CAP 23 CAP 23 - Part 2 - Typing Discussion

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Deck Knight

Blast Off At The Speed Of Light! That's Right!
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Welcome to CAP 23's Typing Discussion which will be led by a user who slices, dices, minces, princes, Heals, N Deals: HeaLnDeaL

To start, let's review our concept:
Name: Wait! It's a Trap Move!

Description: A Pokémon that can make effective use of semi-trapping, fully trapping, or self-trapping move(s).

Justification: Trapping is a somewhat polarized mechanic in the current SM metagame. In terms of ability-based trappers we have Dugtrio, perhaps one of the most hated (or most loved, really depends on the situation) Pokémon thanks to its ability Arena Trap. There is also the occasionally seen Magnezone that uses Magnet Pull to lure in and decimate Steel type Pokemon. All trapping effects are ignored by the Shed Shell item or simply by being a Ghost type. However, this is not the kind of trapping I want to focus on. Focusing on abilities leaves few options, and the general mechanics are the same: Lure, Trap, Destroy. Nothing much new is to be found there.

So, instead, I would like this concept to focus on trapping moves. For those unfamiliar with the term, there are a few types of trapping moves which I will make an attempt to explain here. A semi- or partially trapping move prevents the opponent from switching out for a set number of turns while also usually doing a set percent of damage. Example moves would be Whirlpool, Fire Spin, Infestation, and Magma Storm (but don't use that last one, it's legendary exclusive!). There are also what I like to call fully trapping moves, moves that prevent the opponent from switching not for a set number of turns, but instead until the Pokémon who used the move leaves the battlefield. This category includes moves such as Block as well as the brand-new Gen 7 moves of Anchor Shot and Spirit Shackle. Also are what I call self-trapping moves, which is just Ingrain to my knowledge. This move (and if any similar ones come about) lock the USER into battle. Lastly, just to make sure I cover all my bases, Fairy Lock is an interesting trapping move that prevents any Pokémon, friend or foe, from leaving the battlefield on the following turn only (Barring the usual exceptions).

This concept fits in the Actualization and Archetype categories. Trapping moves are exceedingly rare in their usage. The most effective in OU currently is Magma Storm Heatran, but this is by far not its only nor its best set. Expanding our gaze slightly we may find the strange Stall-Trap or Perish-Trap strategies in use in varying parts of the ladder. Even further? Ok then, in Ubers you can find an excellent example of self-trapping in Ingrain Xerneas, which helps prevent the opponent from forcing Xerneas out after it has set up its boosts. In addition, one could look at SD Trapper Decidueye that sets up with Swords Dance after trapping a helpless opponent via Spirit Shackle. Dhelmise can also use Anchor Shot, though I'm not terribly sure as to how that set works... Regardless, that makes about four solid examples of trapping moves across four different tiers, and none of the sets are by any means the only or most effective sets those Pokémon can run (Except maybe Dhelmise. Is there an RU player here who can help me out with that thing?). Overall, the relative rarity of these moves in competitive play when contrasted with the seemingly powerful effect of locking in the opponent begs a variety of questions about the nature and use of said trapping moves. To best explore these moves, designing a Pokémon to use and abuse them makes the most sense for understanding how to properly use them (whatever that would mean).

Questions To Be Answered:
(Base) Is there a 'best' way to utilize trapping moves? If so, what playstyle does it most align with?
(Base) Is there a 'best' type of trapping move overall, or are they each truly viable in their own ways?
(Base) What is the value in trapping the opposing Pokémon? Are certain traps better than others? Why?
(Base) What synergies work well with trapping moves? Why do they have such a great synergy, and how can that be expanded or dealt with in the process of teambuilding?
(Comparison) How do trapping moves compare against trapping abilities? Are there any inherent benefits and disadvantages and if so, what are they?
(Metagame) Are there any particular archetype matchups in which a trapping-move Pokémon would have an advantage? A disadvantage? Why is that?
(Metagame) What has contributed to the lack of presence of trapping moves in our metagame? Is it a plethora of other options, a lack of viable abusers, or something else?
(Metagame) How does the trapping mechanic interact with the value of switching out?
The second post will be reserved for HeaLnDeaL who will expand on Topic Leader snake_rattler's closing post in the Concept Assessment thread as it relates to typing, re-posted below:

snake_rattler said:
I think it's time to wrap things up! I believe this is the general direction we want to go with CAP23 (keep in mind that nothing but the concept is really set in stone). Question 10 got some interesting responses, and I think I've found a nice way to sum it up in Point 4.

How CAP23 will generally play out:
1. This CAP will not use stalling tactics as its primary strategy - it will not be a wall.
2. Anchor Shot, Spirit Shackle, and binding moves are the trapping moves we want to use.
3. Fairy Lock, although a very niche move, will be discussed in further detail in Moveset Discussion.
4. Opponents should expect a trapping move set but fear a) the other moves CAP23 will run and b) non-trapping sets. (i.e. a) "Now that I've been trapped, is A, B, or etc. going to happen?" and b) "I've been playing around CAP23 like it's been running a trap move, but it's really not!")
5. By nature of trapping moves, CAP23 will likely trap bulkier Pokemon.

In addition, what we have learned two major facts:
1. Trapping moves' biggest advantages over trapping abilities are being able to run an ability and being able to cause 50/50s between trapping or other moves.
2. Trapping moves guarantee safe plays if used correctly, particularly with one-time-use Z-moves.

Now we move will move onto the Typing Discussion! Again, thanks to everyone who participated over the last week in this discussion. See you all in the next thread!

- - - - -

CAP 23 So Far:


Concept:
Name: Wait! It's a Trap Move!

Description: A Pokémon that can make effective use of semi-trapping, fully trapping, or self-trapping move(s).

Justification: Trapping is a somewhat polarized mechanic in the current SM metagame. In terms of ability-based trappers we have Dugtrio, perhaps one of the most hated (or most loved, really depends on the situation) Pokémon thanks to its ability Arena Trap. There is also the occasionally seen Magnezone that uses Magnet Pull to lure in and decimate Steel type Pokemon. All trapping effects are ignored by the Shed Shell item or simply by being a Ghost type. However, this is not the kind of trapping I want to focus on. Focusing on abilities leaves few options, and the general mechanics are the same: Lure, Trap, Destroy. Nothing much new is to be found there.

So, instead, I would like this concept to focus on trapping moves. For those unfamiliar with the term, there are a few types of trapping moves which I will make an attempt to explain here. A semi- or partially trapping move prevents the opponent from switching out for a set number of turns while also usually doing a set percent of damage. Example moves would be Whirlpool, Fire Spin, Infestation, and Magma Storm (but don't use that last one, it's legendary exclusive!). There are also what I like to call fully trapping moves, moves that prevent the opponent from switching not for a set number of turns, but instead until the Pokémon who used the move leaves the battlefield. This category includes moves such as Block as well as the brand-new Gen 7 moves of Anchor Shot and Spirit Shackle. Also are what I call self-trapping moves, which is just Ingrain to my knowledge. This move (and if any similar ones come about) lock the USER into battle. Lastly, just to make sure I cover all my bases, Fairy Lock is an interesting trapping move that prevents any Pokémon, friend or foe, from leaving the battlefield on the following turn only (Barring the usual exceptions).

This concept fits in the Actualization and Archetype categories. Trapping moves are exceedingly rare in their usage. The most effective in OU currently is Magma Storm Heatran, but this is by far not its only nor its best set. Expanding our gaze slightly we may find the strange Stall-Trap or Perish-Trap strategies in use in varying parts of the ladder. Even further? Ok then, in Ubers you can find an excellent example of self-trapping in Ingrain Xerneas, which helps prevent the opponent from forcing Xerneas out after it has set up its boosts. In addition, one could look at SD Trapper Decidueye that sets up with Swords Dance after trapping a helpless opponent via Spirit Shackle. Dhelmise can also use Anchor Shot, though I'm not terribly sure as to how that set works... Regardless, that makes about four solid examples of trapping moves across four different tiers, and none of the sets are by any means the only or most effective sets those Pokémon can run (Except maybe Dhelmise. Is there an RU player here who can help me out with that thing?). Overall, the relative rarity of these moves in competitive play when contrasted with the seemingly powerful effect of locking in the opponent begs a variety of questions about the nature and use of said trapping moves. To best explore these moves, designing a Pokémon to use and abuse them makes the most sense for understanding how to properly use them (whatever that would mean).

Questions To Be Answered:
(Base) Is there a 'best' way to utilize trapping moves? If so, what playstyle does it most align with?
(Base) Is there a 'best' type of trapping move overall, or are they each truly viable in their own ways?
(Base) What is the value in trapping the opposing Pokémon? Are certain traps better than others? Why?
(Base) What synergies work well with trapping moves? Why do they have such a great synergy, and how can that be expanded or dealt with in the process of teambuilding?
(Comparison) How do trapping moves compare against trapping abilities? Are there any inherent benefits and disadvantages and if so, what are they?
(Metagame) Are there any particular archetype matchups in which a trapping-move Pokémon would have an advantage? A disadvantage? Why is that?
(Metagame) What has contributed to the lack of presence of trapping moves in our metagame? Is it a plethora of other options, a lack of viable abusers, or something else?
(Metagame) How does the trapping mechanic interact with the value of switching out?[/SIZE]
Topic Leader: snake_rattler
Typing Leader: HeaLnDeaL
Ability Leader: LucarioOfLegends
Stats Leader: reachzero
Movepool Leader: cbrevan
 

HeaLnDeaL

Let's Keep Fighting
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Deck Knight already posted this above but I'll re-post snake's concluding post in CA just to be sure that you guys all read it before discussing here.

snake_rattler said:
I think it's time to wrap things up! I believe this is the general direction we want to go with CAP23 (keep in mind that nothing but the concept is really set in stone). Question 10 got some interesting responses, and I think I've found a nice way to sum it up in Point 4.

How CAP23 will generally play out:
1. This CAP will not use stalling tactics as its primary strategy - it will not be a wall.
2. Anchor Shot, Spirit Shackle, and binding moves are the trapping moves we want to use.
3. Fairy Lock, although a very niche move, will be discussed in further detail in Moveset Discussion.
4. Opponents should expect a trapping move set but fear a) the other moves CAP23 will run and b) non-trapping sets. (i.e. a) "Now that I've been trapped, is A, B, or etc. going to happen?" and b) "I've been playing around CAP23 like it's been running a trap move, but it's really not!")
5. By nature of trapping moves, CAP23 will likely trap bulkier Pokemon.

In addition, what we have learned two major facts:
1. Trapping moves' biggest advantages over trapping abilities are being able to run an ability and being able to cause 50/50s between trapping or other moves.
2. Trapping moves guarantee safe plays if used correctly, particularly with one-time-use Z-moves.
---

As many of you know, this isn't my first rodeo as a member of the TLT. However, in the past I specifically avoided being the Typing Leader because I have felt as a stage it was the point where so many unknowns were up in the air that it would be hard to discuss concrete material relating to a concept. And here we are with a move-based concept and perhaps we're in a similar situation. There's so, so many unknowns going on right now. snake's CA conclusion gives us direction, but for the most part we just have a concept and no actual "parts" of a recognizable mon. But here we are, trying to figure out that first big part with typing.

With some concepts like Crucibelle and Mollux where typing was king, trying to get a pro-concept typing seemed like it was a very natural discussion. In concepts like Volkraken, having a typing to compliment the typing of partners was invaluable. Even a concept like Malaconda's gave concrete starting points for typing discussion because of the needs to disrupt rain set in place from the CA. But then a bunch of other concepts, like Cawmodore and Kerfluffle, the typing wasn't quite as related to the concept. We have Water/Fairy, Steel/Flying, Fairy, Normal, and Fire type Belly Drummers across a variety of metagames, showing that the move's effectiveness isn't terribly tied to its typing. And with Trapping Moves and their effects, perhaps we're in a similar boat; I'm not entirely sure yet. The concept and its CA don't come even close for us to say that certain typings are needed for trapping to work. Our concept is move effect focused, not typing focused, which makes this stage arguably more abstract than some others.

But this is not to say that typing doesn't matter. There might be a variety of typings that don't harm the concept of trapping, but this does not mean we can ignore how trapping might interact with typing. The interactions might be varied. There might be some typings that work well with one aspect of trapping but not another. But discussing and exploring these things is necessary towards moving forward.

Before any specific typing is proposed, I want to open discussion with a few questions of my own. This means submitting or directly saying in any way what typing you want CAP23 to have is banned from discussion at this time.

1) What qualities in a typing compliment the trapping effect? Note that I am referring to the "status" of being trapped and trapping mechanics themselves. I am not asking about powering up individual trapping moves. Feel free to discuss the trapping effect in general and you may use existing Pokemon with trapping moves / abilities if you need to illustrate a point about the overall trapping effect. Do some existing trappers trap well because of their typing and which qualities of their typing are important?

2) Do some trappers still seem to function well despite having qualities in their typing that don't fully help their goal? If so, what qualities does the mon have that allow it to overcome their typing? And even if the typing doesn't help with the trapping mechanic, does it still help with providing pressure to help with the "trapping game" of trying to trap something of value? (I originally had this as part of Question 1 but I feel it is worth being separated).

3) Since we lack the ability to "revenge trap" (coming in on a mon after one of yours was KOed, or even double switching) an opponent the way that trapping abilities do, in what ways does this alter our typing's interaction with trapping? (Again, originally part of Question 1 but I split it up)

4) What typings would be awful for a Pokemon using a trapping move? This is essentially a reverse-submission. Which typings you think are very bad for this concept and then try to explain and figure out the qualities that those typings have that hurt the concept.
 

nyttyn

From Now On, We'll...
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Realistically speaking, move trappers behave differently from ability trappers in that it's not enough for them to just swap in - they have to actually land the move first, and then deal with whatever they wound up hitting. Thus, typings which are defensively weak won't really work out well, as suicide trapping isn't really a option with trap attacks, thus you need to be able to survive and come in multiple times - something that resistances help with and weaknesses actively hinder. While defensive stats can make up for a lack of resistances, it's really hard to accommodate for weaknesses with stats alone since...well, taking 2x damage or more from a move is a huge deal! This also means that stealth rock weakness has a considerable impact, as a weakness to it can seriously undermine your durability if you're a pokemon who wants to keep swapping in and out.

Thus, I'd wager the awful typings in this case would be...

Ice It's a completely ass defensive type, as it's not only stealth rock weak, but has only one resistance (itself) and is weak to Fire, Rock, and Fighting, all of which are extremely ubiquitous attacking types. It's also weak to steel i guess but lol offensive steel. It has practical applications offensively, but seeing as how we can't suicide trap, the shortcomings caused by its lack of resistances and super awful weaknesses is way too much.

Fire Stealth rock weak and a weakness to the #1 pivot in the metagame (landoggie) isn't an ideal combo for something that wants to keep switching in. Nice type offensively, at least, and it has a few nice resists - though a weakness to the ever ubiquitous bulky waters isn't exactly ideal, and ground weakness in general isn't super fun in the CAP meta.

Flying Stealth rock weak. Otherwise not too bad, but SR weakness is a big deal on CAP 23. It at least has the redeeming factors of a nice resistance to a common attacking type and offensively dunking Tomohawk, whose very existence limits our ability to explore set-up space, but again, I believe SR weakness is too big a drawback when other types can provide those benefits without being SR weak.

Bug The last of the Stealth Rock weak types, and has no real redeeming factors. A million and one things resist it, it has some okay resistances but nothing to write home about, and offensively it doesn't really nail anything worth writing home about (and in fact is resisted by ghosts, the one type actively immune to trapping!).
 
1) What qualities in a typing compliment the trapping effect? Note that I am referring to the "status" of being trapped and trapping mechanics themselves. I am not asking about powering up individual trapping moves. Feel free to discuss the trapping effect in general and you may use existing Pokemon with trapping moves / abilities if you need to illustrate a point about the overall trapping effect. Do some existing trappers trap well because of their typing and which qualities of their typing are important?

Firstly, a fairly defensive typing is more beneficial to a trapper than average, because you need to use a turn to trap and are then stuck with a pokemon that you have trapped while you perform the action you wanted to trap it for. This means that you end up vulnerable to attack, especially by a common coverage move. To prevent yourself from being taken out before you use the effect of your trap, you need to be able to withstand common attacks, at least for a short while.

Secondly, a trapper is going to attract VoltTurn, so immunity and/or resistance to one or both of those is beneficial. Being massively punished when a pokemon you tried to trap escapes adds insult to injury.

Thirdly, a typing-based immunity to certain moves that a trapped pokemon is likely to try using is also helpful. This includes immunities to Volt-Switch, Prankster boosted moves and certain status moves.

Fourthly, a typing that scares away ghosts is helpful, as they will otherwise be ale to reduce the work that a trapper can do.



4) What typings would be awful for a Pokemon using a trapping move? This is essentially a reverse-submission. Which typings you think are very bad for this concept and then try to explain and figure out the qualities that those typings have that hurt the concept.



Okay, firstly: Water/Psychic.

This is highly threatened by both Volt Switch and U-Turn and is scared of Ghosts as well.

Next: Flying/Psychic

The only improvement is its chances against U-Turn

Water/Grass

This is better against Volt-Switch and ghosts, while gaining immunity to powders, but still struggles against ghosts. Also, Grass types have a lot of weaknesses in general.

Water/Dark

This is better against Ghosts and allows STAB Knock-Off and Pursuit while being immune to Pranster, but is otherwise still poor.

Pure Psychic

Better against Volt-Switch, but still poor.

Pure Water

Water is normally a decent defensive typing, but still struggles against Volt-Switch

EDIT: I agree with the above.

Oh!

I Forgot to add the doubly weak to U-Turn/Volt Switch

At the top of that list is Psychic/Dark

Doesn't even mitigate damage from the move it isn't weak to.

Then Psychic/Grass

Adds Grass's poor defenses.

Water/Flying

The only added immunity is Ground moves

And finally Grass/Dark
 
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This isn't so much an answer to any question in paticular, but there are some types that we should be keeping in mind when choosing a typing:

  • Bug
  • Electric
  • Dark
  • Rock
  • Fairy
  • Psychic
  • Ghost
In order to successfully choose a typing, we should keep those in mind. CAP23 imo should resist or be immune to at least two of the three bolded types and be weak to one of the italicized types. Bug and Electric are because of U-Turn and Volt Switch, which are common answers to trapping, moves or otherwise. Dark is because of Pursuit, which prevents you from switching out and supporting your team. The italicized types are because Anchor Shot and Spirit Shackle take out Rock and Fairy types and Psychic and Ghost types respectively. This allows us to use the trapping moves as a form of coverage. With other options as coverage, it might invoke the fear of not running a trapping move mentioned in the concept assessment thread.
 
1) What qualities in a typing compliment the trapping effect? Note that I am referring to the "status" of being trapped and trapping mechanics themselves. I am not asking about powering up individual trapping moves. Feel free to discuss the trapping effect in general and you may use existing Pokemon with trapping moves / abilities if you need to illustrate a point about the overall trapping effect. Do some existing trappers trap well because of their typing and which qualities of their typing are important?

I do not feel like any of the individual typings really compliment the trapping effect. The two that seem to come fairly close are Ghost, which is unable to be trapped itself, and Dark, which inherently checks Ghosts-types. I feel like it is the typing being meta relevant that makes trappers better, since being able to easily take attacks from top threats and being able to KO back is what helps a trapper stay/become relevant. Heatran, for instance, has several good reiststances and STAB attacks verses relevant typings such as Fairy, Grass, and Steel. It is then able to use these traits to force switches and either trap or click other moves, depending on set and what would likely work best.
 
1) What qualities in a typing compliment the trapping effect? Note that I am referring to the "status" of being trapped and trapping mechanics themselves. I am not asking about powering up individual trapping moves. Feel free to discuss the trapping effect in general and you may use existing Pokemon with trapping moves / abilities if you need to illustrate a point about the overall trapping effect. Do some existing trappers trap well because of their typing and which qualities of their typing are important?

Immunity to the poison effect would be very strong for a trapper, because that way the pokemon it traps cannot in turn wear it down. Immunity to Electric would also be very helpful, to prevent the trapped pokemon from switching out via Volt Switch. Strong Defensive typing seems like a good starting point, to make sure that there are some things it can traps that don't particularly threaten it.

2) Do some trappers still seem to function well despite having qualities in their typing that don't fully help their goal? If so, what qualities does the mon have that allow it to overcome their typing? And even if the typing doesn't help with the trapping mechanic, does it still help with providing pressure to help with the "trapping game" of trying to trap something of value? (I originally had this as part of Question 1 but I feel it is worth being separated).

Heatran, the premier trapper has a Steel type, to make it immune to Toxic, which significantly lowers the amount of things that can effectively wear it down, as well as just pretty solid overall defensive typing, which helps it to trap many pokemon.

3) Since we lack the ability to "revenge trap" (coming in on a mon after one of yours was KOed, or even double switching) an opponent the way that trapping abilities do, in what ways does this alter our typing's interaction with trapping? (Again, originally part of Question 1 but I split it up)

A somewhat versatile typing is necessary, it needs to be able to handle a variety of pokemon if it traps them, since it can't actually choose exactly what it traps.

4) What typings would be awful for a Pokemon using a trapping move? This is essentially a reverse-submission. Which typings you think are very bad for this concept and then try to explain and figure out the qualities that those typings have that hurt the concept.

As nyttyn pointed out higher up, a Stealth Rocks weakness is unfortunate, however I'm not sure i agree that Fire or Flying would be horrible types. Flying boasts excellent offensive coverage, for the purpose of sweeping after trapping and potentially setting up, and Fire has a nice immunity to burns if we choose to use a physically offensive pokemon.

(Edited to bold the questions)
 

LucarioOfLegends

Master Procraster
is a CAP Contributor
1)What qualities in a typing compliment the trapping effect? Note that I am referring to the "status" of being trapped and trapping mechanics themselves. I am not asking about powering up individual trapping moves. Feel free to discuss the trapping effect in general and you may use existing Pokemon with trapping moves / abilities if you need to illustrate a point about the overall trapping effect. Do some existing trappers trap well because of their typing and which qualities of their typing are important?

A good defensive typing is incredibly good to have for this cap to work effectively at its job. A large number of resistences while only carrying a few weaknesses lets the CAP switch into a large number of hits from a large number of different mons through the course of the battle, and allows it to trap a staggering number of them. Not being weak to VoltTurn is also quite essential for this mon, as they are easily our most problematic mons to face. A resistance/immunity to both isn't necessarily required, but the goal is not to be weak to it, and having a resistence or immunity to at least one of them is very much good to have. A stealth rocks weakness can seriously hurt the mon's longevity, but I don't actually think it should be a total deal breaker if the typing has notable benefits.

2)Do some trappers still seem to function well despite having qualities in their typing that don't fully help their goal? If so, what qualities does the mon have that allow it to overcome their typing? And even if the typing doesn't help with the trapping mechanic, does it still help with providing pressure to help with the "trapping game" of trying to trap something of value? (I originally had this as part of Question 1 but I feel it is worth being separated).

Both Decidueye and Heatran have notable defensive shortcomings that theorectically should stop them cold, but don't. Decidueye has more weaknesses than resistances, and some weaknesses to very common types such as Dark really hurt its chances. Heatran has a ton of resistences sure, but its has a 4x weakness to Ground in this metagame with strong grounds like Zygarde, Dugtrio, and Lando-T, as well as a weakness to common Water and Fighting types. Where they make it up, interesting enough, is their offensive capabilities. Decidueye has access to Swords Dance, as well as one of the strongest Ghost-type Z-moves in Sinister Arrow Raid. Heatran has a great offensive coverage movepool and two possible Z-moves to abuse it. I think this is something that shouldn't be ignored, as we plan to create an offensively minded trapper that traps bulkier mons.

3) Since we lack the ability to "revenge trap" (coming in on a mon after one of yours was KOed, or even double switching) an opponent the way that trapping abilities do, in what ways does this alter our typing's interaction with trapping? (Again, originally part of Question 1 but I split it up)

Because we can't always guarantee that we will trap the correct mon like trapping abilities can through revenge trapping, our mon has to be able to fight a larger number of mons effectively, meaning a good defensive type is still required. Trapping a check by accident also requires sufficient switching, so pursuit trapping is a very large enemy to our endeavors.

4)What typings would be awful for a Pokemon using a trapping move? This is essentially a reverse-submission. Which typings you think are very bad for this concept and then try to explain and figure out the qualities that those typings have that hurt the concept.

I actually disagree with nyttyn's statement about Flying types, as the Rocks weakness is counteracted by resistences to fairly common types such as Fighting and Grass while also being fantastic offensively. I think that a good mix of both offense and defense is incredibly important for this concept, so I based my "not good types" list on this idea.

Grass: One of the worst possible types for this concept. Even if we fix the U-turn weakness by adding another type, it still could leave a large number of problematic weaknesses. It also isn't that amazing against the bulky mons we want to trap for this specific concept, and a losing matchup against Tomohawk is a serious problem.

Ice: Great offensively, but its lacks of resistances without a secondary type and a boatload of weaknesses makes it incredibly challenging to make defensive, even with a secondary type. A stealth Rock weakness does no favors for it either, as it has severely less longevity anyways without it.

Psychic: A bit better than Ice, but a lack of anything really notable makes this not a great choice to pick. Its pretty decent offensively and has a small pool of weaknesses and resistences, but other types such as Fairy can capitalize on these traits better than Psychic can. A weakness to U-turn and Pursuit trapping also severely hurts its trapping ability, as pivots could have a serious field day.

Water: While certainly decent defensively, it really doesn't do much offensively, since most bulk mons are actually resistant to or can even beat Water. A Volt Switch weakness also greatly hurts without a seriously strong secondary typing, but will be left weak to mons like Tangrowth and Pyroak anyways, who we should actually be seriously targeting.

Bug: Honestly, this type really just doesn't do anything really notable. Its resisted by a lot of types offensively, and I imagine that at signficant number of our targets are resistant to Bug. A Stealth Rock weakness does no favors either. It has some interesting resistences, but most other types can fufill these resistences much better than this type can in most cases.
 
1) What qualities in a typing compliment the trapping effect? Note that I am referring to the "status" of being trapped and trapping mechanics themselves. I am not asking about powering up individual trapping moves. Feel free to discuss the trapping effect in general and you may use existing Pokemon with trapping moves / abilities if you need to illustrate a point about the overall trapping effect. Do some existing trappers trap well because of their typing and which qualities of their typing are important?
Being able to threaten or not be threatened by a lot helps in trapping. Being able to threaten helps kill what was trapped, and force switches as a trapping move is used that could be exploited by then switching out into something to threaten what is trapped. Since we are using a trapping move, we have to come in on something and take a hit to use a trapping move, so not being threatened by a lot is helpful and it is also useful to have a fair amount of resistances to increase durability. As rmch99 said, I think being immune to Toxic is very valuable since we want to threaten bulkier mons that may carry it. CAP 23 could be stalled out with Toxic damage unless it can significantly damage these threats.

3) Since we lack the ability to "revenge trap" (coming in on a mon after one of yours was KOed, or even double switching) an opponent the way that trapping abilities do, in what ways does this alter our typing's interaction with trapping?
CAP 23 would need to take a hit instead of something like Dugtrio who can start inflicting damage right away. So the typing should be able to take on attacks relatively well since it will most likely need to take a hit on the turn it uses a trapping move.

4) What typings would be awful for a Pokemon using a trapping move? This is essentially a reverse-submission. Which typings you think are very bad for this concept and then try to explain and figure out the qualities that those typings have that hurt the concept.
From nyttyn, we value durabilty so stealth rock weakness hurts that. I also agree with rmch99 because Flying and Fire have factors that make it useful, so I would say that stealth rock weakness plus bad defensive options is something we don't want, therefore I say no to Ice and Bug.
On the subject of bad defensive options, despite a couple of useful resistances, I think Rock should be avoided due to having 5 weaknesses.
From Reviloja753, having an opponent switch out of being trapped by using Volt Switch/U-Turn should not be encouraged by a Bug or Electric weakness, which means we should steer away from Water, Flying, Dark, Psychic, and Grass.
Also from Reviloja753, being Pursuit weak means that a Pursuit user can easily switch in and threaten, therefore being weak to Dark is creating a significant weakness. So I suggest we avoid Psychic and Ghost.
 

jas61292

used substitute
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First off, with regard to the comparison points in a number of the questions, there is really only one relevant trapper for us to be looking at here: Heatran. The way Dugtrio or Magnezone's typing influence what they do is immaterial, because their trapping mechanic is so different from trapping moves that it is not even really comparable. They do not have to deal with switch ins or forcing things out, so in many ways it doesn't matter if their type complements their ability or not, beyond whether they have the STAB moves to make their job worthwhile. And with that said, with regard to the third question, while the way we interact with our typing will be very different than ability based trappers, that entire difference is not really even worth spending time on, since our function is not really the same except in the way that we group things in our head. We have few, if any of the same top priorities, and so what they want from a typing will not effect what we want.

1) What qualities in a typing compliment the trapping effect? Do some existing trappers trap well because of their typing and which qualities of their typing are important?


So with that said, going back to the first part of the question, I think there are two main things you want to look for in a typing with regard to complementing the trapping effect of trapping moves. First, you absolutely do not want to be weak to U-Turn or Volt Switch, and while resisting those moves would be preferable, the bigger overall concern would not being weak to the Pokemon that use these moves. Though this latter part is as much about threatening them offensively as taking their move defensively. Pivoting moves like these can straight up ignore trapping effects. A Pokemon whose typing struggles with either of those moves will invite in Pokemon that make a mockery of its role. But even if it resists the moves themselves, if a number of the Pokemon that run them frequently can switch in and beat the trapper with other moves, you lose a lot of the potency in your trapping, because not only are you forced out, but they can also choose to use the pivot move anyways, giving them the switch advantage, rather than you.

Secondly, I think we would want t a typing with strong offensive coverage. We have to make sure that we can do a good job threatening the things we trap, and if we want to avoid making any assumptions about the specific trapping moves we use, we must think as if we will only get three moveslots, making the coverage of the STABs that much more important.

Now, as far as the second question and Heatran, I think it does fairly well in this respect. It sports a solid x4 Bug resist, and relatively few U-Turn users feel comfortable hard switching in on it. As far as its offensive coverage, it is not the best, but it is certainly not bad, especially when coupled with its very high SpA. With its trapping move being far more potent than the ones we are looking at, I think the overall coverage it gets is a bit less important than it will be for us, as even if it doesn't do much after trapping, it still just got to land a powerful hit.

2) Do some trappers still seem to function well despite having qualities in their typing that don't fully help their goal? If so, what qualities does the mon have that allow it to overcome their typing? And even if the typing doesn't help with the trapping mechanic, does it still help with providing pressure to help with the "trapping game" of trying to trap something of value? (I originally had this as part of Question 1 but I feel it is worth being separated).

Well, as I said above, Heatran is really just about the only relevant move base trapper, and its typing, while not perfect for the role, is certainly more than adequate for it. That said, being an overall solid defensive typing is not directly related to the trapping mechanic, but supports its trapping game by giving it more opportunities to come in and trap. Until checks and counters are removed, you are most likely to be trapping a check or counter, so the big advantage of the trap is the blocking of double switches. As such, it is very possible a trapper mon will need to switch in and out a number of times, and so a generally strong defensive typing like what Heatran possesses is a boon.

4) What typings would be awful for a Pokemon using a trapping move? This is essentially a reverse-submission. Which typings you think are very bad for this concept and then try to explain and figure out the qualities that those typings have that hurt the concept.[/quote]

As I already mentioned, anything with a weakness to U-Turn or Volt Switch is generally a bad idea. But again, more importantly, we do not want to be to be letting in the Pokemon that use these moves. For example, Poison type resists U-Turn, but unless smartly paired, they would let it, and possibly be scared out by common U-Turn users such as Landorus-T, Colossoil, Kitsunoh, Scizor and others, which is not idea. Now, since this ultimately has more to do with type combos than types as a whole, I don't think I would explicitly rule out any individual type. And there are too many combinations to go over them all.

That being said, I think it is safe to say that any type combination weak to bug or electric should be a no-go. And while unlike some people I do not think a rock weakness is the worst thing, I do think that two specific types, namely Bug and Ice, do not provide enough offensively or defensively respectively for them to be worth the loss in durability that comes with a Rock weakness.
 
1) What qualities in a typing compliment the trapping effect? Note that I am referring to the "status" of being trapped and trapping mechanics themselves. I am not asking about powering up individual trapping moves. Feel free to discuss the trapping effect in general and you may use existing Pokemon with trapping moves / abilities if you need to illustrate a point about the overall trapping effect. Do some existing trappers trap well because of their typing and which qualities of their typing are important?

LucarioOfLegends made good points here, but I'll still throw in my two cents. Being able to resist whatever you've trapped is the greatest possible compliment to the trapping effect. Magnezone is a example of this; Pokemon it targets like Ferrothorn, Mega Scizor, Naviathan, and Skarmory can be removed with relative ease once it traps them because of its ability to easily take their hits. In the case that more than one of these exists per team, it can still trap and eliminate the remaining Pokemon because it was able to conserve its HP during the encounter with the first one. Although having a STAB that can deal a lot of damage against what you trapped is very nice, I think this idea of CAP 23 being able to live through whatever it has trapped should be a bigger priority.

2) Do some trappers still seem to function well despite having qualities in their typing that don't fully help their goal? If so, what qualities does the mon have that allow it to overcome their typing? And even if the typing doesn't help with the trapping mechanic, does it still help with providing pressure to help with the "trapping game" of trying to trap something of value?

I'll be looking at Heatran in this section, because it's the most realistic example we have of something using a trapping move. Also, Magnezone's typing doesn't really have flaws that get in the way of its goal (it resists the Steel-types that it exists almost solely to trap and eliminate), and Dugtrio's typing doesn't necessarily dictate how effectively it traps, just what it traps (i.e. its high Speed and good Attack allow it to trap things; yes, STAB Earthquake means a lot, but if it had a different type, it would just effectively trap a different set of things).

While Heatran's incredible defensive typing renders it immune to all damaging status (thus helping it be an effective wallbreaker), its Fire typing does it no favors against bulky Waters or Ground-types. However, it makes up for this in its raw offensive capabilities. Magma Storm is easily spammable due to its high power, useful offensive typing, STAB, and useful chip damage (and despite its low accuracy). Even if Heatran hits something it can't stay in on, it's still likely to get a fair bit of damage against it before it makes a completely safe retreat to something that can handle the foe. Not to mention, Heatran occasionally can stay in against such foes and KO them with a powerful coverage option (Earth Power, Bloom Doom from Solar Beam) or just another Magma Storm. Heatran is essentially viable as a trapper because Magma Storm is a fantastic move in general; if it was running, say, Fire Spin, the benefit of guaranteeing worthwhile damage output falls away and attempting to trap becomes much less effective as a whole.

4) What typings would be awful for a Pokemon using a trapping move? This is essentially a reverse-submission. Which typings you think are very bad for this concept and then try to explain and figure out the qualities that those typings have that hurt the concept.

I mostly agree with nyttyn on this one, although I think that Flying could actually be salvageable as a type for CAP23 if it were to be paired with something that resists Stealth Rock.

This probably goes without saying, but I don't think that Normal would be a good typing for CAP23. Although it would give us the defensive benefit of immunity to Ghost, it offers us no real offensive advantages against the Pokemon we want to trap. Also, the immunity to Ghost being its only defensive benefit is problematic for it to be able to take hits.

Rock would also be pretty bad, seeing as most of the Pokemon we would want to trap would easily be able to do away with it (bulky Waters, Steel-types, Ground-types, Grass-types). Although generally a good attacking type, the only real gain to be made from using it would be a super-effective STAB hit on Fire types, which seems too small of a justification for such a bad defensive typing.

In response to Reviloja753 and gibygiby , I don't think we can rule out Ghost. Sure, it makes CAP23 vulnerable to Pursuit, but the only Pokemon that actually runs that is Colossoil. While Colossoil is widely used and I don't like the idea of making something weak to it, a Ghost typing still would provide the great benefit of STAB Spirit Shackle against other Ghosts, the only things we can't trap. Besides, if we don't want to make it weak to Pursuit, we have two typing slots to work with.

EDIT: jas61292 made his post just a few seconds before I got mine up, so I wanted to address his point about not letting in common U-Turners and Volt-Switchers. I think this pretty much invalidates the use of Electric type, seeing as it easily allows CAP23 to be beaten by Colossoil and Landorus-T, two of the most ubiquitous Pokemon in the entire metagame, while providing too little offensive benefit against some of the things it would be good for us to trap (i.e. it gets a STAB hit on Tomohawk, Celesteela, and bulky Waters, but completely fails against Ground, Grass, and some Steel-types). I maintain my point about not ruling out Ghost because, although alone it would invite Colossoil, I think Colossoil could still be easily deterred a several secondary typing.
 
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1) What qualities in a typing compliment the trapping effect? Note that I am referring to the "status" of being trapped and trapping mechanics themselves. I am not asking about powering up individual trapping moves. Feel free to discuss the trapping effect in general and you may use existing Pokemon with trapping moves / abilities if you need to illustrate a point about the overall trapping effect. Do some existing trappers trap well because of their typing and which qualities of their typing are important?
Heatran and decidueye (and dhelmise but who even uses it to trap) have good defensive typings sure, but they have decent offensive typings too. Heatran can resist 9 but can super effectively hit 6 types with it's stabs, most notabley the tapus and scizor, ferro and zone. Since we're trapping someone, it needs to be able to hit somehting AND have a nice pair of stabs to kill said mon.

3)Since we lack the ability to "revenge trap" (coming in on a mon after one of yours was KOed, or even double switching) an opponent the way that trapping abilities do, in what ways does this alter our typing's interaction with trapping?
CAP 23 would need to either threaten out someone and trap them (preventing the enemy from double switching) or have a typing that has a ton of resistances/immunities.

4) What typings would be awful for a Pokemon using a trapping move? This is essentially a reverse-submission. Which typings you think are very bad for this concept and then try to explain and figure out the qualities that those typings have that hurt the concept.
People are really misjudging flying type. Sure it's stealth rock weak, but it can handle mega venu, tomo, has many resistances and resists u turn. The volt switch weakness can be covered by another type like ground. The cap metagame is seriously screwed by ground types, and trapping a mon which this cap can take advantage of with is a good direction to go in, So with the right support,

But typing weak to volt swithc or u turn that can't be remedied by another typing like psychic and dark is something to stray away from
 

S. Court

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1) What qualities in a typing compliment the trapping effect? Note that I am referring to the "status" of being trapped and trapping mechanics themselves. I am not asking about powering up individual trapping moves. Feel free to discuss the trapping effect in general and you may use existing Pokemon with trapping moves / abilities if you need to illustrate a point about the overall trapping effect. Do some existing trappers trap well because of their typing and which qualities of their typing are important?

Considering CAP23 will trap bulky Pokemon and some pivots, it should be able to switch consistently to the field, that means it needs to resist hazards and also resist the VoltTurn combo, if we choose Anchor Shot or Spirit Shackle, it should have STAB in the selected move to encourage the player to use this move in particular.

Heatran -the most and probably only notable trapper in CAP metagame- also shows a plethora of resistances is important, and a good arsenal against defensive moves, but that'd be discussed in further points so I won't bring forward this topic

4) What typings would be awful for a Pokemon using a trapping move? This is essentially a reverse-submission. Which typings you think are very bad for this concept and then try to explain and figure out the qualities that those typings have that hurt the concept.

A generally bad defensive typing would be terrible for CAP23. Also, types like ghost, psychic or dark can be suboptimal due to being weak to U-turn/Pursuit (both in Psychic case) and types weaks to Stealth Rock like bug, except if their mix with another type can add a workable plethora of resistances (just giving an example, Heatran resists a good amount of types, and that helps to its trapper role, even if it's weak to Stealth Rock)

I think bug definitively should be discard, it doesn't fit in any of thos categories at all (at least if mixed with steel, but I think I'm anticipating too much to facts for now)
 
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david0895

Mercy Main Btw
1) What qualities in a typing compliment the trapping effect? Do some existing trappers trap well because of their typing and which qualities of their typing are important?

A good quality is to be resistent to VoltTurn moves, this can allow you to shoot a powerful move without taking high damage if the target wants to switch out.
Dugtrio and Heatran are the only good trappers and both of them have good typings that help them in their job: the first has the Ground type, that hits at least neutrally at lot of stuff, the second has the Steel type, that grants him the immunity to Toxic and other Poison moves.

4) What typings would be awful for a Pokemon using a trapping move? This is essentially a reverse-submission. Which typings you think are very bad for this concept and then try to explain and figure out the qualities that those typings have that hurt the concept.

As I said, resisting VoltTurn moves is a good advantage, so we need to avoid these types, since this will complicate the job of trapping who has VoltTurn moves:
  • Dark
  • Grass
  • Psychic
  • Flying
  • Water
 
1) What qualities in a typing compliment the trapping effect? Do some existing trappers trap well because of their typing and which qualities of their typing are important?

I feel like a typing that will compliment the trapping effect is that it should be able to be somewhat resistant to VoltTurn and should have a decent defensive typing. Another thing that will compliment Cap23's trapping effect is having a typing that doesn't let it get trapped by other trappers and get ohkoed by the likes of magnezone and dugtrio. Dugtrio is a good trapper because it is immune to electric and can take advantage of that by switching into electric move. Magnezone does its job well because of how many resistance it has.
 
3)Since we lack the ability to "revenge trap" (coming in on a mon after one of yours was KOed, or even double switching) an opponent the way that trapping abilities do, in what ways does this alter our typing's interaction with trapping?
In my opinion, a typing with many resistances should be king here, allowing us to be able to tank, or at least not die to, some common types. Again, Heatran comes to mind with this, where it has a whopping 9 resistances, 5 of them being 4x resists, and 2 immunities. Steel as a type is extremely potent defensively, resisting Bug type, Fairy type, and Psychic type moves, all prominent moves in the metagame. Fire and poison come in after with 6 and five resistances, respectively, although fire is weak to EdgeQuake coverage and rocks, which wouldn't be ideal. A surefire problem with all 3 of these typings are a weakness to Ground Type, which could easily be remedied by Levitate or a secondary typing that resists ground, such as Grass. Tl;DR, have a typing that has a common resistance to bug moves to dissuade u-turn, and pile on as many resists so it's harder to hit TrapCAP super effectively.
 
1) What qualities in a typing compliment the trapping effect? Note that I am referring to the "status" of being trapped and trapping mechanics themselves. I am not asking about powering up individual trapping moves. Feel free to discuss the trapping effect in general and you may use existing Pokemon with trapping moves / abilities if you need to illustrate a point about the overall trapping effect. Do some existing trappers trap well because of their typing and which qualities of their typing are important?
Since CAP 23 needs to you to identify the defensive members of the opponents team to really do something, and while you might be able to identify them from team preview it will take a bit to find the right moment to send in 23 to trap them and do some damage. Because of this inherent need to switch in later 23 needs to be able to resist common hazards such as stealth rock and be able to deal with the occasional switch punishing status move such as toxic, will-o-wisp, and t-wave. Another bump in the road to 23's success are VoltTurn pivots that get rid of 23's trapping and switch into more offensive pokemon that 23 can't handle. Due to these weaknesses I believe that a defensive typing that can deal with a status compliments not only 23's trapping strategy, but all trap move strategies.

3) Since we lack the ability to "revenge trap" (coming in on a mon after one of yours was KOed, or even double switching) an opponent the way that trapping abilities do, in what ways does this alter our typing's interaction with trapping? (Again, originally part of Question 1 but I split it up)
It restricts us from making 23 a mon that has multiple weaknesses but hit common types due to the fact it has to survive a turn to be able to make use of its trapping move. It puts us in the position to make sure 23 can survive to be able to trap multiple members of the team later, while if we had thrown survival to the wind 23 woul most likely only be able to trap one member of the team.
4) What typings would be awful for a Pokemon using a trapping move? This is essentially a reverse-submission. Which typings you think are very bad for this concept and then try to explain and figure out the qualities that those typings have that hurt the concept.

We should avoid any typing with many weakness and a low number of resists

Fire- While it does present a will-o-wisp immunity it is weak to stealth rocks and earthquake
Flying- Gives a ground immunity, but weak to stealth rocks and Volt Switch, one of the counters to 23's strategy
Bug- Weak to not only to flying and rock, but doesn't give a useful resist or immunity
Dark- While it gives us immunity to Tomohawk's prankster and STAB on a possible pursuit to discourage switching it is weak to U-turn which could be an easily exploitable weakness
 
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Drapionswing

Eating it up, YUMMY!
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1) What qualities in a typing compliment the trapping effect? Note that I am referring to the "status" of being trapped and trapping mechanics themselves. I am not asking about powering up individual trapping moves. Feel free to discuss the trapping effect in general and you may use existing Pokemon with trapping moves / abilities if you need to illustrate a point about the overall trapping effect. Do some existing trappers trap well because of their typing and which qualities of their typing are important?

When looking for a typing to compliment trapping, you'd normally want an offensive typing with or without defensive backbone. This can be seen in cases such as Dugtrio and Magnezone. This is complimentary due to the instantaneous pressure it has as upon switching into a trap victim. Now given the scenario you want to trap a Pokemon with a trapping move this logic can only be applied so far due to the inability to have the Pokemon trapped upon switchin. This can also be seen in the mindgames it creates, Ability Trapping is pressure just from the Team Preview, even if the Pokemon isn't out. However Cap23 will not be able to apply the same level of consistent pressure versus Pokemon it already beats, and would have standard team pressure of an average threatening Pokemon.

Looking at heatran now, here is a list of some pokemon it can trap:

  • Chansey
  • Tomohawk(No Fighting-Type Move)
  • Toxapex
  • Tapu Fini
  • Arghonaut
  • Cyclohm
  • Mew
  • Rotom-Wash
252 SpA Heatran Tectonic Rage (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 64 SpD Toxapex: 270-318 (88.8 - 104.6%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO(KO After rocks or Magma Storm damage)
252 SpA Heatran Bloom Doom (190 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Fini: 330-390 (96.2 - 113.7%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Heatran Bloom Doom (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Arghonaut: 414-488 (100 - 117.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Heatran Bloom Doom (190 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-Wash: 392-462 (129.3 - 152.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Heatran Tectonic Rage (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Cyclohm: 510-602 (121.4 - 143.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO


Chansey, Tomohawk and Mew are all prevented from healing, and therefore lose eventually.

The key behind Heatrans success as a trapper is, most of these Pokemon are well established fire checks on teams, this allows Heatran to lure them in as they are Natural Fire-Type responses. The only time Heatran is trapping something it defensively beats is when a Pokemon may come in to appose it's utility (Stealth Rock in Mew and Tomohawk's case), incorrect predictions or sacking (Clef vs Heatran). Due to Pokemon such as Toxapex, Arghonaut, Cyclohm and Rotom-Wash all resisting Magma Storm, the trapping move, whilst also being able to beat one of the potential trapping sets (SubToxic or Groundium Z) they become a potential switchin, giving you opportunity to lock down and kill the Pokemon (as shown by calcs).

Being difficult to switch into definitely helps, as standard blanket checks (Celesteela, Tomohawk, AV Magearna, Pyroak, Tangrowth or Toxapex) may be used as poor answers to alleviate team weaknesses, also opening room for core dismantling. Abusing already established common checks to a great, even good, typing by making them our trap victim allows for plenty of trap potential. Which also leads me to believe that Cap23 needs a typing with strong offensive potential to give it a good amount of potential trap targets.

Now this isn't to say the typing can't have good defensive capabilities, as I definitely think it needs them to a degree so it can trap as efficiently as possible. However I do believe that focusing too much on a defensive typing would hinder the end result for Cap23.
 
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snake

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4) What typings would be awful for a Pokemon using a trapping move? This is essentially a reverse-submission. Which typings you think are very bad for this concept and then try to explain and figure out the qualities that those typings have that hurt the concept.

The only types that have a really hard time being remedied with a secondary ability (i.e., the advantages of the type aren't worth it at all for this concept) are Bug, Rock, and Ice - these are just so bad defensively that I don't think they're worth considering. They /could/ work but I'm not too convinced of it. Any other type can be remedied with a secondary type to balance out problems like a Stealth Rock weakness and VoltTurn weaknesses. As long as we're neutral to Stealth Rock, Volt Switch, and U-turn, we can work with a bunch of different types.

Now a few typings which I think have gotten a little bit too much bashing so far. Understand that I am not endorsing any of these types at the present moment.

Fire and Flying typing have been shot down by a lot of people so far because of their weakness to Stealth Rock, but their offensive merits can help make up whatever weaknesses they provide, as these types are potent in breaking down common metagame walls. Both of these resist U-turn, which helps a lot! Flying-type also lets us avoid Toxic Spikes.

Whether or not you think Ghost typing is a good thing or not with regards to Spirit Shackle (undecided myself), we shouldn't be so quick to discount Ghost typing, as again, its offensive merit is very appreciated with such neutral coverage across the metagame. While the Pursuit weakness sucks, a secondary typing can help mitigate this flaw. Also, this type resists U-turn as well!

When we're thinking about types, don't forget that a) dual typing is an option and can mitigate a single typing's weaknesses and b) offensive capabilities are not to be underestimated as well.
 
2) Do some trappers still seem to function well despite having qualities in their typing that don't fully help their goal? If so, what qualities does the mon have that allow it to overcome their typing? And even if the typing doesn't help with the trapping mechanic, does it still help with providing pressure to help with the "trapping game" of trying to trap something of value?

Yes, is the short answer.

It'll have probably been talked about to death by the time I finish this post, but screw it; let's talk Heatran anyway. Its Fire-typing prevents it from being burned, and its Steel-typing renders it immune to Sandstorm damage and, in most cases, Toxic and Poison Touch. These qualities cut down on the amount of residual damage that Tran is forced to take, which in turn maximizes the number of opportunities it has to try and catch something with its signature Magma Storm and trap them. Fire/Steel has its shortcomings, however. For starters, no mon in their right mind would envy its glaring x4 weakness to EQ and other Ground moves, especially not considering that Ground is such a powerful offensive STAB/coverage. Tran also has a tendency to invite bulky Waters due to being weak to their STAB moves, and is weak to Fighting on top of that.

However, the biggest qualities that allow Heatran to overcome its typing's faults are its stat placement and its access to powerful attacks. 91/106/106 defenses can easily be EV'ed for Tran to survive whatever attacks it might need to, and a 130 Sp. Attack stat is no laughing matter. Earth Power, Flash Cannon and especially Magma Storm put such a high stat to good use, and even if Tran catches a bulky Water- or Ground-type (whether intentionally or otherwise), there's also Solar Beam to worry about. This is usually paired with Grassium Z so that Tran can kill them off with Bloom Doom, but one can also pair it with something that has Drought... if only so Solar Beam remains momentarily useful.

Although not common for understandable reasons, Decidueye also sees some success as a Pokemon that relies on its signature move to trap an opponent. It has access to Roost so it can heal up against whatever it ultimately traps (assuming one wants it to stay in of course) and Swords Dance to capitalize on setup fodder, and while it is usually strictly physical for this reason, a special or mixed set can potentially be used to throw the opponent off. The opponent may also need to think twice about switching in a Pokemon that can take one Spirit Shackle but not the omnipresent Sinister Arrow Raid; this is certainly the case if Decidueye's user anticipates a switch.

3) Since we lack the ability to "revenge trap" (coming in on a mon after one of yours was KOed, or even double switching) an opponent the way that trapping abilities do, in what ways does this alter our typing's interaction with trapping?

While we don't have to worry about any restriction of what type of mon we can trap (Magnet Pull can only ever trap Steels, Arena Trap can't keep in Flyers or Levitaters and Shadow Tag is banned), there's always one thing we have to keep in mind when using TrapCAP: If your opponent is smart, they won't allow you to trap the mon in front of it if they can help it. They'll switch into their pivots. They'll switch into their tanks in order to try and 1v1 TrapCAP. They'll switch into their sacs so that they go down instead, affording the ability to revenge kill it later. They may even make the aggressive switch if they're ballsy enough and/or have a good read on you. As such, it would pay to maximize the number opportunities TrapCAP has to work with, as well as give it a wide "net" of sorts so it can trap a variety of opponents. This can be done by choosing powerful offensive typing with quality resistances and/or immunities.

4) What typings would be awful for a Pokemon using a trapping move? This is essentially a reverse-submission. Which typings you think are very bad for this concept and then try to explain and figure out the qualities that those typings have that hurt the concept.

I'm sure we already have a rough idea on what to give a miss at this point, but I'll add my two cents in here anyway.

Dark: As has been mentioned multiple times, what makes Dark questionable for TrapCAP overall is its natural weakness to U-Turn. Sure, there are plenty of options to help cancel out such a weakness, but each secondary typing opens up its own can of worms. For example, both Fire and Flying trade the U-Turn weakness for a Stealth Rock weakness (among other fun things that the former invites in particular). However, the main reason I feel Dark to be a bad typing is because it dissuades TrapCAP from running Spirit Shackle entirely, due to hitting the exact same types super-effectively. I don't like that Dark pairs so poorly with Spirit Shackle, and I feel this is just as much a flaw as the natural U-Turn weakness.

Normal: I already stated above that it'd pay to maximize the number opportunities TrapCAP has to work with and give it a wide "net" to trap a variety of opponents with. Normal does neither of those. This means that the second typing has to pick up the slack in order for TrapCAP to do its job, in which case it can arguably make just as much, if not more sense, to just run pure Ground or pure Ghost or whatever. The only thing Normal can possibly offer is an immunity to Ghost-type attacks, but Ghost isn't exactly the most common attack type in the world... and its certainly not common enough to prioritize over VoltTurn and SR.

Bug: This type needs too much support in order to function as a whole; especially in the face of this specific concept. A resistance to Thousand Arrows is certainly tempting, don't get me wrong. But even if a Bug-type trapper were to successfully trap Landorus-T in all its glory, how do you know Lando won't in turn nuke it into oblivion with a Z-Fly? Aside from that, Birdspam is a thing and Fire is a common coverage move for Scizor and Ferrothorn, and we'd have to contend with a weakness to Rocks as well. It falls flat on the offensive side as well, as many types resist Bug and that makes it all the more difficult to procure neutral coverage.

Electric & Poison: Both of these share the same fault IMO, so I'll talk about them at the same time. In any case, jas61292 makes a valid point; it's no good resisting VoltTurn if you're gonna be forced out by its common users anyway. And this is where Electric and Poison both falter. Lando-T and Colossoil threaten the two types with STAB EQs, and if they have too low physical bulk, Kitsunoh can smack them around with Shadow Strike as well, continuously fishing for Defense drops to rub salt into the wound. And even if they can take two and/or are faster, Kitsunoh can just as easily bail anyway because its Ghost typing allows it to do so. True, Electric fares better against Kitsunoh due to resisting the Steel STAB and actually being able to hit it with its own, but that's a small victory for Electric to have. In any case, both it and Poison only hit two types apiece for SE damage, and have a slew of things that resist them on top of that. Not exactly a stellar performance from either typing, albeit a bit better than Normal and Bug in their respective departments.
 
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4) What typings would be awful for a Pokemon using a trapping move? This is essentially a reverse-submission. Which typings you think are very bad for this concept and then try to explain and figure out the qualities that those typings have that hurt the concept.
Anything with a Dark weakness; Colossoil is already a huge part of the meta. Being weak to Dark, which is apparent with Knock off (there is rarely a team which doesn't run it), Pursuit, and particularly, Sucker Punch, given CAP23's propensity to run a trapping move that may or may not rely on being an attack move. Non-STAB weakness to Dark can be mitigated however through items such as the Colbur Berry, or items which trigger once only, like Terrain Seeds or Weakness Policy, potentially alongside an ability that allows it to boost indirectly; i.e Unburden.

Stealth Rock/General entry hazard weakness; Given that the trapping ability of CAP23 is reliant on its ability to switch in to a battle and either use it's trapping move to keep the opponent in the battle, or to force it out, to have CAP23 be at 25% or lower health simply by switching in is seriously going to cut down on its ability to stick around. Stealth Rocks is the primary one, but Spikes, Toxic Spikes, and Sticky Web are all popular. Stealth Rock primarily cuts out Bug, Ice, and Fire, which are notoriously weak within cap defensively thanks to the lot of Rock thrown about.

Ghost Weakness; Ghost is automatically immune to the trapping effect, so can at least leave as it pleases which is already bad enough. To thus be weak to Ghost would mean that it would be at the mercy of Shadow Sneak.

Pivot-move weakness; Being weak to moves as ubiquitous as U-Turn and/or Volt Switch gives free damage and the ability to leave the trap you're trying to set. Dark, Grass and Psychic should be immediate no-go.

Normal; Normal provides no offensive benefit outside of a STAB Frustration or Facade and defensively it is weak to Fighting moves, which makes something like one combined with Steel weak to one of the most common attacking types. However, it shores up Ghosts resilience so that it is no longer weak to Ghosts, and the Fighting weakness is now an immunity. Those two typings really work together very well, the combination much greater than the sum of their individual parts IMHO.

Psychic strikes for 2 of those (Dark, Ghost and U-Turn weakness) as well as one lacking a STAB on any offensive trapping move. Fire and Bug, despite having STAB's with Binding Moves are on very mediocre bases, and have a weakness to Stealth Rock. Poison is weak to Ground and Psychic, despite the immunity to Toxic Spikes putting a timer on CAP23 as well as hurting its resilience, which leaves it in range of ever present Colossoil or Tapu Lele. Sticky Web can be countered by ability or moveset only. Electric despite resilience to Volt Turn is at risk of Colossoil and Land-T.​
 
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1) What qualities in a typing compliment the trapping effect? Note that I am referring to the "status" of being trapped and trapping mechanics themselves. I am not asking about powering up individual trapping moves. Feel free to discuss the trapping effect in general and you may use existing Pokemon with trapping moves / abilities if you need to illustrate a point about the overall trapping effect.

Well, the typing helps the trapper only to be assured to not be killed by the opponent. I think this is predominant when we want to trap with a trap move given that you cannot lock the target in switching. You have to trap the target with your move and then play with him, it means the foe hits you at least one time (that's not like a dugtrio for example).

To qualify this, we will trap mostly stallers so mons with generally a poor offensive presence. It doesn't matter much to get plethora of resistances. Just to dont be weak to the more offensive of them. Heatran is weak to toxapex but we don't care of that because this hideous water mon is as passive as my cat.

4) What typings would be awful for a Pokemon using a trapping move? This is essentially a reverse-submission. Which typings you think are very bad for this concept and then try to explain and figure out the qualities that those typings have that hurt the concept.

Avoid to be killed by Volturn looks great. I wont repeat what it is said above so just read what people wrote before my post.

I wanna add something, I think Cap23 mustn't be weak to Tomohawk. The players will take Cap23 to be able to go through bulky archetype, Tomohawk is very common inside. Furthermore, heatran, the only reliable trapper in CAP, is weak to Tomo if it runs a fighting move. There is no reason to add an other trapper which sucks against the same opponent. Avoid to be weak to fighting and flying is necessary to the viability of CAP23

I don't think to not resist dark is an issue considering that CAP23 doesn't have to especially threat offensive archetype (or even trap colossoil). An hazard weakness is not too boring either because a trapper doesn't come often on the board, just one time or two to trapkill the target.
 

Ignus

Copying deli meat to hard drive
I'm going to go against some of the stuff said in the thread already because I don't think they're accurate with regards to u-turn. I DONT actually think a resist to voltturn is particularly nessecary, and my opinion can basically be summed up in one question:

When are we ever going to want to switch into u-turn?

One of the main things we said in concept assessment was that u-turn naturally makes it hard for us to properly pin down our intended trap target. By resisting u-turn, we're encouraging the user of CAP23 to switch into something using u-turn. Isn't that the complete opposite of what we want? Like, sure, lots of pivots use u-turn. But we already established that we can't really threaten them with a trap move if they switch away right when TrapCAP comes out.

So is it the end of the world if CAP23 has a u-turn resist? No. Getting a resist on accident is fine.

But should we be actively trying to give it one?
Probably not.
 
I'm going to go against some of the stuff said in the thread already because I don't think they're accurate with regards to u-turn. I DONT actually think a resist to voltturn is particularly nessecary, and my opinion can basically be summed up in one question:

When are we ever going to want to switch into u-turn?

One of the main things we said in concept assessment was that u-turn naturally makes it hard for us to properly pin down our intended trap target. By resisting u-turn, we're encouraging the user of CAP23 to switch into something using u-turn. Isn't that the complete opposite of what we want? Like, sure, lots of pivots use u-turn. But we already established that we can't really threaten them with a trap move if they switch away right when TrapCAP comes out.

So is it the end of the world if CAP23 has a u-turn resist? No. Getting a resist on accident is fine.

But should we be actively trying to give it one?
Probably not.
You take the problem in the wrong way in my opinion.
CAP23 must bypass bulky mons (including pivot). That's the strength of trapping. There are fat pivots which dont have uturn/volt-switch (like tangrowth) but there are others which get it.

Imagine just there is a lando in the opposite team, you wanna trap a mon but you know that the opponent gonna switch into landorus to take the hit. What do you do except switch into an other mate if you are weak to u-turn ? I say lando but it can be rotom-wash, zapdos or whatever else. You just have to be able to trap kill the target, not start to switch in avoiding a pivot because you are weak to one of the most important combo in the game.
 
I'm going to go against some of the stuff said in the thread already because I don't think they're accurate with regards to u-turn. I DONT actually think a resist to voltturn is particularly nessecary, and my opinion can basically be summed up in one question:

When are we ever going to want to switch into u-turn?

One of the main things we said in concept assessment was that u-turn naturally makes it hard for us to properly pin down our intended trap target. By resisting u-turn, we're encouraging the user of CAP23 to switch into something using u-turn. Isn't that the complete opposite of what we want? Like, sure, lots of pivots use u-turn. But we already established that we can't really threaten them with a trap move if they switch away right when TrapCAP comes out.

So is it the end of the world if CAP23 has a u-turn resist? No. Getting a resist on accident is fine.

But should we be actively trying to give it one?
Probably not.
We cannot always control what we trap. If we trap a VoltTurner, and we are weak to VoltTurn, then not only can they escape our trap, ruing our play completely, but they can do extensive damage as well, making us even less useful and more vulnerable later on. In fact, they may U-Turn into a mon that can then oneshot us after the U-Turn damage.
 
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