CaP Prevos - Rebble & Bolderdash - Stats Submission

Status
Not open for further replies.

DHR-107

Robot from the Future
is a Member of Senior Staffis a Community Contributoris a Smogon Discord Contributoris a Pokemon Researcheris a Smogon Media Contributor
Orange Islands
Hey all! Apologies for the delay. I've been feeling very unwell the last few days.

Without further ado, let's start up Stats Submissions! As we all know, Stratagem was our premier special attacking Rock Type with the speed to match in a complete reversal of what most people commonly associate with the Rock Type.

Stratagem - 90 / 60 / 65 / 120 / 70 / 130

Blazingly fast with a potent Special Attack stat made Stratagem a difficult beast to control and contain. I'd like to see similar stats across the board, so go and find Pokemon which have similar stat lines and go from there!

As with previous stats subs, I am allowing you to Final Submit from the beginning of the thread, but I will post a 24 hour warning in about 48 hours so people have time to discuss/work on their spreads. Please make sure your stats are clear and easily readable. Makes my life a bit easier when it comes to looking over the numbers and reasoning!

Our Prvos So Far:
Type:
Rock
Abilities:
Rebble
: Levitate / Solid Rock / Sniper
Bolderdash: Levitate / Technician / Sniper
 
Final Submission

(HP / Attack / Defense / Special Attack / Special Defense / Speed)

Rebble: 55 / 25 / 30 / 85 / 35 / 95 (325)
Bolderdash: 70 / 40 / 45 / 100 / 50 / 110 (415)

An extremely simple pattern with overall constant increases (15 per stat for Rebble and 20 for Bolderdash), inspired by the conceptually similar Abra, Gastly (strong and fast special attackers) and Vanillite (mineral, Vanilluxe is 535) lines.
 
Final Submission

Rebble - 50 / 30 / 35 / 70 / 40 / 80 / BST 315
[-40 / -30 / -30 / -50 / -30 / -50] [TOTAL -220]
Bolderdash - 70 / 40 / 45 / 90 / 50 / 100 / BST 405 [-20 / -20 / -20 / -30 / -20 / -30] [TOTAL -130]

I didn't use any reference for this one initially, but I decided to go with similar trends on them both compared to Stratagem. Gastly has Base 100 SpA compared to Gengar's 130, but Fletchling has Base 62 Speed compared to Talonflame's 126. Similarly, Stratagem's Special Attack really isn't that much lower than its Speed, which I let carry over to Rebble. Not only is Fletchling's Speed a possible reference for here once more, but Alakazam's Base Speed is 120 when its first form had Base 90 Speed. With its HP, Mareep and Poliwag are both mons whose final forms have Base 90 HP, but Poliwag's is 45 while Mareep's is 55. For Attack and its Defenses, Stratagem would need REALLY low values on them to justify giving Rebble corresponding stats in the 20s.

For Bolderdash, mid-evos typically are closer to the pre-evo in strength than the final evo. I went with stats inbetween Rebble and Stratagem, though leaning more towards Rebble. In addition, it isn't until the final evo where the most proficient stats REALLY start to show.
 
Final Submission

Rebble - 45/25/65/75/55/80 (345 BST)
Bolderdash - 70/40/65/100/65/95 (435 BST)

Done with the great and powerful snake_rattler !!!

Ok so let me go through each stat and say why it is like it is. 45 HP lets Rebble hit an uninvested 21 HP, letting it run Berry Juice pretty well. Its Attack was just put as low as I thought necessary, as it shouldn't be a physical attacker. Now to address the elephant in the room: its Defense. Yes, I realize I set it to the same as Stratagem's but this has a lot of purposes. First competitively: since my submissions are based off of creating a fast Calm Mind abuser, a strong Defense stat is VERY important, and reaching an even 14 at only 76 EVs invested is key to making Rebble better. At max without a Defense boosting nature it can reach 16, which also makes it excellent. Secondly, to justify it flavor-wise, let me explain why this is plausible. There are surprisingly quite a few examples of Pokemon that have the same stat as their evolution (Both Gen 4 fossils have the same Speed stats as their evos, Shroomish has Breloom's Special Defense, Espurr and Meowstic share an Attack stat, etc.). Additionally, since we already gave Rebble Solid Rock, it is clear that Rebble is deemed to be a bit more defensive than its evolution. Just to reiterate why it has Solid Rock/why I believe it should keep its evo's I think that Rebble has a more solid, sturdy, generally more defense (than Stratagem) design. Ok onto to Special Attack: 75 Special Attack is the same Special Attack stat as Oddish which for those who don't play LC or didn't play during the Vulpix-sun era makes a decently powerful sun sweeper. Just a note that I didn't go as high as Abra or Gastly as I want Rebble to be a Calm Mind sweeper rather than just another Special Attacking glass cannon (Syclar is already to close >_>). Its Special Defense is that of Snivy's, another set up sweeper commonly yielding the Eviolite, and with 156 reaches the Eviolite number of 14. It doesn't need to be any higher for a mon that boosts Special Defense. 80 Speed lets us reach a maximum of 18 Speed, outspeeding most of the unboosted meta. To relate it to something it's the same tier as Doduo and Gastly, which can both still clean up quite well with an unboosted 18 Speed. Also my man shouldn't outspeed Staryu, Abra, or Grassium Z Ponyta >_> Its BST is a bit above average in LC (just wanted to explain since it's higher than everyone else's. Bolderdash is basically where I place the middleground between Rebble and Stratagem, but I want to explain its Speed. The fastest Speed NFE mon Elektabuzz/Kadabra sits at a clean 105, so putting this at 110 or even 100 I feel would be overkill, especially when neither my Rebble nor Stratagem are really meant to be at the very top of the Speed tiers.

E: Made Bolderdash better fit the Snivy chain's model.
 
Last edited:

G-Luke

Sugar, Spice and One For All
is a Community Contributoris a CAP Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnus
Ok.

Final Submission

Rebble - 60 / 20 / 45 / 75 / 55 / 90 [BST:345]

(- 30 HP / - 40 Atk / - 20 Def / - 45 SpA / - 15 SpD / - 40 Spe [ - 190 BST])

Bolderdash - 70 / 45 / 55 / 95 / 60 / 110 [BST:435]
(-20 HP / -15 Atk / - 10 Def / - 25 SpA / - 10 SpD / - 20 Spe [ - 100 BST])

Firstly, to get this out of the way, while CAP LC did give me insight as to how to balance the stats of Rebble (and Bolderdash I guess), unlike Drew I refused to force the stats onto the Prevos to hit specific LC benchmarks and instead focused on natural and flavourful progression from Rebbke to Strategem. With that being said, I still did not recklessly drop stats with no competitive insight, as making the next Scrachet (near Primaldon levels of centralization) is far from my agenda.

So, I drew inspiration from the Alakazam and Gengar lines, as both of them had many parallels to Strategem's design. In regard to stats themselves, I noted the pattern that Steategem had in place from highest to lowest (Spe/SpA/HP/SpD/Def/Atk) and decided to stick with it.

I didn't grant Rebble with a higher Special attack for two reasons. A) If Rebble gets a higher special attack stat with half the coverage its evolved form gets it would probably be too hard to control. B) For flavour reasons. I picture Strategem as a powerful attacker that hits hard right off the bat and doesnt need set up, while Rebble, not being the sharpshooter its final form is, should at least gain a boost in order to make an impact.
I pretty much agree with Drew on its speed - it fits well and hits a resoectable speed tier in LC.
60/45/55 bulk spread is basically a watered down version of Strategen's 90/65/70 bulk.

Bolderdash's stats also follow a watered down Strategem in terms of spread. I'll write more on Dash later, but I am open to critizism

Edit: Raised Rebble and Bolderdash's speed.
 
Last edited:

snake

is a Community Leaderis a Top CAP Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
CAP Co-Leader
Ok.

Final Submission

Rebble - 60 / 30 / 45 / 75 / 55 / 80 [BST:345]

(- 30 HP / - 30 Atk / - 20 Def / - 45 SpA / - 15 SpD / - 50 Spe [ - 190 BST])

Bolderdash - 75 / 45 / 55 / 95 / 60 / 105 [BST:435]
(- 15 HP / -15 Atk / - 10 Def / - 25 SpA / - 10 SpD / - 25 Spe [ - 100 BST])

Firstly, to get this out of the way, while CAP LC did give me insight as to how to balance the stats of Rebble (and Bolderdash I guess), unlike Drew I refused to force the stats onto the Prevos to hit specific LC benchmarks and instead focused on natural and flavourful progression from Rebbke to Strategem. With that being said, I still did not recklessly drop stats with no competitive insight, as making the next Scrachet (near Primaldon levels of centralization) is far from my agenda.

So, I drew inspiration from the Alakazam and Gengar lines, as both of them had many parallels to Strategem's design. In regard to stats themselves, I noted the pattern that Steategem had in place from highest to lowest (Spe/SpA/HP/SpD/Def/Atk) and decided to stick with it.

I didn't grant Rebble with a higher Special attack for two reasons. A) If Rebble gets a higher special attack stat with half the coverage its evolved form gets it would probably be too hard to control. B) For flavour reasons. I picture Strategem as a powerful attacker that hits hard right off the bat and doesnt need set up, while Rebble, not being the sharpshooter its final form is, should at least gain a boost in order to make an impact.
I pretty much agree with Drew on its speed - it fits well and hits a resoectable speed tier in LC.
60/45/55 bulk spread is basically a watered down version of Strategen's 90/65/70 bulk.

Bolderdash's stats also follow a watered down Strategem in terms of spread. I'll write more on Dash later, but I am open to critizism
Just because the spread that Drew and I worked on doesn't increase by equal increments every time it evolves doesn't mean it they aren't natural or flavorful. They all increment some from Rebble to Bolderdash, and then gain a larger increment from Bolderdash to Stratagem. It's not like we're hyper optimizing Rebble to have 5 Atk, Abra levels of Special Attack and Diglett levels of Speed, etc. If the constant increase from evolution 1 to evolution 2 is what makes you tick, it's because you picked Alakazam and Gengar as inspiration, which aren't bad picks at all, but they're from Gen 1 and have those constant increases to stats. I don't see why our spread doesn't exhibit "natural and flavorful progression" just because our numbers do more specific things.

This isn't to say your spread is bad at all, but I don't appreciate you bashing Drew's decision to use his knowledge for Little Cup stats to find more optimal numbers while at the same time making a spread that looks flavorful.

EDIT: In fact, I don't care if you have this statement in your post:

"Firstly, to get this out of the way, while CAP LC did give me insight as to how to balance the stats of Rebble (and Bolderdash I guess), I refused to force the stats onto the Prevos to hit specific LC benchmarks and instead focused on natural and flavourful progression from Rebbke to Strategem."

But calling out Drew affects voters decisions unnecessarily because your subjective opinion of Drew's stats makes voters think his decision to look at the actual stat numbers is "wrong." It's not wrong; you just disagree. I politely ask that you remove this attack on Drew (i.e. the two words "unlike Drew") from your post, as you're completely well and able to make a spread that has a progression you yourself find "natural and flavorful" without knocking other spreads.
 
Last edited:
Rebble: 60 / 20 / 35 / 85 / 50 / 90 (340)
Bolderdash: 70 /40 / 50 / 100 / 60 / 110 (430)


This spread isn't competitive at all, it was made under the assumptions of what they would be if Stratagem was real. I tried my best to make Rebble viable without being overpowered by comparing its stats to other LC Pokemons such as Abra and Ghastly but did not intent a specific target list that Rebble would be able to beat. Bolderdash was more of a filling in the blanks, I want it to be seen as something that already had advantages ( SPA and SPE) but some disadvantages (PHYS.DEF) too that it will work on by getting evolved into a Stratagem.
:)
 
Ok.

Final Submission

Rebble - 60 / 30 / 45 / 75 / 55 / 80 [BST:345]

(- 30 HP / - 30 Atk / - 20 Def / - 45 SpA / - 15 SpD / - 50 Spe [ - 190 BST])

Bolderdash - 75 / 45 / 55 / 95 / 60 / 105 [BST:435]
(- 15 HP / -15 Atk / - 10 Def / - 25 SpA / - 10 SpD / - 25 Spe [ - 100 BST])

Firstly, to get this out of the way, while CAP LC did give me insight as to how to balance the stats of Rebble (and Bolderdash I guess), unlike Drew I refused to force the stats onto the Prevos to hit specific LC benchmarks and instead focused on natural and flavourful progression from Rebbke to Strategem. With that being said, I still did not recklessly drop stats with no competitive insight, as making the next Scrachet (near Primaldon levels of centralization) is far from my agenda.

So, I drew inspiration from the Alakazam and Gengar lines, as both of them had many parallels to Strategem's design. In regard to stats themselves, I noted the pattern that Steategem had in place from highest to lowest (Spe/SpA/HP/SpD/Def/Atk) and decided to stick with it.

I didn't grant Rebble with a higher Special attack for two reasons. A) If Rebble gets a higher special attack stat with half the coverage its evolved form gets it would probably be too hard to control. B) For flavour reasons. I picture Strategem as a powerful attacker that hits hard right off the bat and doesnt need set up, while Rebble, not being the sharpshooter its final form is, should at least gain a boost in order to make an impact.
I pretty much agree with Drew on its speed - it fits well and hits a resoectable speed tier in LC.
60/45/55 bulk spread is basically a watered down version of Strategen's 90/65/70 bulk.

Bolderdash's stats also follow a watered down Strategem in terms of spread. I'll write more on Dash later, but I am open to critizism
Ya... basically what snake said. Just because I didn't include flavor in my reasoning, doesn't mean it wasn't a large part of my process. In fact quite the contrary: I designed all of my stats based on other similar Pokemon like Snivy (rather than Abra and Gastly because I'd prefer to not make another generic fast Special Attacking glass Cannon but that's just my preference) and then adjusted them to more better fit my "competitive" needs. The only exception is Defense which is very important for my idea, so I started competitively and then justified flavor wise. Specifically calling me out for being 100% competitive simply just isn't true or fair. Also since you asked for criticism I feel your Rebble actually is pretty greatly designed for what you were going for, kind of like Gastly with more bulk and less attacking power. The only reason I have mine the way it is is because I've been trying to use Stratagem's concept "Break the Mold" to try and create a new and interesting LC mon not befitting the average LC Rock-type.
 

jas61292

used substitute
is a Community Contributoris a Top CAP Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Final Submission

Rebble:
45 HP / 45 Atk / 20 Def / 75 SpA / 35 SpD / 90 Spe (310 BST)
[Differences of -15 HP / -15 Atk / -25 Def / -25 SpA / -25 SpD / -20 Spe]

Boulderdash: 60 HP / 60 Atk / 45 Def / 100 SpA / 60 SpD / 110 Spe (435 BST)
[Differences of -30 HP / -0 Atk / -20 Def / -20 SpA / -10 SpD / -20 Spe]

As is typical for me, I start off this stat creation process by looking for existing Pokemon with similar stats with which to compare, and after checking all the Pokemon in a nearby BST range, the one that was clearly the best comparison to Stratagem was Magnezone. While their stats are quite different in distribution, the numbers themselves, if rearranged, differ only by moving 5 points from one stat to another. So, with this fantastically close example to work with, I started off by simply taking the exact stat changes between the Pokemon in Magnezone's line, and applied them to Stratagem, rearranged as appropriate.

While this served as a decent starting point, the biggest issue I had with the stats that resulted was that the middle stage ended up with too high a BST. This is because Magneton was created originally as a fully evolved Pokemon. Since I wanted to have this line look more naturally like a complete three mon family, I decided to take a look at another mon with the same BST, but that was originally 3 stages: Swampert. I took the total stat changes between the stages of the Swampert family, and adjusted the stats I got from the first step in order to land at the same BSTs.

Now, as for what the specific adjustments I made were, well, first off, after the Magnezone adjustments, Boulderdash was sitting at stats of 70/70/45/100/60/120, and I wanted to adjust its BST down to 435, meaning I had to cut off 30 points. The first change I made was to cut 10 off its Attack. In the Magnezone comparison, Stratagem's Attack maps to Magnezone's Speed. But Magneton actually is faster than its evolved form. While I didn't see any problem with the middle stage being as strong physically as Stratagem, I really didn't think there was any good reason to make it stronger. Next I chopped 10 off of its HP. Stratagem has surprisingly decent HP, but really I wanted this entire line to be obvious glass cannons, and so cutting off a bit more bulk helps cement that fact. Finally I just simply felt that 120 was a bit too fast for a middle stage mon, and so I dropped that down to the slower, but still really fast for an NFE, 110.

With the middle stage done, I next took a look at Rebble. After my initial step, Rebble was looking at stats of 55/45/20/75/35/95, but to meet my BST goal, I need to chop off 15 more points. Once again, since I really wanted to emphasize to frail nature of this line, I started off by chopping 10 points of of its HP. I also liked that change because it made it so both the first and second stage would have HP stats identical to their Attack stat. And then, with 5 more points to get rid of, I decided to take it away from Speed. While I did not think 95 was overwhelming or anything, it seems a bit weird to me for a Pokemon so fast to gain so little over the course of two evolution. No other three stage mon with a speed stat of 120 or greater in its final form has a first stage mon with a speed greater than 90, and the vast majority are 80 or lower. While I was not about to go drop it significantly, moving it down to be on par with Abra just felt right to me. And with that, I hit all the goals I was aiming for.
 

jas61292

used substitute
is a Community Contributoris a Top CAP Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Double posting just to keep my comment separate from my submission
The fastest Speed NFE mon Elektabuzz/Kadabra sits at a clean 105, so putting this at 110 or even 100 I feel would be overkill, especially when neither my Rebble nor Stratagem are really meant to be at the very top of the Speed tiers.
While I don't mind your reasoning in general, I just really wanted to point out that the fastest NFE mon is actually Sneasel at 115. I'm guessing that you looked up NFE on Showdown, which left off Sneasel as Showdown lists NFE as a tier, and Sneasel's tier is NU. Your point would still stand for middle stage Pokemon specifically, as Sneasel is just the first of a two stage line. But it being so fast as an NFE is part of the reason why I personally have no issue putting my spread at 110.
 

Deck Knight

Blast Off At The Speed Of Light! That's Right!
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Top CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Top Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
Final Submission:

Rebble: 45 / 20 / 30 / 80 / 35 / 100 (310 BST)
[Diff: -20 / -15 / -15 / -20 / -15 / -15]

Bolderdash: 65 / 35 / 45 / 95 / 50 / 115 (405 BST)
[Diff: -25 / -25 / -20 / -25 / -20 / -15]

The fundamental concept of Stratagem was to "Break the Mold" from a typing, and Rock was selected early on. Where other Rock types were slow with high attack and defense, Stratagem would have low attack and defense with high special attack and speed. My base for Rebble and Bolderdash's stats were a combination of Geodude line for some of the key numbers and Starter lines since they all have roughly 535 ending BST. I chose Geodude line's key stats because Geodude is the original mold for Rock-types, Stratagem has several statistical commonalities with Golem (3/6 actual, 4/6 within 5 pts!), and I thought keeping that symmetry would be great flavor and also match Stratagem's concept.

For high stats, Rebble line maps Geodude line's Attack to Special Attack, Defense to Speed.
For low stats, Rebble line maps Geodude line's Speed to Attack and Special Defense to Defense.
Since Stratagem has a higher BST than Golem, the remaining non-matching stats (HP and SpD) were adjusted upward to match the BST growth model of Starter Pokemon (310 - 405 - 535). Final evolution stats obviously feature the most differences (Stratagem's Attack increases significantly while Golem's would-be mapped Speed does not), but otherwise the line is basically an anti-Geodude despite both of them being literally rocks.

Obviously for CAP LC this would mean Rebble ties with Voltorb in Speed, and its 80 SpA would make it a very potent attacker, however pure rock typing has a huge number of weaknesses, especially to priority, and 45 / 30 / 35 defenses are dismal, even with Solid Rock. Rebble is an Obsidian Cannon.

(Another flavor bonus of this spread considering the Voltorb Speed tie is that Geodude-A has the same stats as Geodude, so having a rock / electric stat transplant match the fastest electric in the tier is even more amusing.)
 
Last edited:

DHR-107

Robot from the Future
is a Member of Senior Staffis a Community Contributoris a Smogon Discord Contributoris a Pokemon Researcheris a Smogon Media Contributor
Orange Islands
You guys have another 24 hours to get these tidied up and ready for submission!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top