spin, you get full recoil. In the end, Colossoil takes more damage from Life Orb than from a burn.

I think this is just a fundamental disagreement I have with CAP's philosophy, but I feel that giving Colossoil a niche option isn't bad at all. It won't affect its viability in any real way that ingame experimentation would not have done; Fire Fang beats Scizor and Ferrothorn exactly the same in either set. Sheer Force may or may not bring awareness to these moves that otherwise would not have happened, but that is not the fault of Sheer Force, but the fault of us for not even bothering with those moves earlier.
 

G-Luke

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Bruh. Screw this Sheer Force talk cuz just really want Unnerve on the Narwhal
 

Deck Knight

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I PM'd snake but seriously, this a consistency update and Sheer Force has got to take the cake for most out of place ability discussed during this entire process so far. At least when we discussed Misty Surge on Argho it was a Major Update. SF is just dumb given it boosts Soil's most powerful Dark STAB regardless of item and several of its coverage moves.

I'd like to remind everyone that Colossoil's Concept revolved around Stopping the Secondary, not breaking face with Choice Band or Life Orb or whatever. Please discuss abilities more in that vein rather than Power++ Abilities, thanks.


For some history, the reason Soil got Guts and Rebound is that WoW Rotom-W was everywhere, ans as it has Ghost/Elec typing in Gen 4, getting Burned meant Soil could Pursuit-Trap and heavily damage or KO it with Crunch/Pursuit mindgames.
 
I would like to propose Limber. Soil seems like a rather agile Pokémon, and also has base 95 speed. Now, the speed may not seem relevant, but Toxapex and Stunfisk get Limber, and they have 35 and 32 base speed. Also, since Soil is a Ground-type and is thus immune to paralysis, Limber is redundant to run competitively.
 
An interesting HA that I haven't seen brought up yet would be Rivalry (yes I know that was an option for Pyroak but hear me out here) In looking at Colossoil sprites, I noticed that only males have the scars above the eye. This seems to point to agressive nature's between male colossoil, and therefore rivalry makes a good deal of sense for it.
 

emma

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I haven't really been involved in any updates at all but I've been starting to get back into Pokemon (and especially CAP) so I think I'll start here.

Unnerve I believe is the best option, as stated earlier in the thread. Colossoil definitely seems like a pokemon to "make (someone) lose courage or confidence" in my opinion. I don't think this would be used at all since the only pokemon to use berries commonly are Dragonite with a Lum Berry and Cawmodore with a Sitrus Berry. Dragonite's Lum Berry would only come into affect if Colossoil burns it which it can't really do. In the most recent stats, Dragonite is also outside the Top 100 Pokemon used (#103 with <1/2% use). Cawmodore however, is definitely common and dangerous, I still would not use Unnerve. Assuming Colossoil switches in the turn that Cawmodore uses Belly Drums, it will be at +6 Attack, just only at 50%.

252+ Atk Colossoil Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Cawmodore: 96-114 (39.6 - 47.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Therefore, since Unnerve both fits the flavor requirement and is not competitively viable, it is a great option for Colossoil's Hidden Ability.

Edit: Fixed up the post, realized you can't have Guts + Unnerve so Unnerve is basically completely useless.
 
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Some ideas considering similar actual Pokémon:

- Anger Point: shared with Krookodile, might be too powerful due to Colossoil's high bulk
- Lightning Rod: Colossoil has a huge horn; would still be usable in doubles; shared with Rhyperior
- Rivalry: shared with Nidoqueen/king and Haxorus
- Pressure/Unnerve: both denote a huge/menacing presence; shared with Wailord and Tyranitar/Haxorus respectively
- Reckless: Colossoil has only Double-Edge to abuse it with; shared with Rhyperior
- Sand Force/Sand Veil: generic Ground abilities; shared with Hippowdon and Garchomp respecitvely; potentially too abusable
 

BP

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I agree with GreenGogoatttt, Unnerve is the best possible we can give Colossoil. Not only does it make the most sense but it is also the most flavorful unviable ability we can give it. I pledge my full support for Unnerve and if anyone has any oppositions please say so.
 
Unnerve: Makes colossoil seem like we just tried to make a more broken version of ttar imo, but yes still the safe choose for a ability
Pressure: Yes
Sand Veil: Correct me if im wrong but isn't this still not allowed... and if not never forget Gen 5, if you don't understand my opinion on this then idek enough said
 

Deck Knight

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Thus far the only ability I've liked is Unnerve. Some others I think would work and be flavorful:

Steadfast: Colossoil is based around punishing secondary effects, and Steadfast allows it to do this if flinched. Colossoil is quite scary after a Speed boost, so think twice before you click Fake Out or Iron Head while it's in.

Immunity: Toxic Boost would probably be closer to Soil's concept, but since Toxic Boost is strictly inferior to Guts, immunity seems the better pick to punish Toxic and Toxic Spikes users.
 

snake

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Alright guys, consider this your 24 hour warning before the Hidden Ability poll. I will be adding this ability to a blacklist because they have no place on Colossoil:

Sheer Force: Yes, I see the argument that it wouldn't outclass Guts. However, I asked for abilities with little-to-no competitive impact, and Sheer Force is one of the best abilities in the game.


Here are abilities that I'm worried about and need to see more competitive justification / good reasoning (to show that they aren't broken) if it has a chance to get slated:

Anger Point: So this didn't make Pyroak's Hidden Ability slate, so I can't exactly see it making this slate either. Aside from that, Colossoil is really bulky and could tank a crit and have +6 Sucker Punch.

Berserk: I'm hesitant on this one just because it makes a bunch of special moves dent some of its checks once it gets below 50%. It also interferes with how easy we can add random special flavor moves, for what it's worth.


Keep up the discussion everyone! Looking good so far.
 
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