BH Balanced Hackmons Central Resources

[Rumors]

Looking over things more, curious on two things...

What brings Ferrothorn up to B rank this Gen? Very little seems to have changed for it and, through the entirety of last generation, it languished in D rank, even when it was around to potentially check Kyo-P. Any damaging Fire-attack still makes it cry, Primal Groudon isn't banned, and Mega-Ray's Boomburst still blows through its defenses. Is resistance to Sunsteel and outslowing Core Enforcer such huge boons to bring it up from D to B? Other than that, I guess it walls Solgaleo as a new thing, but Solgaleo isn't playing offense at least most of the time anyway.


Similar question for Deo-A, which is listed as A rank. It was at its strongest last Gen when EV limit was in place and it had access to Protean, allowing it to just nuke stuff and semi-Imposter-proof itself without even touching a set-up move and could run whatever coverage it wanted. And it was D rank and, if I remember right, got kicked to Unranked once Protean was banned. Are APS/Psychic Surge sets that much more potent than Protean was? Especially with no EV-limit so, combined with much weaker coverage, its missing out on a lot of OHKOs Protean could get. I get that means Galvanate can't Fakespeed all over it, but it still needs a lot of support in order to get in without taking 1 HP of damage, which is especially tricky when outslowing is becoming so popular people are running sub-level 100 to do it. Plus, its still forced into a Focus Sash and, if not APS, it's still checked by Caterpie with a Focus Sash running priority*.

*252+ Atk Caterpie Leech Life vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Deoxys-Attack: 218-258 (71.7 - 84.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Caterpie Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Deoxys-Attack: 73-86 (24 - 28.2%) -- 94.1% chance to 4HKO

So, what changed for these two that I'm missing?

 

[Quantum Tesseract]

Looking over things more, curious on two things...

What brings Ferrothorn up to B rank this Gen? Very little seems to have changed for it and, through the entirety of last generation, it languished in D rank, even when it was around to potentially check Kyo-P. Any damaging Fire-attack still makes it cry, Primal Groudon isn't banned, and Mega-Ray's Boomburst still blows through its defenses. Is resistance to Sunsteel and outslowing Core Enforcer such huge boons to bring it up from D to B? Other than that, I guess it walls Solgaleo as a new thing, but Solgaleo isn't playing offense at least most of the time anyway.


Similar question for Deo-A, which is listed as A rank. It was at its strongest last Gen when EV limit was in place and it had access to Protean, allowing it to just nuke stuff and semi-Imposter-proof itself without even touching a set-up move and could run whatever coverage it wanted. And it was D rank and, if I remember right, got kicked to Unranked once Protean was banned. Are APS/Psychic Surge sets that much more potent than Protean was? Especially with no EV-limit so, combined with much weaker coverage, its missing out on a lot of OHKOs Protean could get. I get that means Galvanate can't Fakespeed all over it, but it still needs a lot of support in order to get in without taking 1 HP of damage, which is especially tricky when outslowing is becoming so popular people are running sub-level 100 to do it. Plus, its still forced into a Focus Sash and, if not APS, it's still checked by Caterpie with a Focus Sash running priority*.

*252+ Atk Caterpie Leech Life vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Deoxys-Attack: 218-258 (71.7 - 84.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Caterpie Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Deoxys-Attack: 73-86 (24 - 28.2%) -- 94.1% chance to 4HKO

So, what changed for these two that I'm missing?

Ferrothorn checks three top threats rn; Primal Kyogre, Regigigas, and Chansey. Thanks to the greater mixed bulk and anchor shot, it also does better versus threats like MMY, but the real godsend for it is corr enforcer. This, alongside its low speed, means its no longer switchin bait when it forces a mon out, and lets it still check all Ph users reliable.

 

[motherlove]

Worth mentioning that spore immunity means it can more easily run shed shell which is quite nice.

But yeah both of them should go lower, ferrothorn's boost is quite disappointing and it's often hard to justify running it over dialga. Deo-a was up because of psysurge pre ev limit and we kinda dropped it after but not too much thinking it would still get some use. Which it didn't.

 

[Halliday]

Giratina: A+ -> S

I honestly think this beast should have S-rank. It is, other than Zygarde, by far the most popular wall in BH, and for an extremely good reason. The FC set is nearly untouchable by physical attackers, doing things like tanking belly drum'd power trips from Yveltal to phase it out, and that's just one set. It's biggest advantage as a wall is that unlike Zygarde, it doesn't have the brutal 4x Ice weakness, which means that it's a lot harder for random mons to slap on a move that can OHKO it. Its typing is also extremely good even not considering that, resisting 6 types, and having two immunities (including a nice immunity to rapid spin, which is seeing a resurgence with the popularity of regenvest Solgaleo).

 

[RNGIsFatal]

I wanted to express my opinions further.

What I agree with other people (since I agree I made it very concise)

Hide

A+ -> S- (TBK p much said everything I was going to)

C -> D (Typing is just awful and it is too passive)

A -> A+ (Even more threatening after EV limit removal, now Steel-types are the only reliable switch-ins)

A- -> B (Already a Spectral Thief bait before EV limit removal, and now doesn't even OHKO or 2HKO stuff it used to. The only niche now is OHKOing its own Imposter)

Onto my own.

S -> A+
It is the same Primal, but after the ban of Water Bubble and EV limit removal, it is very reliant on boosts have enough raw power to sweep. Poison Heal sets are not that powerful until it has accumulated enough boosts with Quiver Dance, and it is immediately shut down by Core Enforcer and Spectral Thief. Unlike Primal Groudon, this whale does not have devastatingly offensive presence to force out switches, and single Water-type is not the best typing for offense. I believe 95+% of the variants of Primal Kyogre I see in my regular ladder has Poison Heal or Fur Coat. Poison Heal, as I mentioned, is reliant on stat boosts which this metagame with Core Enforcer and Spectral Thief spam makes it hard, and Fur Coat sets are somewhat passive outsides using Steam Eruption which has only 8 pp, and this shortens Pogre's overall longevity during the match which is not appreciated as a 'mon when it is used as a defensive wall. But Scarf set is somewhat effective and a surprise factor, and since it is not crappy as Greninja-Ash Poison Heal should is a threat regardless of aforementioned checking moves, so I would say this whale stays some high place in vr but not in S, it doesn't define the metagame anymore.

C -> D
Followed by Greninja-Ash, Palkia has been victimized by the ban of Water Bubble. It's Water-typing, x4 resistance to Water-type moves is now inefficient outsides Water Bubble meta, and offensively it is outclassed by Primal Kyogre except it has an access to STAB Core Enforcer, which is not efficient on Palkia with 100 Speed. Stakeout sets are hard to imposterproof unless you use stuff like Water Absorb Xerneas and it is just awful. Even Reshiram in D rank can do the same stuff by equipping Stakeout and having Flash Fire Xerneas in the team. Unlike Primal Kyogre, the unfortunate Dragon-typing commonly forces Palkia out often against common threats such as Mega Ray or Diancie, and Poison Heal sets are now just awful under the meta where Core Enforcer is prevalent.

C -> D
I am not going to lie. I have not seen this 'mon used over 1500 ladder. It is way too frail and even after EV limits being gone, it is still reliant on Focus Sash to take hits. It will end up wasting a turn if the Spore is blocked by Safety Goggles, and hazards are easily cleaned up in this metagame where everything has an access to Rapid Spin and Defog. Seriously, this is not Ubers metagame. Any support 'mons and RegenVest can clean hazards up right away. Deoxys-S is reliant on having Giratina as fat spinblocker or Shadow Tag Gengar to punish anyone using Defog or Rapid Spin. Being reliant on those 'mons for Deoxys-S to fulfill its duty as a suicide lead doesn't prove anything about its viability; it is just another piece of evidence that proves viability of Giratina and Gengarite by exemplifying one of the usages by relating to Deoxys-S. The only niche this thing has is a suicide lead in the hyper-offensive teams.

Unranked -> D
This thing has lost dominant presence and fell to very low usage thanks to Sunsteel Strike and Moongeist Beam. However, since all of us still have to prepare a switch-in for this 'mon, it deserves a rank imo.

 

[Halliday]

Unranked -> D
This thing has lost dominant presence and fell to very low usage thanks to Sunsteel Strike and Moongeist Beam. However, since all of us still have to prepare a switch-in for this 'mon, it deserves a rank imo.

I think it's also worth mentioning that it got a slight buff this gen in protective pads, which allow it to not worry about rocky helmet as much anymore. (don't get me wrong, overall it was nerfed, but this was a positive for it)

 

[Deleted User 91486]

I think a Sash or a Lum Berry is still the better choice for Shed. With a Sash, it can kill even a Sunsteel/Moongeist user with Endeavor + Priority, and with a Lum Berry it doesn't have to worry about burn and poison.

 

[Ren]

Sash activates before Sturdy so people can U Turn/Volt Switch out of the Shed and break the Sash and Lum Berry is either a one time use or forces you to run Recycle. Protective Pads grants you more freedom in that you can dodge Spiky Shield or Rocky Helmet which is still relevant, since people like to get chip damage on a lot of shit that makes contact. In my opinion, I wouldn't even consider running Sash on a non Magic Guard set - It's just too risky that anyone good will U Turn out. That isn't to say that dodging Moldy Pursuit once or not dropping to a single Sunsteel isn't nice, but with how easily the Sash is broken, it's honestly better to run some form of scouting to see what they're doing, like Imposter Chans or even Handful Bunker so you can poison opposing Chaney while they can't poison you, again due to Protective Pads.

Not that anyone should send Chansey in on Shedinja anyways, as they're almost always self Improof, but it's still a nice bonus.

Also Shed in Gen 7 LUL someone had to make the joke

 

[Rumors]

Didn't even notice Shed was missing. Even if its performing poorly this Gen, you still have to make sure you carry something for it or it'll hard wall your team and potentially 2HKO it all as well. It deserves to be ranked somewhere if just because of that.

 

[Champion Leon]

Sash activates before Sturdy so people can U Turn/Volt Switch out of the Shed and break the Sash and Lum Berry is either a one time use or forces you to run Recycle. Protective Pads grants you more freedom in that you can dodge Spiky Shield or Rocky Helmet which is still relevant, since people like to get chip damage on a lot of shit that makes contact. In my opinion, I wouldn't even consider running Sash on a non Magic Guard set - It's just too risky that anyone good will U Turn out. That isn't to say that dodging Moldy Pursuit once or not dropping to a single Sunsteel isn't nice, but with how easily the Sash is broken, it's honestly better to run some form of scouting to see what they're doing, like Imposter Chans or even Handful Bunker so you can poison opposing Chaney while they can't poison you, again due to Protective Pads.

Not that anyone should send Chansey in on Shedinja anyways, as they're almost always self Improof, but it's still a nice bonus.

Also Shed in Gen 7 LUL someone had to make the joke

You could use Misty Surge/Safeguard to cover status concerns, just like switching out a Psychic Surge Pokémon to protect from priority on a teammate.

Misty Surge is surprisingly effective especially on a Prankster Nature Power user.

Shedinja is only meant to be in for a few turns anyways, so this gives Protective Pads more use so that Shedinja can focus on protecting itself from other threats.

 

[motherlove]

Hey, so the issue I've seen brought up here and in other places the most was that the current S rank isn't really representative of the current meta. Primal Groudon and Chansey are generally agreed to be the strongest forces in balanced hackmons but other mons have been subject to debate. I think that's currently the biggest issue in the VR and there doesn't seem to be a clear common consensus on theses mons besides that it's not super right.
I know you're all eager to submit the changes you think are due, and it's cool, in fact the activity is quite nice to see. But some of the smaller, less important changes are driving the discussion away from this main problem.

For now I'd love if we could focus the discussion on the higher ranks, more precisely Primal Kyogre, Rayquaza-Mega, Mewtwo-Mega-Y, Zygarde-Complete and Giratina.

Zygarde-Mega and Giratina are extremely similar in role and while Zygarde was originally preferred for its higher bulk on both sides, Giratina manages to stay one of the greatest walls in the meta with a few niche abilities that Zygarde lacks. In short:

- HIGHER BULK ON BOTH SIDES
- Slower than the crowded base 90 speed
- Typing is neutral to Power Trip, Knock Off and Ghost Type move

- NO X4 WEAKNESSES
- SpinBlocker
- Immunity to trapping (most notably Gengar)
- Water resist and Normal resist makes it better against common set-up sweepers

Mega Mewtwo Y has lost a bit of stature in the full EV meta, its ability to hit on the weaker defence of the opponent via Psystrike / Psycho Boost is no longer as relevant as walls can invest on both sides. MMY ends up hitting generally everything not as hard as it use to and is therefor much more manageable. On top of that MMY now relies a lot more on its item to do damage which means dazzling setup sets paired with sash are noticeably less common.

Rayquaza-Mega while similarly to MMY, struggles more to break past neutral walls as they now fully invest in their defences. That added to the fact that Core Enforcer has become one of the most common defensive moves in the meta which means Rayquaza while suffer heavy repercussion if it finds itself unable to score and OHKO and will often be forced to switch out, means Rayquaza has lost a bit of steam in the full EV meta.
To add to that, the comparison with Primal Groudon is often made as Rayquaza doesn't posses the fantastic defensive capabilities that Groudon has.

Kyogre-Primal, setup sets are usually not immediately threatening, and has become much easier to check with the new core enforcer mechanic (discovered that it ignored sub). Added to that is the fact that offensive mons now have their defences maxed out which means Kyogre typically needs more boosts than it use to to achieve the same result. Overall Kyogre is not as strong of a wincon as it use to be.


Anyway it's not a vote or anything, I'll just like the discussion to be a bit more focused until a common consensus emerges.

Other things that haven't been forgotten

Mega Diancie: Rise
Gengar (regular): Rise
Deoxys-a: Drop
Xerneas: Rise
Lugia: Drop
Ferrothorn: Drop
Palkia: Drop
Deoxys-s: Drop
Shedinja: Rank somewhere
Xurkitree: Rank somewhere
Nihilego: rank somewhere

I didn't read this again, if I said anything stupid then sorry, but I probably didn't because I'm literally figuratively a god.

 

[Lcass4919]

as a avid shedinja user...im torn on if we should seriously add it onto the rankings. moongeist and sunsteel are some of the scariest moves for sheddy to take. it means that shedinja has to be weary of its usual problems (status, hazards, residual damage) while ALSO being scared of random "lol u ded" moves. this makes shedinja INCREDIBLY HARD to use. like, im well known for my shed stall tactics, and i LOVE the bug, and the fact that IM debating against sheddys rank is a setement on how i feel. shedinja in this meta requires MORE teambuilding, MORE caution and REQUIRES you to have a chansey to scout movesets. on top of this, shedinja is REALLY hard pressed on an item for this gen, personally ive been loving sash+recycle as it lets me tank a moongeist and KO mons that people typically dont think they have to fear sheddy with. but of course, that leaves sheddy with a status, weather, helm, and ghost weakness.

with this in mind, i will agree to putting sheddy to D rank. just because its not a detriment to the team anymore. what do i mean? well, with the inclusion of moongeist and sunsteel, whats a common shed counter that has died down? mold breaker pursuit thats what. the fact that people no longer have the need to run the "instant killer" on shedinja REALLY helps shedinja carve its niche. albeit i think for sheddy to have a role, focus sash is a MUST just so it can secure a kill on teams that just spam moongeist+sunsteel, which at least 3 mons on a team run it. just remember that sash breaks on any hit, so even if they dont moongeist you, your sash will break, so try not to use sheddy recklessly.
on top of this, since moongeist and sunsteel exist, hazards and status spreaders have become a LOT less common, still seen, but its a visible difference from last gen.

do i think sheddy is the god like last gen? hell fucking no. its a joke how hard it is to use now.

do i think shedinja is worth using? yes. shedinja isnt like niche picks like...blaziken or gardevoir, its niche is one only it has, and even if theres a "Dead stop" move commonly ran to deal with it, shedinja still has utility no other mon can bring: the ability to wall, pivot, sweep and wallbreak all in one slot. it just requires a brain to pull it off now. nbd. the ironic thing is, last gen i was against using sheddy offensively/walling and instead use it as a pivot...but now this meta basically BEGS the bug to get some kills and block hits. what a twist

 

[SuperSkylake]

Finally I can post my thoughts here now that I have an actual comp:

I think that the s rank is a bit saturated at the moment and some of the stuff should move down to a+ rank. For me that would mostly be zygarde-c just because of that nasty 4x ice weakness, which makes it easier to lure in and 2hKO. Its bulk is so good that nothing short of a choice specs special ice move can ohko it from full though, which is notable. It also does not take dragon and Fairy attacks very wel which means that it must be paired with a bulky Steel to create a defensive core. Giratina has comparable weaknesses but also more key resistances; the water and fighting resists are both really nice on it, and the 2x ice weakness is far more manageable than Zygard-c's 4x. I'd swap Giratina's and Zygarde's places, if it were me, I think

Primal Kyogre, as others have said, is a bit passive and once you know what item it's running, its surprise value is gone. It's a very tanky defensive pivot, but it is still passive, and Core Enforcer really keeps it in line by cutting off what recovery it has or weakening it to the point where another wall can take its stab moves.

Mega audino should probably be ranked a bit lower, perhaps at b+. Its bulk just isn't what it used to be, and it has only a small handful of resistances. It's usually added on to imposterproof something or as a general magic bounce user, but as the power creeps higher and higher it struggles to avoid 2hKOs from offensive mons now. It can't even run PH sets sas effectively because of how passive they are, and passivity is more heavily punished than ever before. Most people run magic bounce or unaware audino,, and against super strong mixed contrary users like Rayquaza, those can easily break past it. Add to that that it's hit supereffectively by Sunsteel strike which just ignores the ability anyway, and it's just not as good as it used to be. Zygarde-C and mega Gyarados are both better at Unaware, as they can take any one hit from any unaware user and steal the boosts. AV regen sets do an okay job of forcing out MMY and Deoxys-A, while its 155 attack stat allows it to pull of a simple smash powertrip set decently while bluffing something else, which is somethign Yveltal usually does. For this reason I'd shift Gyara up to A+ rank.

Kyurem-b probably deserves at least a- rank as it can deal serious damage to higher-ranked threats. Mega Rayquaza is beaten by its Ice STAB if it doesn't already have a +3 boosted priority Oblivion wing; Zygarde-C falls to Ice moves no matter its ability; Steel-types and Groudon-p die to Ground coverage; Kyogre-p takes 85%+ from bolt Strike unless it's running Fur Coat. Kyu-b can also Imposterproof itself with Frustration sets. So it's defeinitely deserving of a better rank, in my opinion.

 

[Lcass4919]

Finally I can post my thoughts here now that I have an actual comp:

I think that the s rank is a bit saturated at the moment and some of the stuff should move down to a+ rank. For me that would mostly be zygarde-c just because of that nasty 4x ice weakness, which makes it easier to lure in and 2hKO. Its bulk is so good that nothing short of a choice specs special ice move can ohko it from full though, which is notable. It also does not take dragon and Fairy attacks very wel which means that it must be paired with a bulky Steel to create a defensive core. Giratina has comparable weaknesses but also more key resistances; the water and fighting resists are both really nice on it, and the 2x ice weakness is far more manageable than Zygard-c's 4x. I'd swap Giratina's and Zygarde's places, if it were me, I think

Primal Kyogre, as others have said, is a bit passive and once you know what item it's running, its surprise value is gone. It's a very tanky defensive pivot, but it is still passive, and Core Enforcer really keeps it in line by cutting off what recovery it has or weakening it to the point where another wall can take its stab moves.

Mega audino should probably be ranked a bit lower, perhaps at b+. Its bulk just isn't what it used to be, and it has only a small handful of resistances. It's usually added on to imposterproof something or as a general magic bounce user, but as the power creeps higher and higher it struggles to avoid 2hKOs from offensive mons now. It can't even run PH sets sas effectively because of how passive they are, and passivity is more heavily punished than ever before. Most people run magic bounce or unaware audino,, and against super strong mixed contrary users like Rayquaza, those can easily break past it. Add to that that it's hit supereffectively by Sunsteel strike which just ignores the ability anyway, and it's just not as good as it used to be. Zygarde-C and mega Gyarados are both better at Unaware, as they can take any one hit from any unaware user and steal the boosts. AV regen sets do an okay job of forcing out MMY and Deoxys-A, while its 155 attack stat allows it to pull of a simple smash powertrip set decently while bluffing something else, which is somethign Yveltal usually does. For this reason I'd shift Gyara up to A+ rank.

Kyurem-b probably deserves at least a- rank as it can deal serious damage to higher-ranked threats. Mega Rayquaza is beaten by its Ice STAB if it doesn't already have a +3 boosted priority Oblivion wing; Zygarde-C falls to Ice moves no matter its ability; Steel-types and Groudon-p die to Ground coverage; Kyogre-p takes 85%+ from bolt Strike unless it's running Fur Coat. Kyu-b can also Imposterproof itself with Frustration sets. So it's defeinitely deserving of a better rank, in my opinion.

tbch, i think the fact that ice moves are being used is a sentiment on why zygarde is S ranked, because i think water and electric types are the only two types that are not "losing coverage" by running ice. on top of that, mons like groudon dispise being locked into an ice move, as it allows a lot of common pokemon like regigigas, kyogre, and steel types like solgaleo and registeel to come in and set up or set hazards. i think S is a good spot for it now because although ice coverage is a HUGE issue for it, the fact that mons who dont WANT to run the move HAVE to just to deal with it is a sentiment of its power. and two of its three sets (regenvest and fur coat) all can tank 1 ice move if caught off guard, while PH tends to run wishpass with spiky shield. and on top of this, if you look at all the really top tier common walls/tanks, kyogre, registeel, solgaleo, groudon, etc, a lot of them can tank incoming ice coverage moves, meaning not only does zygarde have good walling skills on its own, its only boosted further when you take into account teambuilding. ice coverage is the bane of zygardes existance...but ice coverage is also restrictive on its own. from my experience, i feel that zygardes ice weakness is counterbalanced with this in mind. thus, not a lot of people run ice coverage on the mons zygarde actually wants to fight. (ive seen z-crystal freeze shock groudon,but otherwise its been pretty rare) since groudon wants choice band/scarf, and as i mentioned, just gives kyogre(a mon you DONT want setting up) to get free boosts. being caught off guard is always a pain, but technically speaking, groudon can catch fur coat tina off guard by just running light of ruin, its just something to look out for. dramatic example, but you know what i mean :p

of course, im not saying "UR OPINION IS SHIT" or anything, and i can totally see your point on why thats reasonable for zyggod to drop. after all, a "Autokill button" for walls is never a good thing. im just stating how i feel on the matter.

 

[Champion Leon]

Im surprised the Mega-Lati twins are not ever acknowledged. I know the nerf to Soul Dew hurt, but Latios has Special Attack and Speed equal to Diancie-Mega, while sporting key resistances to Fire, Water, Fighting, Psychic, as well as Grass and Electric, and can take advantage of Simple for STAB Stored Power sets, or mixed Contrarian sets coming off of STAB Draco Meteor/Psychoo Boost, while having just enough Attack to take advantage of V-Create and threaten Kartana, Solgaleo, Magearna, Magic Bounce Registeel/Aegislash, etc. without sacrificing its coverage options.

Latias-Mega's 150 SpD with Assault Vest allow it to switch into things that Kyogre-Primal cannot such as Psychoo Boost under Psychic Terrain from Mewtwo-Y, Galvanize Boomburst, etc. Further, defensive abilities like Fur Coat mitigate its lower 80 HP and 120 Defense stat, to take advantage of its higher Speed and key typing, while being able to pivot for the team.

Yes, it is weak to Moongeist Beam, Power Trip, and Core Enforcer, but if Yveltal/Gyarados sets up for Power Trip, Kyogre won't be surviving that either, and Core Enforcer ruins it's Poison Heal, and forces it to switch anyway. While Primal-Kyogre has less weaknesses, it also has less resistances, and a significantly lower Defense stat at just 90. Plus Latias-Mega can handle physical Fighting moves like Contrary Mewtwo's Superpower, Galvanize Zekrom (it resists Fake-Speed and outspeeds it to KO for the Dragon move), and of course Psystrike off of Psychic Terrain MMY.

The twins just need to maximize their sets with the right movesets to ensure they can keep up in the metagame, I say rank them as D. They can pivot, set up to sweep, or serve as key defensive Pokémon (Latias).

They can also Imposter resist by selecting a Judgement + Draco Plate (similar to Zekrom) as they resist their other Psychic stabs in Stored Power, Psystrike, Psychooboost, and pair it with strong recovery and set up moves depending on their set. Further, mixed Contrarian Latios also resists V-Create (unlike MMX).

 

[RNGIsFatal]

Looks like someone in the council has asked us to discuss something specific... ok I will get this kicked off.

Lcass made good points; it is true that random 'mons like Primal Groudon must run Ice-type coverage just to hit Zygarde-C. But I don't think it is going to leave Zyarde-C in S rank. Yes, Zygarde-C has brought an indirect change in metagame by forcing most physical attackers such as Mega Mewtwo X or Primal Groundon to run Ice-type coverage when they can run another coverage that can hit more threats (most common case, in my opinion is, Primal Groudon choosing Ice Hammer over stuff like Bolt Srike). But if you think Zygarde-C worthy of an S just because it has brought such changes, you are missing a point. Zygarde-C’s only notable niche at this point is being a setup check with Unaware, worsening its passivity by running Prankster, and being an impenetrable behemoth by running Fur Coat. motherlove said Zygarde-C is bulkier than Giratina by its stats, but this is pretty much meaningless in the meta where now everyone anticipates this wall and has most of their wallbreakers equipped with Ice-types which Giratina takes quite better.

At this point I think Giratina should be ranked higher than Zygarde-C in S. While I agree that Giratina also has most of the options of sets narrowed, almost limited to Fur Coat set, Magic Bounce (much better than Zygarde-C because it can punish opponent harder if their hazards were bounced back), and others, its Ghost-typing that makes Giratina a spinblocker differs it significantly different from Zygarde-C. I see how motherlove and others made an argument about how full EV meta has changed many significant OHKOs or 2HKOs, and it makes hazards (namely Stealth Rock) crucially important for stuff like Specs Mega Rayquaza or Mega Mewtwo Y. This means Giratina’s niche as the bulkiest spinblocker is even more notable and it will be important wall to any hyperoffensive teams that will rely on hazards damage to achieve crucial OHKOs or 2HKOs. Besides, Giratina’s Ghost-typing provides an immunity to Shadow Tag, which almost every wall without Magic Bounce fears. In other words, you won’t have to take a deep breath every time you press Milk Drink with your Fur Coat Zygarde-C which imposterproofs all of your physical attackers when Gengarite user exists in the opposing team.

If I were to mention something about EV limit again, it didn’t end up just hampering this ‘mon’s usefulness. Yes, now it misses crucial OHKOs and 2HKOs after full EV meta because everything can invest fully on HP and both defensive stats, but this also means Mega Mewtwo Y has gained some bulk. The most notable change is this:

Aerilate Mega Rayquaza Calcs

Before

252 Atk Aerilate Rayquaza-Mega Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 135-160 (38.2 - 45.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 Atk Aerilate Rayquaza-Mega Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 270-318 (76.4 - 90%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

After

252 Atk Aerilate Rayquaza-Mega Fake Out vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 100-118 (24 - 28.3%) -- 95.4% chance to 4HKO

252 Atk Aerilate Rayquaza-Mega Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 198-234 (47.5 - 56.2%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO

252 Atk Sky Plate Aerilate Rayquaza-Mega Fake Out vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 120-142 (28.8 - 34.1%) -- 2.9% chance to 3HKO

252 Atk Sky Plate Aerilate Rayquaza-Mega Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 237-280 (56.9 - 67.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


It lives plate Fakespeed after Stealth Rock damage.

Also, some sets still leave Mega Mewtwo Y a dangerous threat: Sheer Force sets still 2HKOs Regenvest Solgaleo, Zygarde-C, and all variants of Mega Audino with appropriate moves. Psychic Surge immensely threatens most neutral targets with Psycho Boost / Psystrike, especially with Choice Item. Mega Mewtwo Y is still one of the most dangerous attackers that forces most teams to run stuff like RegenVest Solgaleo, so keep in mind it can sometimes utilize Stakeout or Contrary to break through usual walls it struggles with. Don't see any reasons to pull this thing below S rank.

· FakeSpeed Aerilate
· Specs Aerilate
· Band Tough Claws / Stakeout
· Contrary
· Tail Glow Triage
· Flame Orb Quick Feet
· Shell Smash APS

This is the list of sets that are mentioned in the VR post, and all of them are viable and must-prepare-for sets. This forces most players to scout its movesets using Imposter due to the sheer unpredictability that comes from stellar offensive stats of 180 and speed of 115 which outspeeds most of the unboosted metagame. Also, Dragon and Flying-typing is only resisted by Steel-types, and the likes of Registeel and others must be wary of stuff like V-Create, Blue Flare, Close Combat, Earth Power, or Precipice Blades which most Mega Rayquaza runs except when they rely on Magnet Pull users. Also it is very hard to OHKO Mega Rayquaza without aiming its weakness of Ice and Fairy (I don’t think Rock-type weakness is relevant except for stuff like Tyranitar) due to 105/100/100 bulk that is advanced further after EV limit removal. Mega Rayquaza, unless the significant metagame change occurs, will always stay in S rank.

Honestly, I don't even know how can I be more clear about Primal Kyogre because I pretty mentioned all of my stance here. Too reliant on boosts, and initial raw power is not great as Primal Groudon.

 

[Halliday]

Looks like someone in the council has asked us to discuss something specific... ok I will get this kicked off.

Lcass made good points; it is true that random 'mons like Primal Groudon must run Ice-type coverage just to hit Zygarde-C. But I don't think it is going to leave Zyarde-C in S rank. Yes, Zygarde-C has brought an indirect change in metagame by forcing most physical attackers such as Mega Mewtwo X or Primal Groundon to run Ice-type coverage when they can run another coverage that can hit more threats (most common case, in my opinion is, Primal Groudon choosing Ice Hammer over stuff like Bolt Srike). But if you think Zygarde-C worthy of an S just because it has brought such changes, you are missing a point. Zygarde-C’s only notable niche at this point is being a setup check with Unaware, worsening its passivity by running Prankster, and being an impenetrable behemoth by running Fur Coat. motherlove said Zygarde-C is bulkier than Giratina by its stats, but this is pretty much meaningless in the meta where now everyone anticipates this wall and has most of their wallbreakers equipped with Ice-types which Giratina takes quite better.

I agree with this quite a bit, and would also like to point out that if mons were to be ranked based on their influence in the metagame, Shedinja should be S-rank or high A-rank.

 

[Lcass4919]

i get what you guys are saying, im just saying from my experience, ive never seen ice coverage ran on things zygarde walls, barring a select few, and when it is, its rarely used against zygarde when i use it because they want to be locked into a move that they benefit from .-. im not sayin influence=viability, im just saying from what ive seen, ice coverage specifically to hit zygarde isn't really that beneficial to a lot of pokemon-and from my experience, people stopped running ice coverage as religiously.

idk, if you guys think it should drop, i wont be opposed, i was just thinking from my experience, my zygarde only dies to ice moves like...once every 10 battles. and it still puts in work, so its not like im not using it. i guess ive just gotten lucky with matchups. though ill admit, the times where someone DID run ice coverage, definitely messed up my teams flow, which is a HUGE problem, and thinking about it, i can support it dropping with that in mind.

 

[Halliday]

I'd like to nominate Blissey for D-rank, just because as an alternative imposter to Chansey, it's kinda useful. Also, it can be used in PH sets I guess.

Elaboration Edit:

Although Chansey outclasses it for most imposter roles, that's only due to being able to bluff Eviolite / Lucky Punch. If the opponent is aware of your roll, Blissey is slightly better. This also includes the case where you're using it to imposter proof something on your team, and the opponent knows your item, as the stat difference is more distinct untransformed. For the PH set, the main reason it could work is because Blissey still possesses the insane level of special bulk that it's famous for in standard tiers, and can use that to check several threats, such as SF MM2Y and Primal Kyogre.

 

[sin(pi)]

I'd like to nominate Blissey for D-rank, just because as an alternative imposter to Chansey, it's kinda useful. Also, it can be used in PH sets I guess.

Elaboration Edit:

Although Chansey outclasses it for most imposter roles, that's only due to being able to bluff Eviolite / Lucky Punch. If the opponent is aware of your roll, Blissey is slightly better. This also includes the case where you're using it to imposter proof something on your team, and the opponent knows your item, as the stat difference is more distinct untransformed. For the PH set, the main reason it could work is because Blissey still possesses the insane level of special bulk that it's famous for in standard tiers, and can use that to check several threats, such as SF MM2Y and Primal Kyogre.

(disclaimer I haven't really played BH)
I'd like to oppose this. As an imposter, Blissey has a grand total of 10 HP more (approximately 1.4% more bulk) than Chansey, and that's... it. Chansey may do every set other than Eviolite and Lucky Punch worse than Blissey, but those two are, in my opinion, by far the most effective sets for Imposter, for reasons which we all know. What Chansey also offers is a degree of unpredictability. Blissey is always going to be Imposter (probably Toxic Orb or Scarf, depending on the team) - or Scarf Final Gambit, but that sucks lol. Chansey has the option of a viable Fur Coat set and probably others that I'm forgetting, and is way more unpredictable even with just imposter - the advantage this gives makes up for the tiny loss of bulk which is rarely, if ever, relevant. Yes if your opponent knows your (non-Eviolite/LP) set then Blissey is slightly better, but for the most part, they won't, and there is little stopping you from simply changing the item (which has a larger surprise factor than changing the mon).

You mentioned PH Blissey but I don't think that's a good set personally, though I'd love to be proven wrong.

 

[Halliday]

(disclaimer I haven't really played BH)
I'd like to oppose this. As an imposter, Blissey has a grand total of 10 HP more (approximately 1.4% more bulk) than Chansey, and that's... it. Chansey may do every set other than Eviolite and Lucky Punch worse than Blissey, but those two are, in my opinion, by far the most effective sets for Imposter, for reasons which we all know. What Chansey also offers is a degree of unpredictability. Blissey is always going to be Imposter (probably Toxic Orb or Scarf, depending on the team) - or Scarf Final Gambit, but that sucks lol. Chansey has the option of a viable Fur Coat set and probably others that I'm forgetting, and is way more unpredictable even with just imposter - the advantage this gives makes up for the tiny loss of bulk which is rarely, if ever, relevant. Yes if your opponent knows your (non-Eviolite/LP) set then Blissey is slightly better, but for the most part, they won't, and there is little stopping you from simply changing the item (which has a larger surprise factor than changing the mon).

You mentioned PH Blissey but I don't think that's a good set personally, though I'd love to be proven wrong.

The reasons you mentioned are why I'm nominating it for D-rank instead of something higher, though. The rankings are about what it's viable to use, and it's absolutely viable to use Blissey in some situations. It's largest, and honestly only flaw is that it's outclassed. Beyond that, any time you use Blissey you will see success because as an imposter, it's quite useful. It's just not AS useful as Chansey.

 

[Rumors]

Blissey is only outclassed by Chansey until the latter gets hit by Knock Off, at which point Blissey outclasses Chansey in every role except slow pivoting. This is, of course, assuming Eviolite. Lucky Punch is neat but not entirely reliable nor does it work on non-Imposter/Transform sets.

Due to the prevalence of Knock Off and how desirable of Chansey is to be a target of the move, I do think Blissey should be rateable. No higher than C, but I'd agree with BK and argue for D personally. Or Blissey rank.

 

[Quantum Tesseract]

Blissey is only outclassed by Chansey until the latter gets hit by Knock Off, at which point Blissey outclasses Chansey in every role except slow pivoting. This is, of course, assuming Eviolite. Lucky Punch is neat but not entirely reliable nor does it work on non-Imposter/Transform sets.

Due to the prevalence of Knock Off and how desirable of Chansey is to be a target of the move, I do think Blissey should be rateable. No higher than C, but I'd agree with BK and argue for D personally. Or Blissey rank.

I disagree. The only niche of blissey, IMO, is bluffing some particular non eviolite imposter, such as bluffing scarf or spooky plate and scaring out their shell smash/mgar. The greater bulk granted by eviolite means that the reduced knock off damage further causes Blisey to be outbulked unless it later recovers to full, since having a larger HP pool is meaningless if its less full. Generally speaking, you should never be running Blissey, to a far greater extent than anything else in D (cough pikachu cough).

 

[Halliday]

By the way, I'm wondering if it's cool if we can post guides and stuff here, or should we just go through you / motherlove / funbot?

 

[motherlove]

Uh, I never quite understood why we should rank mons that are completely outclassed. If a mon has no niche in the meta, don't rank it. You can probably get some success with mega Gallade, Wishiwashi or Mega Camerupt, I've seen someone do good work with Mega Blastoise, does that mean we should rank Mega Blastoise? I'm sure everyone would say no because there's no reason to use it instead of Primal Kyogre. The fact that they're outclassed makes them bad, similarly there's not really any reason to use Blissey as an imposter, because Chansey is better so Blissey is comparatively bad. So I don't really see why we should rank it.

Until someone proves that PH Blissey or smt has a legitimate niche that warrants it being ranked, Blissey will be unranked.

I can't really agree with the claim that things that Zyggy walls don't run ice coverage, I think it's completely wrong. In fact the main reason why ppl started using Gira again is because every Groudon under the sun runs Ice Hammer or Icicle Crash, and it does so at very low opportunity cost since Groudon usually only needs double stab to do his job and ice hammer helps him OHKO ray and deal a chunk to Gira. A pretty huge number of MMX's also run ice coverage, even MMY runs ice beam (which is objectively worse coverage for it than moonblast) just because it hits zyggy harder. You can check rmts or smt if you don't believe me.

Also a VR represent how good a mon is, not how much they've shaped the meta or smt. Yes the two correlate more often than not, but they're not equal. So yeah Zygarde is so good that ppl started running ice coverage, but the main thing to take from that is that ppl do indeed run ice coverage, which fucks it up badly. The end result is still that Zyggy ends up less consistent that Giratina, why the meta change happened is irrelevant.