CAP 23 CAP 23 - Part 3 - Threats Discussion

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boxofkangaroos

this is the day of the expanding man
Upon switch-in, I check CAP 23,
But then, I realize, it too can check me -
Its ghastly spirits haunt me through and through,
But then, I see that I can haunt it too...
Who am I?


That's right, CAP 23 itself. Naturally, through typing, CAP 23 should be considered a check for CAP 23, as both of its STAB moves should threaten CAP 23 and either beat it or force it out. CAP 23 can both be considered a Check and a Pokemon that CAP 23 can target and pressure. The grey area lies in the inevitable speed ties - and depending on CAP 23's stats, there may be some serious speed-creeping in EV investment taking place over time in the playtest. Regardless, CAP 23 should definitely be listed somewhere in that list of Pokemon that CAP 23 should check or Pokemon that should check CAP 23.

Also, Victor S. Court, I disagree that Weavile should be added, since it is mostly irrelevant in Gen 7 due to the popularity of Magearna, Tapu Fini, and Arghonaut. I wish Weavile could stand up for itself, but unfortunately it has fallen flat this generation so I don't think it really warrants a spot on the checks list.
 

S. Court

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Also, Victor S. Court, I disagree that Weavile should be added, since it is mostly irrelevant in Gen 7 due to the popularity of Magearna, Tapu Fini, and Arghonaut. I wish Weavile could stand up for itself, but unfortunately it has fallen flat this generation so I don't think it really warrants a spot on the checks list.
Even when I agree with your point, Weavile still has some viability as a Choice Band user. It might not be that relevant in this meta, I won't deny that, but it can act as a CAP23's check due to its typing

And now I think about that, Bisharp should be mentioned too. I know, neither Weavile nor Bisharp are common, but that doesn't mean they can't check CAP23, and they shouldn't be the main discussion point, but in theory with just considering typing advantage and the fact they can Pursuit trap it (or in Bisharp case, use Sucker Punch) make them theorical checks
 
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LucarioOfLegends

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Hi everyone! I'm making these lists purely based on the posts in this thread. This post aims to provide easy discussion points regarding targets, checks, and counters.

CAP23 should target and dismantle:
Defensive pivots/walls (e.g. doesn't use VoltTurn): Tomohawk, Toxapex, Tangrowth, Arghonaut, Pyroak, Mollux, Clefable, Celesteela, Ferrothorn, Mega Venusaur, Zapdos, Chansey

CAP23 should target and pressure:
VoltTurn pivots: Landorus-T, Magearna, Rotom-W, Krilowatt
Calm Mind Naviathan, Excadrill

CAP23 should be checked by:
Offensive Steel-types: Kitsunoh, Dragon Dance Naviathan, Mega Mawile, Mega Scizor, Bisharp
Dragon-types: Cyclohm, Dragonite, Zygarde, Hydreigon, Mega Charizard-X, Latios
Ghost-types: Revenankh, Chandelure, Mimikyu, Kitsunoh, Gengar
Ice-types: Syclant, Kyurem-B, Ninetales-A, Mamoswine
Dark-types: Ash-Greninja, Greninja, Colossoil, Mega Sableye, Mega Sharpedo, Mega Gyarados, Malaconda
Fairy-types: Tapu Lele, Kerfluffle, Mega Diancie, Mega Gardevoir, Azumarill

CAP23 should be countered by:
Skarmory, Tapu Fini

Of course, this list may look lacking, weird, or otherwise wrong, but that's why I'm posting it now. Please describe what changes need to occur with this list. During this CAP, the pokemon in the "target and dismantle" portion of the targeting section should receive more weight during future discussions of the project; whereas "target and pressure" will receive less weight.

Off the bat, I see lots of checks but only a couple of counters. Additionally, I see more "target and dismantle" than "target and pressure." If Pokemon need to be added, removed, or moved from one section to another, please describe why.

Additionally, I've wondered when Normal-types are said to rise up due to CAP23's presence. I would like to hear which specific Normal-type Pokemon that would rise and why they would.
Generally disagree with the placement of Clefable in threaten and dismantle, as its immune to our Dragon moves, doesn't really care if we go the setup route, can threaten us out with Moonblast, and doesn't really care too much about even base Anchor Shot. I propose a move to check, since Z-Anchor shot can be annoying.
 

Deck Knight

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I would add Mega Sableye and Clefable to our counter list. The first one is immune to status moves like Toxic and Will-O-Wisp and can deal a good amount of damage to us with Knock Off. Clefable almost always runs Moonblast, and has the defenses to tank our STAB, so It can easily come in and force us to switch

I also agree with Victor S. Court, I don't see how we could successfully threaten stuff like Toxapex Zapdos and Ferrothorn yet still lose to Skarmory. Besides it can only Whirlwind us, as we are outright immune to it's most common offensive move, Counter, so CAP23 will usually win 1v1.
Skarmory's most common offensive move is Brave Bird or Iron Head for more anti-Fairy variants. Skarm can't be Toxic'd like Zapdos can, CAP doesn't resist Skarm's STAB like it resists Zapdos's STAB and Coverage moves (Heat Wave, at least, HP Ice is kind of weak when it isn't 4x), and it isn't resisted unto irrelevance like Toxapex is. Skarmory's chief method for countering most things is to switch in, set up a hazard, and then Roost/Whirlwind until threats are weak enough for it or teammates to pick off. Skarmory wins through attrition, and there are few or no desirable ways to break it out of that role and have CAP remain balanced.
 

S. Court

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Skarmory's most common offensive move is Brave Bird or Iron Head for more anti-Fairy variants. Skarm can't be Toxic'd like Zapdos can, CAP doesn't resist Skarm's STAB like it resists Zapdos's STAB and Coverage moves (Heat Wave, at least, HP Ice is kind of weak when it isn't 4x), and it isn't resisted unto irrelevance like Toxapex is. Skarmory's chief method for countering most things is to switch in, set up a hazard, and then Roost/Whirlwind until threats are weak enough for it or teammates to pick off. Skarmory wins through attrition, and there are few or no desirable ways to break it out of that role and have CAP remain balanced.
I know it might not be that relevant, but do we have the data of Pokemon's most used moves? It'd be good to check Skarmory's offensive moves just to stay for sure about this part in specific.

Ignoring that, you have a good point here, and that'd solve the doubt I have about Skarmory's placement as a CAP23's counter
 
Skarmory's most common offensive move is Brave Bird or Iron Head for more anti-Fairy variants. Skarm can't be Toxic'd like Zapdos can, CAP doesn't resist Skarm's STAB like it resists Zapdos's STAB and Coverage moves (Heat Wave, at least, HP Ice is kind of weak when it isn't 4x), and it isn't resisted unto irrelevance like Toxapex is. Skarmory's chief method for countering most things is to switch in, set up a hazard, and then Roost/Whirlwind until threats are weak enough for it or teammates to pick off. Skarmory wins through attrition, and there are few or no desirable ways to break it out of that role and have CAP remain balanced.
I disagree with this, putting Skarmory as a counter would heavily cripple a lot of other machups, particularly against Tomohawk, which in this situation will most likely only lose to a Toxic + Trapping set, while stuff like Ferrothorn and Scizor become more threatening to us, because we'd be forced to face them on the physical side, and the strongest Fire move we could get against them would probably be Fire Fang, as anything stronger would threaten Skarmory too much. Also I find the idea that we need Skarmory as a counter, or else CAP23 won't be balance to be just not true, defensive Fairy-types like Tapu Fini and Clefable can still counter us, while anything faster with a strong Super-effective move should check us very well. Overall, Skarmory can certainly be a solid check, but it shouldn't always counter CAP23.
 

nyttyn

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I'm not entirely certain I agree with having Ferrothron be someone we beat, but in the same breath losing to Skarmory.

Let us assume, for a moment, CAP 23 primarily runs a physical set. This is not by any means a unreasonable assumption - STAB Spirit Shackle was a large draw of Ghost / Dragon, and it only stands to reason a physical set would be in the cards to make the most of that. Also the moment we have a viable special set is when Skarmory ceases to be even a check so that's out the window too.

Ferrothorn takes only slightly more physical damage with his usual set, and threatens to wear CAP 23 down between Leech Seed, Iron Barbs, and if it chooses to even a Rocky Helmet. Clearly, the answer is not to physically overpower Ferrothorn - any attack value sufficient to do that will, naturally, beat Skarmory as well since their damage intake is so similar.

Taunt alone would not be sufficient - we are more than likely swapping into leech seed, and that aside, Ferrothorn's knock off combined with Iron Barbs will lay low even Giratina-O levels of bulk and power in a war of attrition. But ah, we could simply run Taunt + Recover and -

now we beat both Skarmory and Ferrothorn with the same set.

What about Fighting moves?

Close Combat at the absolutely highest attack values we'd be willing to maybe consider actually loses to Ferrothorn with anything but an outrageously tiny health pool and outrageously massive defense if you dont nail it on the swap. Even if you catch him on the swap thanks to iron barbs + LO recoil + knock off we mostly tie at best which is really really really sad. Anything less simply is not winning or, in the case of flying press, maybe coming out extremely crippled if you catch ferrothorn on the swap. Also if we're slow then fighting moves reduce Skarm to a check. also chople ferro kind of laughs....

Okay, so how about Fire moves?

The issue then becomes any fire move that sufficiently threatens Ferrothron also threatens Skarmory on the swap, to the point where OHKOing Ferro with a fire move (or coming close) will mean, in turn, 2HKOing Skarmory, leaving him no longer a counter and a check at best.

Any other method of beating either will beat both.

Thus, if Skarmory is a counter, Ferrothorn must also be a counter. If Ferrothorn is someone we are to win against, Skarmory will have to be, by necessity, at best a check and not a counter. There is no version of CAP 23 that can possibly have it both ways.

Ideally we should probably have Ferrothorn and Skarmory both as Counters as they're big fat boys we shouldn't really be winning against without coming dangerously close to being able to dismantle most of CAP's walls.
 

Deck Knight

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Spirit Shackle doesn't make contact, meaning Ferrothorn doesn't wear CAP down if CAP is using the move. However as I stated Infestation may be more desirable against Ferrothorn and Celesteela.

That said since we're jumping somewhat into assumption territory, Infestation + Burn can wear down Ferrothorn, it can't wear down Skarmory because Skarm will either phaze us with Whirlwind or use Roost.

People are falling into a trap by assuming the way CAP dismantles these walls is to brute force them. While it should have a pretty good set that can apply direct offensive pressure so as to lure them, the way CAP dismantles these walls is to isolate them, cripple any damage output they might have, and win through attrition . Partial trapping lasting 4-5 moves or 7 with Grip Claw gives some level of space to do this (and there is Fire Spin I guess which Skarm just doesn't care about but Ferro is more easily overwhelmed by, especially with Firium-Z for that locked-in KO and less damage from Ferro that use Knock Off).

The reason Skarmory is different from these other mons is that Skarmory cannot be worn down slowly. Slarmory can Phaze. Skarmory doesn't care about Spirit Shackle damage and also resists Dragon. Skarmory sets already occasionally run Shed Shell because of Magnezone. Skarmory has so many tools to defeat CAP's strategy that breaking it by brute forcing it makes CAP overpowered.

In short, there is only one way to absolutely shut down Skarmory if it switches in and that is Taunt, but I firmly believe Taunt is far too powerful for CAP because it will not lure in anything bulky if the bulky mon assumes it will just be trapped and Taunted, rendering 3/4 of its moves unusable. Remember, we still have to Lure these mons in and we can't do that if even offensive sets can just keeping moving along by using Taunt.

There are also ways to specifically punish Leech Seed healing, but those require Abilities and we're already jumping a little bit too much in this thread on moves. Suffice to say, the nature of the way Ferrothorn and Celesteela do attrition and the way Skarmory does it are different. Skarmory isn't even close to being the most statistically bulky Pokemon, 65 / 140 even in physical defensive terms is eclipsed by Ferrothorm, Gliscor, and Hippowdon/Cyclohm to name just a few. The reason it wins attrition wars is that it avoids Spikes and isn't susceptible to Sandstorm or Toxic, can simply phaze out anything truly that threatening and recover instantly with Roost, and Sturdy ensures it can't simply be OHKO'd either. The only way to dismantle Skarmory's attrition toolbox requires the capacity to dismantle nearly all bulky mons in the process, whereas Ferrothorn can be addressed without going to that extreme.
 
Skarmory's most common offensive move is Brave Bird or Iron Head for more anti-Fairy variants. Skarm can't be Toxic'd like Zapdos can, CAP doesn't resist Skarm's STAB like it resists Zapdos's STAB and Coverage moves (Heat Wave, at least, HP Ice is kind of weak when it isn't 4x), and it isn't resisted unto irrelevance like Toxapex is. Skarmory's chief method for countering most things is to switch in, set up a hazard, and then Roost/Whirlwind until threats are weak enough for it or teammates to pick off. Skarmory wins through attrition, and there are few or no desirable ways to break it out of that role and have CAP remain balanced.
That's not actually true. Counter sees play on 43% of Skarmory compared to Brave Bird's 25%. Further, these are the stats for gen7cap-0, which is basically any person who rolls onto the ladder. The better the rating a player has, the less you see Brave Bird and Iron Head. By the time you get up to gen7cap-1630, the divide grows to Counter on 66% of teams to Brave Bird's 18% and Iron Head's measly 8%. This is because Steel is fundamentally terrible offensive typing in CAP, and the tier is too bulky for Brave Bird to dent anything.
 

Deck Knight

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My base laddering assumption is that by introducing a viable mon immune to Counter (that can also diminish the usage of Naviathan, the primary reason Skarm is running Counter these days) will re-orient Skarm towards Brave Bird at least. It's an assumption that obviously can't have any hard evidence to back it up, but I do predict since playests tend to centralize around the new CAP that different choices will be made in moveset build for Skarmory.
 
In the interest of making our CAP a lure for physical walls, we could give it access to a boosting move, making walls like Skarmory and Tomohawk fear a set up sweeper.

Perhaps CAP23 could ultilize a Taunt + Set up move set with a trap move to muscle past these threats. Giving CAP access to something like Dragon Dance could help it lure things like Landorus too. Then again, Tomohawk still has Prankster Haze/Roost which limits this stragegy's effectiveness somewhat.

Curse or Toxic variants with Taunt and recovery could work on a wide variety of threats too.

Ultimately, giving our mom lots of options will increase its variety enough to make it an unpredictable lure.

Never forget, our trap targets need motivation to switch in.
 
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1. Out of the bulky Pokemon mentioned in the Concept Assessment thread, which ones do we want CAP23 to threaten? Why are these the best Pokemon to target with trapping moves? Are there some we don't want CAP23 to threaten? Why or why not?
There seems to be a running trend of having Landorus-T as being a prime candidate to threaten because of it being so OP; despite Tomohawk, Colossoil, and Arghonaut all placing higher in usage and being more bulky. I'm not sure it's such a bad thing, but the main complaint I have with it choosing XYZ as being threats to specifically counter with CAP23, the risk ends up like the original Arghonaut concept of when those mon eventually lose their status - either through the presence of CAP23 in the meta, or the presence of CAP23 within the team making them untenable.

If we look at those 4 mons, and include Zapdos, Ferrothorn as well, you're looking at 6 bulky mon within the top 10 usage for 1760. These mon can either stay in and take a hit (especially with no weakness to STAB), or use something to switch out anyway. We can't even trap Landorus, Zapdos, Colossoil can all U-Turn/Volt Switch out, as can Tapu Koko, Volkraken, Krilowatt, Syclant, Crucibelle, Kitsunoh, Malaconda, and Pelipper; more than half of the top 20 used pokemon in the meta currently are straight up immune to the trapping effect by being able to switch out, while another, Chansey is immune to Anchor Shot straight up. Sweet, so we've got 12 mon which we cannot effectively trap in the top 20. If this CAP ever gets anywhere near the top 20, then there's also going to be more mon in the top 20 which can pivot out.

There is Zygarde, a lovely like bulkasaurus who can SubCoil and his SE with Dragon Tail if it wish to phase us out, and inflict shuffle damage. Any other mon except for Arghonaut (although it does have Roar despite that) can do the shuffle if it has Roar or Whirlwind.

Mega-Sableye can Knock Off for additional SE damage, inflict status, heal, and wants to use its bulk to stay in with, given that it's not hit SE.​

2. What other Pokemon should CAP23 threaten? Explain why and how it can relate back to trapping moves. Keep in mind this can be non-bulky Pokemon as well.
Kerfluffle should be at risk of being threatened; it's combination of Parting Shot and Fairy means that it's resilient to the trapping, and with it's stats, can chance a 2HKO, dependent on stats (and whether an effective 4 Attack set allows for Assault Vest to be viable), with it's LO Moonblast. It's not going to get any more threatening than that. It's pretty much always going to force a switch, which doesn't really leave Kerfluffle to be risking much unless we throw on something like Gunk Shot to specifically counter it. I think Anchor Shot should be in the moveset to let it play around it for that purpose, but you can also try and make it easier to predict by giving it an ability such as Rattled, Justified or Defiant, which would make it not want to risk Parting Shot out. I think that Kerfluffle should remain threatening, but not to the extent where "it has Parting Shot, immune to CAP23's main damage dealing STAB and it has a fast SE STAB, CAP23 should instantly switch and be unthreatening. Pursuit is obviously a no-go, but I've mentioned it a few times that Stakeout and Pursuit go together like Pork and Beans. It provides that instant thought process on what is CAP23 running. Is it going to instantly run away? Is it going to stay in, take the hit/predict the Parting Shot and do additional damage to me (as a LO user around 80% HP, can it kill with a +/- 0 Anchor Shot, or does it have a more threatening Gunk Shot.

It adds a lot more complexity to what is currently the premier threat against CAP23 by typing alone.​

3. Are there certain Pokemon that have an easy time against the trapping effect? Should these Pokemon easily check or counter CAP23? Why or why not?
Normal-types (of which there's only really Chansey, and potentially Snorlax who could switch into Anchor Shot and begin to Curse up), Phasers, mon who can put a Timer on Trapping effect while outlasting the trap and the resultant time to kill (i.e Leech Seeder, Toxic, Burns), pivot users, and mon who already recieve a benefit from switching out and little benefit from staying in.

Garchomp is one such threat; able to set up Stealth Rocks, Toxic, use the Super-effective Dragon Tail, and punish the contact making moves (although STAB Spirit Shackle is neither resisted, nor contact making) to shuffle the deck, and throw some pain down elsewhere. Zygarde is less effective at that, but SubCoil or SubDance wants to stay in anyway. I don't see a problem with Garchomp being a possible contender here. It's low usage, outclassed by Zygarde,

Colossoil Resists Ghost damage, and isn't hit SE by Dragon, and can U-Turn out into a fairy type (say if locked into Outrage) or normal (if facing an expected Spirit Shackle and it outspeeds), and deals pretty horrific damage with it's STAB Pursuit/Sucker Punch/Knock Off.
Do we want Phazing to be a thing that CAP23 is weak to? There's a lot of discussions over mon which use it. Is it intended to be a viable counter? Or do we want to have it immune to it with Suction Cups?

Do we want CAP23 to be expressly weak to Dark types and moves as ubiquitous Knock off, or does it have to be forced to wear Z Crystals, or is Sticky Hold a viable option?

These are definite anti-concept things, and need to be discussed NOW rather than in the abilities thread, because otherwise that's just wasted time.

Skarmory, Chomp and Arghonaut can phase well among others, but the ability to phase is not a result of the mon, but a result of the move itself. If this is going to be something you want to allow or stop shpuld be discussee within threats.
 
I still don't believe Skarmory should always counter us, as in CA it was decided that we should be primary not a stall mon, yet by losing to Skarmory, the best way to beat most of our targets is either by Toxic stalling (Tomohawk, Zapdos, Tangrowth and Pyroak) or using Infestation+Will-O-Wisp (Celesteela and Ferrothorn), This would mean that our main set is very likely to be heavily defensive. It's not like Skarmory has to be always scared of CAP23, its just that it doesn't make for a very good counter if that's what we want. I also disagree with the idea that Skarmory will start using Brave Bird again just to beat us, when it can just fall back to a teammate like Fini, Clefable or Mega Sableye.

Again, if we want a bulky Steel type to counter us, Celesteela is the superior choice. Sure it would be nice to be able to abuse Infestation against it, but its better bulk on both sides means it can tank even Super Effective special hits much better (Here's a calc showing how bulky Celesteela can be: 252+ SpA Necturna Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Celesteela: 142-168 (35.6 - 42.2%) -- 90.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery) and assuming Heavy Slam will hit us for 120 BP, it will have a good way to damage CAP23, especially if we are an offensive set not using Will-O-Wisp. Infestation is not the focus of this project, and I don't think we should threaten something that would otherwise be a good counter just to justify using it.
 

Deck Knight

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Celesteela is a worse choice for a Counter than even Ferrothorn considering it doesn't even have a support role as much as just being a bulky sweeper.

I can see initially having Ferrothorn as a Counter on a threats list and then discussing whether it should remain one during Ability, but being countered by Celesteela is being countered by a bulky sweeper, not a bulky support Pokemon. The only thing Celesteela has in common with Skarmory is typing, the only thing it has in common with Ferrothorn is Leech Seed.
 
Celesteela is a worse choice for a Counter than even Ferrothorn considering it doesn't even have a support role as much as just being a bulky sweeper.

I can see initially having Ferrothorn as a Counter on a threats list and then discussing whether it should remain one during Ability, but being countered by Celesteela is being countered by a bulky sweeper, not a bulky support Pokemon. The only thing Celesteela has in common with Skarmory is typing, the only thing it has in common with Ferrothorn is Leech Seed.
That's just wrong, in my experience most Celesteelas are defensive, as its able to deal with powerful threats like Tapu Lele, Non Smack Down Landorus-T, Garchomp and Mega-Pinsir. Defensive Celesteela is very similar to Ferrothorn, trading hazards and Water resistance in exchange of not being murdered by any random Hidden Power Fire.
 
I would just like to say that Skarm is fine as at least a check, due to Whirlwind and Roost specifically, even if we want TrapCAP to be able to handle Celesteela and Ferrothorn. The reason I put it this way is because it we want to keep it a physical attacker only, the combination of Spirit Shackle and Z-Flare Blitz would require a high base attack to reliably KO Physically Defensive Skarm without prior damage, assuming it doesn't Roost or Whirlwind before that could happen.

I am not convinced that using attrition to deal with Celesteela/Ferrothorn is the way to go, especially since some Ferrothorn can just Nope out of partial trapping moves with Rapid Spin (Edit: Well I was wrong about what Ferroseed/thorn could do.) Even then, don't discount the contribution that Leech Seed has in a war of attrition, as even if it is just negating the damage that the partial trapping move is dealing then it is still in their favor of the Celesteea/Ferrothorn unless you are out damaging it elsewhere.
 
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I would just like to say that Skarm is fine as at least a check, due to Whirlwind and Roost specifically, even if we want TrapCAP to be able to handle Celesteela and Ferrothorn. The reason I put it this way is because it we want to keep it a physical attacker only, the combination of Spirit Shackle and Z-Flare Blitz would require a high base attack to reliably KO Physically Defensive Skarm without prior damage, assuming it doesn't Roost or Whirlwind before that could happen.

I am not convinced that using attrition to deal with Celesteela/Ferrothorn is the way to go, especially since some Ferrothorn can just Nope out of partial trapping moves with Rapid Spin. Even then, don't discount the contribution that Leech Seed has in a war of attrition, as even if it is just negating the damage that the partial trapping move is dealing then it is still in their favor of the Celesteea/Ferrothorn unless you are out damaging it elsewhere.
I completely agree with keeping Skarmory as a check, just not a hard counter. Also Ferrothorn doesn't learn Rapid Spin.
 
3. Are there certain Pokemon that have an easy time against the trapping effect? Should these Pokemon easily check or counter CAP23? Why or why not?

Honestly the previous CAP project has an easy time against this so far. Without CAP 23 having proper speed Kerfluffle should outspeed and use parting shot or even moonblast to take down this mon. Honestly i feel it's more up to the community to decide if CAP 23 should trap Kerfluffle as Kerfluffle was a concept based on parting shot. So having the next cap mon trap Kerfluffle would make kerfluffle weaker but give a lot of speed to CAP23 making it possibly lack in another department.
 

jas61292

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Ok... so I know snake's list was just a conglomeration of what people have been saying in the thread, but the fact that some people see a list that features us beating a lot of things and having almost no counters, and their first response is to want to eliminate one of those counters... well... that is kinda frightening. We don't need fewer counters. We need more. Significantly more.

First off, yes, Skarm and Fini should absolutely be counters. But beyond that, we need more, and I think the obvious first place to look is Celesteela. It is the same type as Skarmory, is also quite bulky, and while it lacks reliable recovery, can nail us with leech seed. Beating Celesteela without beating Skarm is silly thing to aim for when we are already aiming to beat more than enough things. And along the same lines, we should also be adding Ferrothorn as a counter. Again, the idea that you can beat Celesteela and Ferrothorn but not Skarmory is very hard to believe, and while Ferrothorn specifically can always be hit with HP Fire, and is furthermore vulnerable to Fighting coverage, you really have to ask yourself why we would want that?

Honestly, it seems to me that the fact that we want to "beat bulky Pokemon" has been used as a bit of an excuse to argue for beating nearly every single bulky Pokemon that is common in the game. We simply cannot allow that on a Pokemon that, due to its dual STABs, will already have next to no switch ins that are not bulky. We need to pick and choose, and Steel types and Fairy types, who resist the STAB with the more powerful potential attacks, are the ideal candidates. I personally think we can absolutely afford to have a number of such Pokemon be counters, and I believe that trying to do otherwise is a terrible decision that can only end with us being far too powerful.

Now, as for other things on snake's list I think the biggest thing worth thinking about is what else we are checked by. In this case, I do believe that we have way more than enough checks, and that in many ways, the biggest determination of what can and cannot check us will be our speed. Now, this is not the time to decide that stat specifically, but it is something we must keep in mind, as it would be next to impossible to be, for instance, checked by Revenankh but not checked by Kitsunoh. Personally, I think we want to aim to be checked by the faster Ghost and Dragon types, but not the slower ones. What exactly that cutoff point is though, I am not as sure of.
 

S. Court

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Ok... so I know snake's list was just a conglomeration of what people have been saying in the thread, but the fact that some people see a list that features us beating a lot of things and having almost no counters, and their first response is to want to eliminate one of those counters... well... that is kinda frightening. We don't need fewer counters. We need more. Significantly more.
I'd like to make a point clear: Yeah, we need more counters, but I find contradictory the fact CAP23 wants to target passive Pokemon, but we want to put Skarmory as a counter

Yeah, it can phaze it, but that's not threaten CAP23 itself

And if we go with Deck Knight's words "Skarmory wins through attrition" because it can Roost stall it and phaze it, Toxapex should be a counter too, because it has an obscene bulk and can also Recover stall it. I find this approaching... Strange tbh.

Clefable could be considered a counter imo, by virtue of its typing it can threaten it with Moonblast, Skarmory MIGHT be a hard check but saying it could counter it is a weird approaching imo
 
I agree with having more counters, its just that Skarmory is not the counter we want, by choosing it we basically decide that CAP23 has to be a physical attacker, as any special or mixed attacker can break it just by using a decently powerful STAB and this would heavily worsen our match up against Tomohawk in particular, because we would need an absurd amount of power to even 2HKO. One could argue that we can still beat Tomo by Toxic stalling, but in Concept Assessment it was decided that we should be primarily an offensive trapper, and if offensive set fail to beat the most common bulky mon in the tier, that means that the defensive variants will be much more attractive, as it would be the best way to get rid of defensive roadblocks for your team.

Clefable, Celesteela, Tapu Fini and M-Sableye can serve as hard counters, while Ferrothorn, M-Scizor and Skarmory can serve as counters as long as we don't invest in SpA, or use Hidden Power Fire.

As far as offensive responses go, I think we should also add Krilowatt in our Check list, because even if we're faster, it can still deal a ton of damage with Ice Beam, while it has the bulk to tank a few hits if necessary.
 

nyttyn

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toxic has never been a rare sight on offensive pokemon. it's not the most common move ever on them, no, but slapping things you can't really touch otherwise with a good ol' toxic is a tried and true method of fucking over many walls since the adv days. this is even better when they can't swap out and thus will be continually worn down by toxic which is a death sentence, and offensive doesn't necessarily mean frail or unable to stay in.

meanwhile it doesn't matter if we're pidgeon holed into being a physical attacker by virtue of our checks & counters lists. the concept does not require we have the ability to go mixed or special, nor does the concept assessment - thus, we should not care at this time about if our counters list locks off the ability to go special, as that is 100% irrelevant. we should only care if the counters list compromises a spirit shackle set to the point of being of dubious worth, which having skarmory, celesteela, and ferrothorn as checks/counters does not. they are also acceptable targets to lose to, as by virtue of CAP 23's typing and access to spirit shackle and toxic, if it can beat those three it'll be able to beat the overwhelming majority of bulky pokemon in the tier. i mean, i'm all for keeping up with SM's power creep but that seems a bit much even for me.
 

snake

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Edits based on posts in the thread:

CAP23 should target and dismantle:
Defensive pivots/walls (e.g. doesn't use VoltTurn): Tomohawk, Toxapex, Tangrowth, Arghonaut, Pyroak, Mollux, Mega Venusaur, Zapdos, Chansey

CAP23 should target and pressure:
VoltTurn pivots: Landorus-T, Magearna, Rotom-W
Calm Mind Naviathan, Excadrill, Clefable

CAP23 should be checked by:
Offensive Steel-types: Kitsunoh, Dragon Dance Naviathan, Mega Mawile, Mega Scizor, Bisharp
Dragon-types: Cyclohm, Dragonite, Zygarde, Hydreigon, Mega Charizard-X, Latios
Ghost-types: Revenankh, Chandelure, Mimikyu, Kitsunoh, Gengar
Ice-types: Syclant, Kyurem-B, Ninetales-A, Mamoswine
Dark-types: Ash-Greninja, Greninja, Colossoil, Mega Sableye, Mega Sharpedo, Mega Gyarados, Malaconda
Fairy-types: Tapu Lele, Kerfluffle, Mega Diancie, Mega Gardevoir, Azumarill
Krilowatt
CAP23 itself

CAP23 should be countered by:
Skarmory, Celesteela, Tapu Fini, Ferrothorn

Again, this list is subject to change, please comment on the following discussion points:

Discussion points:
Do we need to add or remove Pokemon from the counters list? Why? Keep in mind that the four counters listed already have solid reasoning to back them.
The checks list is long. Do we need to move some of them to counters? Keep in mind that the answer can be "no."
Target and pressure seems a little short. These are the Pokemon that can nullify the trapping effect somehow OR Pokemon we don't want to explicitly lose against.
We should finalize which Pokemon we want to target and dismantle. These are the Pokemon that we should actively build to trap and remove.

Also note: it's OK for CAP23 to have counters. Don't feel like if CAP23 has counters, it'll be bad.
 
Last edited:

S. Court

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Maybe adding Tapu Koko as a check in Fairy-types?

And if we're adding Mega Charizard X as a check, which is not that relevant, I still believe we should add Weavile as a check too
 

nyttyn

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mega scizor is probably a counter here since i don't see us really exploring burn town, and mega scizor can set up in the face of truly astonishing levels of attack, roost back to a comfortable health level, and proceed to bullet punch spam your whole team dead. and really i think we're okay losing to him.

that being said im cool with our checks list being so big since we kinda threaten them with a big ol bop they wont resist or are weak to (hi ghosts!!) for the most part + we get to choose who switches in on them which makes our job a bit more comfy. so its really not a big deal since we also dont have a lot of counters and we can do a serious number on many of our checks.

also we should probably add mew to our target and dismantle list he's a big beefy boy we can destroy pretty well and someone who's a nice glue/check on many teams so taking him down would be good to do, which is made easier by the fact he's already weak to us. oh yeah and fidgit should go on the target and pressure list, he's a weak boy who we can probably take down real easily for the most part and is definitely the kind of pokemon we wanna dunk (and only avoids the target + DELETE list because he's got that u-turn that's a bit of a pain). for similar reasons pelipper should be added to that list too, since while he has u-turn he's the kind of beefy boy you'd want to target and put the hurt on since he's the lynch-pin of rain teams and all and taking him out of the picture is a nice thing to do in the rain MU since them losing drizzle's super bad.
 
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