BH Balanced Hackmons

Champion Leon

Banned deucer.
I know how you feel, scarf with modest nature doesn't get the sweet ohko on SpD Giratina which bummed me out at first until I saw the work that specs put in, it may not be as powerful as it was in the EV Limit era but it's still scary as hell to have that thing blasting away at your wall forcing you to spam recover because you're still losing almost half your health every turn. Gyarados is still annoying though if there's anything that can eat a secret sword like slowbro or ghosts :/
It may have one job with refrigerate but it does it well
Since Specs is checked by Imposter due to the Speed tie, I was wondering if Focus Sash and Quiver Dance might be an option. Wish or Defog/Spin support would allow it to get the equivalent of Specs, Scarf, Assault Vest and even set up on Imposter Blissey with Quiver Dance. Since Secret Sword hits the foe's Defense, Imposter risks a KO even after boosting.

Quiver Dance / Shell Smash
Boomburst
Core Enforcer
Secret Sword

Aegislash can switch in, but unless it has Prankster Recover, it isn't a good thing to rely on as a counter. More as a check.

Let's be honest, if people can still get away with using Shedinja, which is allergic to entry hazards, what's stopping Focus Sash on this set, or anything else for that matter?

Focus Sash also allows it to handle non Fake-Out priority users like Triage Mega Rayquaza even after Shell Smash, etc.
 
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Lcass4919

The Xatu Warrior
Since Specs is checked by Imposter due to the Speed tie, I was wondering if Focus Sash and Quiver Dance might be an option. Wish or Defog/Spin support would allow it to get the equivalent of Specs, Scarf, Assault Vest and even set up on Imposter Blissey with Quiver Dance. Since Secret Sword hits the foe's Defense, Imposter risks a KO even after boosting.

Quiver Dance / Shell Smash
Boomburst
Core Enforcer
Secret Sword

Aegislash can switch in, but unless it has Prankster Recover, it isn't a good thing to rely on as a counter. More as a check.

Let's be honest, if people can still get away with using Shedinja, which is allergic to entry hazards, what's stopping Focus Sash on this set, or anything else for that matter?

Focus Sash also allows it to handle non Fake-Out priority users like Triage Mega Rayquaza even after Shell Smash, etc.
the difference between shedinja and focus sash is "risk vs reward" in that you have to specifically think about shedinja and how to keep hazards off the field. shedinja requires a stupid amount of team preparation and support, and thats why its fallen a LOT this gen, since now there are two mold breaker attacks that stop shedinja from doing what it wants to do. shedinja has a LOT of flaws going into the match, however, shedinja's utility is worth the extensive teambuilding, as shedinja can tank hits, revenge kill, wallbreak and pivot out all in one set. shedinjas risky teambuilding is worth it due to the insane amount of utility shedinja brings(at least, last gen it was) although this kyurem with sash is similar...it still has to watch out for priority, rkillers, bulky walls, random attacks that will break sash, on top of needing hazard control. and all of that just for a sash on a powerful mon whos bulk is already high enough to tank most hits. the risk definitely outweighs the reward. not saying its an awful idea, im just saying shedinja gets away with it better because its reward outweighs the hassle put into keeping it alive and happy.
 
Because Core Enforcer doesn't OHKO original Kyu-W anyway and Kyu-W barely 2HKOS non-Eviolite Imposter Chansey. You might as well run Specs and pray for two speed tie wins or run Knock Off support and run Scarf for a 2HKO. Shell Smash might change that, but you'll need more than one smash to reliably OHKO Imposter still.

Besides, do you really want to give Imposter Kyu-W Q.Dance/Smash boosts?
 

Champion Leon

Banned deucer.
the difference between shedinja and focus sash is "risk vs reward" in that you have to specifically think about shedinja and how to keep hazards off the field. shedinja requires a stupid amount of team preparation and support, and thats why its fallen a LOT this gen, since now there are two mold breaker attacks that stop shedinja from doing what it wants to do. shedinja has a LOT of flaws going into the match, however, shedinja's utility is worth the extensive teambuilding, as shedinja can tank hits, revenge kill, wallbreak and pivot out all in one set. shedinjas risky teambuilding is worth it due to the insane amount of utility shedinja brings(at least, last gen it was) although this kyurem with sash is similar...it still has to watch out for priority, rkillers, bulky walls, random attacks that will break sash, on top of needing hazard control. and all of that just for a sash on a powerful mon whos bulk is already high enough to tank most hits. the risk definitely outweighs the reward. not saying its an awful idea, im just saying shedinja gets away with it better because its reward outweighs the hassle put into keeping it alive and happy.
I disagree, 1 turn of Quiver Dance with the safety net of Focus Sash (not factoring in Imposter), outweighs the extra turn and moveslot from Scarf/Specs because you are not stuck on a move.

"Why?" You may ask, but then remember that K-W's job is to force switches, and with many already assuming a Choice Set, you regain the extra turn it takes to set up on their switch out, and since they have switched to a check or counter, not expecting you to set up, you can select whatever move hurts most (say Secret Sword on a Steel Type, Core Enforcer on a Primal-Kyogre, etc.) you even have the option of setting up again if you can rely on Focus Sash to keep you alive as you boost and go for the big sweep.

Focus Sash is a safety net, and by no means does Kyurem get hampered by it, in fact, it is an enabler to get the benefits of whatever Choice items a standard set would have, albeit with 1 less moveslot.

If we are sticking with Quiver Dance, then Kyurem-W can now survive more special hits than its Choice sets, as you mentioned it has good bulk.

I think shell smash creates a Focus Sash dependency, but you can use Psychic Surge on a teammate before switching to Kyurem-B, Misty Surge on a teammate to prevent status, etc.

Because Core Enforcer doesn't OHKO original Kyu-W anyway and Kyu-W barely 2HKOS non-Eviolite Imposter Chansey. You might as well run Specs and pray for two speed tie wins or run Knock Off support and run Scarf for a 2HKO. Shell Smash might change that, but you'll need more than one smash to reliably OHKO Imposter still.

Besides, do you really want to give Imposter Kyu-W Q.Dance/Smash boosts?
You totally ignored the part where I mentioned using Secret Sword against Imposter, which I highlighted ignore Quiver Dance boosts. I wouldn't use Core Enforcer on the foe, Secret Sword would do more, especially as it hits off the unboosted Defense Stat.

Further, This is based on a -Defense nature and 0 IVs, as SomeIrish states:
I've been using Kyurem-W for quite a bit now and would like to know what you guys think about him.
He's been a very powerful wallbreaker with specs, just shy of 2hko on registeel after rocks. Although its strength outside of boomburst is limited with secret sword being the only other move of use as it nails gyarados and imposters.
And since he mentioned it's strength outside of Boomburst is limited to Secret Sword, then why not fit Quiver Dance?

I don't know how to do the damage calculator for Imposter sets because it doesn't let you adjust HP on Kyurem-B, nor Defenses on Chansey.

I would assume a +1 Secret Sword K-W vs - Def 0 IV Def Imposter K-W
 
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morogrim

( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
I disagree, 1 turn of Quiver Dance with the safety net of Focus Sash (not factoring in Imposter), outweighs the extra turn and moveslot from Scarf/Specs because you are not stuck on a move.

"Why?" You may ask, but then remember that K-W's job is to force switches, and with many already assuming a Choice Set, you regain the extra turn it takes to set up on their switch out, and since they have switched to a check or counter, not expecting you to set up, you can select whatever move hurts most (say Secret Sword on a Steel Type, Core Enforcer on a Primal-Kyogre, etc.) you even have the option of setting up again if you can rely on Focus Sash to keep you alive as you boost and go for the big sweep.

Focus Sash is a safety net, and by no means does Kyurem get hampered by it, in fact, it is an enabler to get the benefits of whatever Choice items a standard set would have, albeit with 1 less moveslot.

If we are sticking with Quiver Dance, then Kyurem-W can now survive more special hits than its Choice sets, as you mentioned it has good bulk.

I think shell smash creates a Focus Sash dependency, but you can use Psychic Surge on a teammate before switching to Kyurem-B, Misty Surge on a teammate to prevent status, etc.



You totally ignored the part where I mentioned using Secret Sword against Imposter, which I highlighted ignore Quiver Dance boosts.

Further, This is based on a -Defense nature and 0 IVs, as SomeIrish states:


And since he mentioned it's strength outside of Boomburst is limited to Secret Sword, then why not fit Quiver Dance?
The difference between this and Shedinja is that this gimmick is one-time use only. If for whatever reason the Kyurem takes any sort of chip damage and fails to sweep the first time it sets up, there is a good chance it will never find the chance to do so later in the game since the Sash is no longer intact. This is of course beside the fact that any sort of hazard immediately ruins your gimmick, but since hazards also screw Shedinja over I won't be talking about that here since the topic is a comparison between Shed and Sash Kyurem.

In short, Shedinja is way more consistent despite its glaring weaknesses given proper team support. Kyurem could have excellent hazard removal support but even some chip damage from a U-turn pivot would give the Imposter a green light to go in. At best, Focus Sash on this Kyurem is a gimmick set that would work maybe once vs. a good player.

Edit: Nvm my post I just read this:
Since Specs is checked by Imposter due to the Speed tie
 

Champion Leon

Banned deucer.
The difference between this and Shedinja is that this gimmick is one-time use only. If for whatever reason the Kyurem takes any sort of chip damage and fails to sweep the first time it sets up, there is a good chance it will never find the chance to do so later in the game since the Sash is no longer intact. This is of course beside the fact that any sort of hazard immediately ruins your gimmick, but since hazards also screw Shedinja over I won't be talking about that here since the topic is a comparison between Shed and Sash Kyurem.

In short, Shedinja is way more consistent despite its glaring weaknesses given proper team support. Kyurem could have excellent hazard removal support but even some chip damage from a U-turn pivot would give the Imposter a green light to go in. At best, Focus Sash on this Kyurem is a gimmick set that would work maybe once vs. a good player.

Edit: Nvm my post I just read this:
But that's like me bringing up Shedinja being weak to Sandstorm, or Status like Toxic, Leech Seed, Infestation, etc., something that doesn't threaten K-W as much.

I don't see how a Specs Kyurem is not as badly hurt by Stealth Rock as Focus sash. Yes, it has immediate power, but again, we are not talking about something frail like Deoxy-A which needs Focus Sash to take even 1 hit, the EV max also benefited K-W, and it was fairly bulky to begin with.
Couldn't K-W still sweep without Focus Sash in fact? It's not an easy KO.

Focus Sash is there, and helpful when it works but it isn't always needed, it's like Lum Berry is there for Shedinja but isn't always needed because other items like Protective Pads or Safety Goggles (for weather), are options too since status doesn't always come into play (W-o-W's nerf makes it less common, Gengar/Mega-Gengar reduce Toxic Spikes' effectiveness due to absorption)... In fact, I have successfully used Misty Surge on a Shedinja team to compensate for lack of Lum Berry, and it worked well enough to let it use Protective Pads.

I see the bigger difference being the set-up move not the item... The item assists with the set-up move, but it isn't required. Imposter can be stopped by Focus Sash letting it survive, but there is still the Speed tie, just like there is with Specs K-W if it comes in at less than 100%.

One thing not considered is Imposter coming in on the Quiver Dance... not only does it prevent a Speed tie, it also means you will hit harder than the Imposter user, and threaten it, or hit their switch in harder than before.

If you have Prankster Spore, Haze, Heart Swap, Topsy-Turvy, Unaware Registeel/Gyarados-Mega, etc. then you can also handle Imposter.

Let's not assume worse case scenario with Focus Sash, you play well, you let it come in at 100%, set up on their switch, sweep, they send in imposter, you survive the hit while hitting them, etc.
Let's even take the set up move as the main difference; if you can use a Choice item that gives 1/3 the benefits of Quiver Dance, then QD seems like a decent choice.

Again, K-W + 1 Secret Sword vs Imposter K-W 0 IVs - Defense nature is the aim, as Quiver Dance makes Core Enforcer less effective against an Imposter.

Kyurem-W can also counter Kyogre-Primal better with Quiver Dance allowing it to sponge water hits, and boost Secret Sword to hit Kyogre from the Physical side (even if Kyogre Quiver Dances alongside it), and K-W's typing removes the Weakness to Ice most Dragon-types experience. Quiver Dance offers it things that a Scarf/Specs set does not, namely Bulk, move and item choices.
Oh, and what if it gets more than 1 Quiver Dance up? It has officially reached beyond the Choice Item benefits even more!
 
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morogrim

( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
But that's like me bringing up Shedinja being weak to Sandstorm, or Status like Toxic, Leech Seed, Infestation, etc., something that doesn't threaten K-W as much.

I don't see how a Specs Kyurem is not as badly hurt by Stealth Rock as Focus sash. Yes, it has immediate power, but again, we are not talking about something frail like Deoxy-A which needs Focus Sash to take even 1 hit, the EV max also benefited K-W, and it was fairly bulky to begin with. Couldn't K-W still sweep without Focus Sash in fact.

Focus Sash is there, and helpful when it works but it isn't always needed, it's like Lum Berry is there for Shedinja but isn't always needed because other items like Protective Pads or Safety Goggles (for weather), are options too.

I see the bigger difference being the set-up move not the item. The item assists with the set-up move, but it isn't required. Imposter can be stopped by Focus Sash letting it survive, but there is still the Speed tie, just like there is with Specs K-W if it comes in at less than 100%.

One thing not considered is Imposter coming in on the Quiver Dance... not only does it prevent a Speed tie, it also means you will hit harder than the Imposter user, and threaten it, or hit their switch in harder than before.

If you have Prankster Spore, Haze, Heart Swap, Topsy-Turvy, Unaware Registeel/Gyarados-Mega (especially with Spectral Thief), etc. then you can also handle Imposter.

Let's not assume worse case scenario with Focus Sash, you play well, you let it come in at 100%, set up on their switch, sweep, they send in imposter, you survive the hit while hitting them, etc.
Let's even take the set up move as the main difference; if you can use an item that gives 1/3 the benefits of Quiver Dance, then QD seems like a decent choice.
Let me try to get my point across with a different approach:

Since Specs is checked by Imposter due to the Speed tie, I was wondering if Focus Sash and Quiver Dance might be an option. Wish or Defog/Spin support would allow it to get the equivalent of Specs, Scarf, Assault Vest and even set up on Imposter Blissey with Quiver Dance. Since Secret Sword hits the foe's Defense, Imposter risks a KO even after boosting.
Here are some of the relevant calcs:

Damage done to the Imposter:

252 SpA Refrigerate Kyurem-White Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Kyurem-White: 178-210 (25.2 - 29.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

252 SpA Kyurem-White Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Kyurem-White: 128-152 (18.1 - 21.5%) -- possible 5HKO

252 SpA Kyurem-White Core Enforcer vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Kyurem-White: 212-252 (30.1 - 35.7%) -- 33.7% chance to 3HKO


Damage done by the Imposter:

252 SpA Refrigerate Kyurem-White Boomburst vs. 248 HP / 252 SpD Kyurem-White: 265-313 (58.4 - 69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Kyurem-White Secret Sword vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Kyurem-White: 192-228 (42.3 - 50.3%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO

252 SpA Kyurem-White Core Enforcer vs. 248 HP / 252 SpD Kyurem-White: 318-374 (70.1 - 82.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

The first bold part aside (I'll just pretend I never saw that), there is no scenario where you would ever want or even be able to set up on Imposter (I'm also assuming Imposter Chansey, who the hell would ever run Blissey) with this set! What's even more interesting is that none of the moves by the Imposter OHKO you, so running Sash is also fundamentally incorrect. Aside from the fact that CE could suppress your Refrigerate if the Imposter loses the Speed tie, making your Kyurem unable to sweep even if it did set up, you couldn't even 2HKO the Imposter with Secret Sword after a Quiver Dance. Even a +2 Secret Sword does 43% max. This is while the Imposter could indeed 2HKO you with pretty much any of its moves. There is no scenario where you would ever want to setup in the face of an Imposter, nor will it ever be successful if you choose to do so. So in short, the point I'm trying to make here is that running Sash and also thinking that you could set up in front of an Imposter is absolutely incorrect, which makes the set fundamentally flawed.

The point I was trying to make in the post I made previously was with the assumption that we are using the set as a gimmick to set up in front of threats that could actually OHKO us and hopefully be able to counter-sweep from there (once again assuming the opponent no longer has an Imposter since we already know the Imposter can definitely stop us). This assumption of course is the only one that makes sense since I already talked about why the scenario you were talking about is complete nonsense. So for this case, as I already mentioned, if you take any sort of chip damage for whatever reason (which includes the crap you mentioned about Leech Seed and weather), the gimmick set is immediately unable to set up against threats that could potentially OHKO it.

I hope this got the message across.
 

Champion Leon

Banned deucer.
Let me try to get my point across with a different approach:



Here are some of the relevant calcs:

Damage done to the Imposter:

252 SpA Refrigerate Kyurem-White Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Kyurem-White: 178-210 (25.2 - 29.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

252 SpA Kyurem-White Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Kyurem-White: 128-152 (18.1 - 21.5%) -- possible 5HKO

252 SpA Kyurem-White Core Enforcer vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Kyurem-White: 212-252 (30.1 - 35.7%) -- 33.7% chance to 3HKO


Damage done by the Imposter:

252 SpA Refrigerate Kyurem-White Boomburst vs. 248 HP / 252 SpD Kyurem-White: 265-313 (58.4 - 69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Kyurem-White Secret Sword vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Kyurem-White: 192-228 (42.3 - 50.3%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO

252 SpA Kyurem-White Core Enforcer vs. 248 HP / 252 SpD Kyurem-White: 318-374 (70.1 - 82.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

The first bold part aside (I'll just pretend I never saw that), there is no scenario where you would ever want or even be able to set up on Imposter (I'm also assuming Imposter Chansey, who the hell would ever run Blissey) with this set! What's even more interesting is that none of the moves by the Imposter OHKO you, so running Sash is also fundamentally incorrect. Aside from the fact that CE could suppress your Refrigerate if the Imposter loses the Speed tie, making your Kyurem unable to sweep even if it did set up, you couldn't even 2HKO the Imposter with Secret Sword after a Quiver Dance. Even a +2 Secret Sword does 43% max. This is while the Imposter could indeed 2HKO you with pretty much any of its moves. There is no scenario where you would ever want to setup in the face of an Imposter, nor will it ever be successful if you choose to do so. So in short, the point I'm trying to make here is that running Sash and also thinking that you could set up in front of an Imposter is absolutely incorrect, which makes the set fundamentally flawed.

The point I was trying to make in the post I made previously was with the assumption that we are using the set as a gimmick to set up in front of threats that could actually OHKO us and hopefully be able to counter-sweep from there (once again assuming the opponent no longer has an Imposter since we already know the Imposter can definitely stop us). This assumption of course is the only one that makes sense since I already talked about why the scenario you were talking about is complete nonsense. So for this case, as I already mentioned, if you take any sort of chip damage for whatever reason (which includes the crap you mentioned about Leech Seed and weather), the gimmick set is immediately unable to set up against threats that could potentially OHKO it.

I hope this got the message across.
You ignored the whole 0 Defense IVs and - Defense nature taking damage from Secret Sword... also, the whole point of focus Sash is not just for setting up, it's for when Imposter switches in after you have set up, say at +1, then it goes first during the Speed tie, you survive with Sash, then you hit with Secret Sword...

I literally mentioned that 3 posts in a row...
(Including this 1)
Can you try doing the calculations again?
+1 QD boosted Secret Sword Vs 0 Def IVs, 0 Def EVs, - Def nature Imposter Chansey.

It is assumed Kyurem-W will force a switch into a steel type, when they see I set up on the switch they may switch to Imposter knowing I don't have Scarf to outspeed, and that my Quiver Dance boosted their Special Defense, letting them think they are safe.

When they switch in, they see I have a Secret Sword, and think their Eviolite will protect them, unaware of the 0 IVs, 0 EVs and -Def nature. Suddenly, even if they go first, they activate my surprise item Focus Sash, and then get hit by my Secret Sword. Donezo.

Focus Sash is for surviving their Secret Sword attack, as I have a weakened Defense stat... after all, why would they Core Enforcer me if they see Quiver Dance has boosted my Special Defense up?
 
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morogrim

( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
You ignored the whole 0 Defense IVs and - Defense nature taking damage from Secret Sword... also, the whole point of focus Sash is not just for setting up, it's for when Imposter switches in after you have set up, say at +1, then it goes first during the Speed tie, you survive with Sash, then you hit with Secret Sword...

I literally mentioned that 3 posts in a row...
(Including this 1)
Can you try doing the calculations again?
+1 QD boosted Secret Sword Vs 0 Def IVs, 0 Def EVs, - Def nature Imposter Chansey.
+1 252 SpA Kyurem-White Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 0- Def Eviolite Kyurem-White: 322-380 (45.7 - 53.9%) -- 46.9% chance to 2HKO --> you do not OHKO Imposter

+1 252 SpA Kyurem-White Secret Sword vs. 248 HP / 0- Def Kyurem-White: 484-570 (106.8 - 125.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO --> Imposter OHKOs you

This brings me back to my original post, if you do not have Sash intact you will not be able to beat Imposter which means that the set is a gimmick at best and heavily relies on Focus Sash to work. Additionally, even assuming you have a Sash intact, you still need to win the second Speed tie in order to KO the Imposter 46.9% of the time (the first turn wouldn't matter since you have Sash anyway). Literally the only situation where this gimmick MIGHT actually work is if the opponent goes hard into Imposter on your Quiver Dance, in which case it wouldn't get the +1 boost and you beat the Imposter 46.9% of the time IF you win the second Speed tie, and this is regardless of you having Sash or not! But even in that case you would only need the Focus Sash if the Imposter decides to use QD on the following turn when you use Secret Sword, which most of the time will not happen (which means that in this case, running Focus Sash isn't even correct). In conclusion, in the absolute ideal situation (which would almost never happen against good players) running Sash in the first place would be questionable. In the other situations the gimmick almost never works...

A typical scenario would go something like this (let's assume no hazards are up):

1. You bring KyuW in safely on a slow pivot against a wall that would definitely switch out (let's say Zygarde or Giratina)

2. Opponent goes hard into his KyuW answer (let's say something like RegenVest Solgaleo or Pgre) and you set up to +1

3. Let's say the opponent is now afraid and wants to scout your set, so he doesn't even stay in to use Spectral Thief and instead uses U-turn. You Obviously do not OHKO the Solgaleo/Pgre and you take some chip damage from the U-turn. Imposter comes in.

4. You do not OHKO the Imposter at +1, and even if you decided to QD again in the previous turn you would still not be able to OHKO the Imposter here. So the Imposter would survive this turn and you will be KOd since you no longer have a Sash.

+2 252 SpA Kyurem-White Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 0- Def Eviolite Kyurem-White: 430-506 (61 - 71.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 
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Champion Leon

Banned deucer.
+1 252 SpA Kyurem-White Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 0- Def Kyurem-White: 484-570 (68.7 - 80.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO --> you do not OHKO Imposter

+1 252 SpA Kyurem-White Secret Sword vs. 248 HP / 0- Def Kyurem-White: 484-570 (106.8 - 125.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO --> Imposter OHKOs you

This brings me back to my original post, if you do not have Sash intact you will not be able to beat Imposter which means that the set is a gimmick at best and heavily relies on Focus Sash to work. Additionally, even assuming you have a Sash intact, you still need to win the second Speed tie in order to KO the Imposter (the first turn wouldn't matter since you have Sash anyway). Literally the only situation where this gimmick would actually work is if the opponent goes hard into Imposter on your Quiver Dance, in which case it wouldn't get the +1 boost and you beat the Imposter. But even in that case you would only need the Focus Sash if the Imposter decides to use QD on the following turn when you use Secret Sword, which most of the time will not happen. In conclusion, in the absolute ideal situation (which would almost never happen against good players) running Sash in the first place would be questionable. In the other situations the gimmick doesn't work all of the time and often relies on 50-50s to win...
Does that include 0 IV Defenses too? (In addition to 0 EVs and - Defense nature).

*You forgot 1 key thing. If they switch in after I already set up, unless it is after I KOed something, then they are taking a hit on the switch in, since I would likely only need to set up once.
They would be KOed the next turn, while my Sash would guarantee my survival, and that is if they even win the Speed to begin with.

Also Shell smash seems to handle Imposter with a Secret Sword as a 1HKO, not only weakening their Defenses but boosting offense more.

All you have proven is Shell Smash might be better for handling Imposters, in cases where they send it safely in after KO, and they are going to faint from the stronger attack, while I am guaranteed to survive due to Focus Sash.
 
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You didn't specify minimizing defenses, originally, but any bit of chip damage jacks the set over, such as one of millions of stray U-Turns flitting about the meta. Even then, Focus Sash to OHKO Eviolite Chansey only works if you're running Shell Smash and even then you risk a speed tie for getting Kyu-W neutered and forced out. If you run Q.Dance, you lose, unless you managed to get four boosts first.

+2 252+ SpA Kyurem-White Secret Sword vs. -1 252 HP / 0- Def Eviolite Chansey: 712-838 (101.1 - 119%) -- guaranteed OHKO Shell Smash

+4 252+ SpA Kyurem-White Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 0- Def Eviolite Chansey: 706-832 (100.2 - 118.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO Q.Dance

This is all betting on the Imposter being the primary switch-in, however. Kyu-W doesn't attract Imposter by default, and they generally don't switch into Kyu-W's attacks because of Dragon weakness, but rather Steel-types like Solgaleo, who will more than likely not only survive a Secret Sword, but chip Kyu-W in the process, paving the way for the Imposter to not give a crap about Sash. It also attracts Gyarados, who's often Unaware these days and can face tank an unboosted Secret Sword I believe.


This is partly why Specs is better. It gives Kyu-W immense wall breaking capabilities without setting up, able to threaten usual checks right away, and lets it 50/50 the Imposter if necessary without gimmicks or lets it switch to a wall who'll take less damage than their walls from your Kyu-W (unless its Quantum and his Pikachu squad). Plus you can just throw the specs at a troublesome wall you can't break, like Soundproof Slowbro.

Or Scarf, which threatens pretty much all the offensive Pokemon and a number of walls still, especially with the threat of Trick.


I didn't read the whole back and forth and don't feel like it. I'm not arguing over niggling details like potential teammates or specific moves an opponent might make since the point is pretty clear any set-up Kyu-W set is going to need a lot more support and perform less consistently than a straight-up wall breaker. The meta has simply been too unfriendly to Kyu-W for set-up for a long time. The last time it was good was with Contrary Kyu-W in Gen V, where Imposter was rare because hello stall everywhere, Imposter couldn't switch-in anyway, it was actually one of the faster common Pokemon in the meta, and it could break most Unawares with an unboosted Draco Meteor. Something's gonna have to change for set-up Kyu-W to be a consistent threat right now.
 

morogrim

( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
Does that include 0 IV Defenses too? (In addition to 0 EVs and - Defense nature).

*You forgot 1 key thing. If they switch in after I already set up, unless it is after I KOed something, then they are taking a hit on the switch in, since I would likely only need to set up once.
They would be KOed the next turn, while my Sash would guarantee my survival, and that is if they even win the Speed to begin with.

Also Shell smash seems to handle Imposter with a Secret Sword as a 1HKO, not only weakening their Defenses but boosting offense more.

All you have proven is Shell Smash might be better for handling Imposters, in cases where they send it safely in after KO, and they are going to faint from the stronger attack, while I am guaranteed to survive due to Focus Sash.
Please read my post...and yes it is 0 Def IVs. You also cannot set up and do damage on the same turn...no player in the right mind would just let the KyuW set up and then go like "Oh this is looking like a threat let me switch something in..." I already described a typical scenario (which btw is an extremely favorable scenario for the KyuW user and still ends up failing a majority of the time) in the previous post.
 

Champion Leon

Banned deucer.
Okay, I wasn't saying 2 things in 1 turn.

I was mentioning most people send Imposter in after you have set up because they believe they can get the boosts, and survive with Eviolite.

That means you safely pivot to switch into something that will be forced out, such as slow U-turning Kyurem-W into Zygarde-Core, and setting up on their predicted switch. They will likely send in a Steel type because they want to resist both STABs. On their switch they will realize you are using a set up move and are not Choice Scarfed.
In this scenario, you can hit for Super Effective Damage with Secret Sword first, likely KOing them if you are using Shell Smash.

Then, feeling threatened, they will send in Imposter, hoping to survive due to a Eviolite and higher HP, and then use your own threat against your team.
If it is Shell Smash over Quiver Dance, you have KOed a Steel type, and now Imposter (Focus Sash guarantees your survival).
Suddenly, even if you have 1 HP, you have taken out 2 Pokémon. And that is if you lost the Speed tie, if you win, then you are at full health and at +2 Speed and +2 SpA, ready for a 3rd KO.

If they lack any remaining priority users, having 1 HP doesn't hinder you.

With Specs, you are locked into a move that may be resisted, based on their switch.
With Shell Smash, you are at +2, so even resisted moves would do as much as a neutral move, and you won't be resisted unless they have Aegislash because you can select your move and everything else coverage wise hits anything else for neutral so at +2 you are basically hitting anything Super Effectively, as you can select the strongest move.

Rumors:
You didn't specify minimizing defenses, originally, but any bit of chip damage jacks the set over, such as one of millions of stray U-Turns flitting about the meta. Even then, Focus Sash to OHKO Eviolite Chansey only works if you're running Shell Smash and even then you risk a speed tie for getting Kyu-W neutered and forced out. If you run Q.Dance, you lose, unless you managed to get four boosts first.

+2 252+ SpA Kyurem-White Secret Sword vs. -1 252 HP / 0- Def Eviolite Chansey: 712-838 (101.1 - 119%) -- guaranteed OHKO Shell Smash

+4 252+ SpA Kyurem-White Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 0- Def Eviolite Chansey: 706-832 (100.2 - 118.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO Q.Dance

This is all betting on the Imposter being the primary switch-in, however. Kyu-W doesn't attract Imposter by default, and they generally don't switch into Kyu-W's attacks because of Dragon weakness, but rather Steel-types like Solgaleo, who will more than likely not only survive a Secret Sword, but chip Kyu-W in the process, paving the way for the Imposter to not give a crap about Sash. It also attracts Gyarados, who's often Unaware these days and can face tank an unboosted Secret Sword I believe.

This is partly why Specs is better. It gives Kyu-W immense wall breaking capabilities without setting up, able to threaten usual checks right away, and lets it 50/50 the Imposter if necessary without gimmicks or lets it switch to a wall who'll take less damage than their walls from your Kyu-W (unless its Quantum and his Pikachu squad). Plus you can just throw the specs at a troublesome wall you can't break, like Soundproof Slowbro.

Or Scarf, which threatens pretty much all the offensive Pokemon and a number of walls still, especially with the threat of Trick.


I didn't read the whole back and forth and don't feel like it. I'm not arguing over niggling details like potential teammates or specific moves an opponent might make since the point is pretty clear any set-up Kyu-W set is going to need a lot more support and perform less consistently than a straight-up wall breaker. The meta has simply been too unfriendly to Kyu-W for set-up for a long time. The last time it was good was with Contrary Kyu-W in Gen V, where Imposter was rare because hello stall everywhere, Imposter couldn't switch-in anyway, it was actually one of the faster common Pokemon in the meta, and it could break most Unawares with an unboosted Draco Meteor. Something's gonna have to change for set-up Kyu-W to be a consistent threat right now.
Your calculations say Shell smash barely 1HKOed Imposter, but Morogrim's calculations show Eviolite Kyurem-W takes 80% from just a quiver Dance boosted Secret Sword.

Whose calculations are correct?

I want to ensure no one put a Regular Chansey with Eviolite, or a Regular Kyurem-W with Eviolite. It has to be Kyurem-W's Defenses and typing with Chansey's HP and Eviolite as the Imposter.

Also, why assume there would be entry hazards or chip damage on my side, but not on the Imposters?
 
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morogrim

( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
Okay, I wasn't saying 2 things in 1 turn.

I was mentioning most people send Imposter in after you have set up because they believe they can get the boosts, and survive with Eviolite.

That means you safely pivot to switch into something that will be forced out, such as slow U-turning Kyurem-W into Zygarde-Core, and setting up on their predicted switch. They will likely send in a Steel type because they want to resist both STABs. On their switch they will realize you are using a set up move and are not Choice Scarfed.
In this scenario, you can hit for Super Effective Damage with Secret Sword first, hopefully KOing them depending on which Steel they use.

Then, feeling threatened, they will send in Imposter, hoping to survive due to a Eviolite and higher HP.
If it is Shell Smash over Quiver Dance, you have KOed a Steel type, and now Imposter (Focus Sash guarantees your survival).
Suddenly, even if you have 1 HP, you have taken out 2 Pokémon.
With Specs, you are locked into a move that may be resisted. With Shell Smash, you are at +2, so even resisted moves would do as much as a neutral move, and you won't be resisted unless they have Aegislash because you can select your move and everything else hits anything else for neutral so at +2 you are basically hitting anything Super Effectively.
Even at +1, Secret Sword does not OHKO Registeel. You still haven't read the post. Even with Shell Smash, in the same scenario (so once again assuming the Solgaleo/Pgre don't use Spectral Thief and pivot out instead), it's still a 50% chance to OHKO the Imposter on top of a 50-50 to win the Speed tie (and even with a +SpA nature it's still a 50-50 for the Speed tie). So once again the gimmick fails most of the time, even with Shell Smash (in the best case scenario!)...and this is in a situation where the opponent could've easily just used Spectral Thief instead of pivot and ended the gimmick right then and there.

Edit: Did the calcs again, Rumors had the correct calcs. Edited the posts accordingly. These corrected calcs are actually less in your favor now...

+2 252 SpA Kyurem-White Secret Sword vs. -1 252 HP / 0- Def Eviolite Kyurem-White: 646-762 (91.7 - 108.2%) -- 50% chance to OHKO --> for +Spe nature

+2 252+ SpA Kyurem-White Secret Sword vs. -1 252 HP / 0- Def Eviolite Kyurem-White: 712-838 (101.1 - 119%) -- guaranteed OHKO --> for +SpA nature
 
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Champion Leon

Banned deucer.
Even at +1, Secret Sword does not OHKO Registeel. You still haven't read the post. Even with Shell Smash, in the same scenario (so once again assuming the Solgaleo/Pgre don't use Spectral Thief and pivot out instead), it's still a 50-50 to win the Speed tie (in this case it's a guaranteed KO instead of 50% chance since the Imposter has -1 Def from Shell Smash). So once again the gimmick fails half of the time, even with Shell Smash (in the best case scenario!)...and this is in a situation where the opponent could've easily just used Spectral Thief instead of pivot and ended the gimmick right then and there.
I did read your post, I know you mentioned PKyogre and Solgaleo, but I'm also considering other Steel types such as Registeel.
Anyways, I did the damage calculations and I see that they do survive, especially with Assault Vest.
If people think Core Enforcer isn't useful enough, they could also use Bolt Strike for Kyogre (Shell Smash boosts Attack), or Blue Flare/Precipice Blades for Steel-types.

I see your point, I am assuming Shell Smash.
 
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Kyurem-W is to break walls, not sweep. If I was looking for a sweeper I'd choose gengar or diancie since they're frail anyways. Kyurem-W however has enough bulk to live some fairly strong attacks as you can see. What makes him useful for me is the immediate strength of Boomburst, not the competition for a place as a sweeper. Steels are tricky and require clever counterplay regardless of what you run.
 

Champion Leon

Banned deucer.
Kyurem-W is to break walls, not sweep. If I was looking for a sweeper I'd choose gengar or diancie since they're frail anyways. Kyurem-W however has enough bulk to live some fairly strong attacks as you can see. What makes him useful for me is the immediate strength of Boomburst, not the competition for a place as a sweeper. Steels are tricky and require clever counterplay regardless of what you run.
If it can hit harder after a Shell Smash, and select moves, wouldn't it be able to break walls better than just a Specs set/Scarf set?

I know the goal of the original sets, but was wondering if the set-up had any merit, considering we have seen worse get away with set up moves.
 
If it can hit harder after a Shell Smash, and select moves, wouldn't it be able to break walls better than just a Specs set/Scarf set?

I know the goal of the original sets, but was wondering if the set-up had any merit, considering we have seen worse get away with set up moves.
Pretty much anything with decent stats and typing can be a sash smash sweeper, Kyurem-W just doesn't have much to make him a better choice than others like ray and yveltal only being affected by rocks. He can do it but so can almost everyone else
 

Champion Leon

Banned deucer.
Pretty much anything with decent stats and typing can be a sash smash sweeper, Kyurem-W just doesn't have much to make him a better choice than others like ray and yveltal only being affected by rocks. He can do it but so can almost everyone else
But Ice is arguably the selling point, scaring Dragons, Flying, etc. types and hitting most non-Steels for at least neutral. Flying has good neutral coverage, but Ice hits more super effectively.

Heck, Kyurem-W scares out the 2 Pokémon you mentioned, and the selling point is that people predict you will have a choice item, then become surprised when you set up.

It just seems if others can be promoted with Shell, why not K-W? It can basically check or counter Kyogre-Primal, Rayquaza-Mega, Yveltal, Zekrom, Zygarde-Core, and other common top tier Pokémon.
 
I'm currently experimenting with Defiant PDon to punish all those parting shots, defogs and strength saps. My current set is the following:
Pele (Groudon-Primal) (F) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Precipice Blades
- Switcheroo
- Shore Up
- Toxic

(its nickname "Pele" comes from a hawaiian volcano goddess)

and it is improofed by a levitating Aegislash, as Fur Coat Giratina takes too much damage after it gets one Defiant boost. However, In my opinion, it is kinda suboptimal, I would like to run V-create over switcheroo (toxic is for those fur coat mons which always switch into groudon and wall it unless they go for a defog) or maybe toxic, and Prankster on my Aegislash - but the problem is that even at +3, it doesn´t OHKO an imposter with eviolite. With a band, i would have enough power for the OHKO at +3, but would be outsped by +spe Pogres and obviously any faster mon and have to win the speed tie against the imposter.

Can this be improved somehow, to for example ensure the OHKO on the imposter after getting to +3 attack from a parting shot (as parting shot into imposter is very likely to happen), without having to risk the speed tie or is it possible to improof groudon with 1k arrws (to not longer be walled by flying types) and maybe v-create? Or is Groudon not an optimal mon for defiant?
 

RNGIsFatal

Banned deucer.
I'm currently experimenting with Defiant PDon to punish all those parting shots, defogs and strength saps. My current set is the following:
Pele (Groudon-Primal) (F) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Precipice Blades
- Switcheroo
- Shore Up
- Toxic

(its nickname "Pele" comes from a hawaiian volcano goddess)

and it is improofed by a levitating Aegislash, as Fur Coat Giratina takes too much damage after it gets one Defiant boost. However, In my opinion, it is kinda suboptimal, I would like to run V-create over switcheroo (toxic is for those fur coat mons which always switch into groudon and wall it unless they go for a defog) or maybe toxic, and Prankster on my Aegislash - but the problem is that even at +3, it doesn´t OHKO an imposter with eviolite. With a band, i would have enough power for the OHKO at +3, but would be outsped by +spe Pogres and obviously any faster mon and have to win the speed tie against the imposter.

Can this be improved somehow, to for example ensure the OHKO on the imposter after getting to +3 attack from a parting shot (as parting shot into imposter is very likely to happen), without having to risk the speed tie or is it possible to improof groudon with 1k arrws (to not longer be walled by flying types) and maybe v-create? Or is Groudon not an optimal mon for defiant?
I have seen SuperSkyLake experimenting with Defiant Primal Groudon once, and it threatens even Fur Coat Giratina after Defiant boost:

+3 252+ Atk Groudon-Primal Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Giratina: 219-258 (43.4 - 51.1%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

+3 is relevant because Primal Groudon will reach such boost after taking Parting Shot, from which -1 Atk leads to +2 Atk and -1 SpAtk leads to +2 SpAtk.

But this means imposterproofing will be tough too, and most Unaware users who can try handling this Pdon, which Gyarados and Audino, will have trouble taking consecutive Precipice Blades from 180+ Atk 'mon. I would say Unaware Zygarde (which is better than Unaware Giratina due to being neutral to Moongeist Beam, meaning it will have some use outsides imposterproofing) is the best way to stop that set.

Also, SSL used Sticky Web support, which not only helps Primal Groudon outspeed more threats but also lets his own Pdon abuse it when it has been bounced back. The game against him was one of the few games when my Fur Coat Giratina had trouble with physically-oriented Primal Groudon.

Conclusively, I like your creativity, but I don't think the set will have much viability, and being locked into Toxic as Primal Groudon is pretty terrible IMO, because it completely gets rid of Pdon's offensive presence. Also the walls you aim with this set, namely Zygarde-C and Giratina, have Core Enforcer that rids your ability which is the main purpose of the set.
 

Lcass4919

The Xatu Warrior
I'm currently experimenting with Defiant PDon to punish all those parting shots, defogs and strength saps. My current set is the following:
Pele (Groudon-Primal) (F) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Precipice Blades
- Switcheroo
- Shore Up
- Toxic

(its nickname "Pele" comes from a hawaiian volcano goddess)

and it is improofed by a levitating Aegislash, as Fur Coat Giratina takes too much damage after it gets one Defiant boost. However, In my opinion, it is kinda suboptimal, I would like to run V-create over switcheroo (toxic is for those fur coat mons which always switch into groudon and wall it unless they go for a defog) or maybe toxic, and Prankster on my Aegislash - but the problem is that even at +3, it doesn´t OHKO an imposter with eviolite. With a band, i would have enough power for the OHKO at +3, but would be outsped by +spe Pogres and obviously any faster mon and have to win the speed tie against the imposter.

Can this be improved somehow, to for example ensure the OHKO on the imposter after getting to +3 attack from a parting shot (as parting shot into imposter is very likely to happen), without having to risk the speed tie or is it possible to improof groudon with 1k arrws (to not longer be walled by flying types) and maybe v-create? Or is Groudon not an optimal mon for defiant?
you can run poison heal yveltal over leviblade, which provides more utility, frees up a slot for solgaleo/registeel, and helps check gengar. (you could run something like primal seas rayquaza for ground/fire coverage, with hurricane spam, but memey.)
 
I'm currently experimenting with Defiant PDon to punish all those parting shots, defogs and strength saps. My current set is the following:
Pele (Groudon-Primal) (F) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Precipice Blades
- Switcheroo
- Shore Up
- Toxic

(its nickname "Pele" comes from a hawaiian volcano goddess)

and it is improofed by a levitating Aegislash, as Fur Coat Giratina takes too much damage after it gets one Defiant boost. However, In my opinion, it is kinda suboptimal, I would like to run V-create over switcheroo (toxic is for those fur coat mons which always switch into groudon and wall it unless they go for a defog) or maybe toxic, and Prankster on my Aegislash - but the problem is that even at +3, it doesn´t OHKO an imposter with eviolite. With a band, i would have enough power for the OHKO at +3, but would be outsped by +spe Pogres and obviously any faster mon and have to win the speed tie against the imposter.

Can this be improved somehow, to for example ensure the OHKO on the imposter after getting to +3 attack from a parting shot (as parting shot into imposter is very likely to happen), without having to risk the speed tie or is it possible to improof groudon with 1k arrws (to not longer be walled by flying types) and maybe v-create? Or is Groudon not an optimal mon for defiant?
You can improof with Primordial Sea Celesteela (with scald) and then run the marginally better set of:

Groudon-Primal @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- V-create
- Precipice Blades
- Sunsteel Strike
- Trick

Regarding imposter matchup, use a trapper like Gengar or Thousand Waves Zygod etc, to remove it. Besides that your only other option would be to run spikes + SR support to achieve this calc:
+3 252+ Atk Groudon-Primal Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Chansey: 518-612 (73.5 - 86.9%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes
(i'm just gonna assume parting shot gives +3 with defiant)

- and of course hope you hit. I'm not sure defiant Groudon is really the bees-knees. You're better off running desoland/tinted lens or their ilk.

e: removed positive natured def chansey calc
 
I'm currently experimenting with Defiant PDon to punish all those parting shots, defogs and strength saps.
Contrary is better in most scenarios.

You get;
+1 Atk / SpA form parting Shot
+1 Evasion from Defog
+1 Atk from Sap Strengh
+1 Speed on Sticky Web

I know Defiant gives more flat out damage but V-Create is just made for Contrary sets and P-Don is best at it.
Yes the boosts can get stolen but same goes for Defiant,

I have seen some Spectral Thief Deo-A today, and with scarf you are unlikely to go sweeping,
which is the goal of offensive boosting.
 

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