accurpressure, evasion clause? and killing last poke via certain moves?

that depends, i use fire balst on garchomp because the pay off and damge is better, i use flamethrower on infurnape for accuracy and if both teams use evasion then the game is boring waste of time
 
Managing luck is a skill. And what you all are calling luck could also be called chance or probability. Poker players deal with a game that seems to be pure luck. You either get the cards that win or you don't, and you have to suck it up and play with the cards that lady luck gave you. But any poker player would tell you the game is as much about skill as any other game. In both poker and Pokemon, it's not just about one player having a straightforward advantage over other players, its about managing odds and figuring what the chances that some player may or may not have such and such card / move.

Luck is built into the game. I can understand the desire to remove all the elements of luck, but then you could decide any match simply by lining up two teams side by side and figuring out who wins. At that point the only skill in the game comes from building a team, and then it won't be long until there exists a "perfect" team. And at that point, even with all other factors of luck eliminated, the game still comes down to a coin flip, a pure expression of chance, because when two identical perfect teams match up, the speed stats of the starting Pokemon match, and the game flips a coin to decide which team will end up winning.

Yeah, people hate luck, but it's a fundamental part of all games, and it is really what makes them worth playing a lot of the time. Besides, it IS just a game.
 
Hey gaiz!? I lose thiz battle cos of this move, let's ban it!!!.

Why don't we all just ban everything that has a secondary effect except attack moves like Return(hey, 100BP with 100% accuracy, no luck in that, it's all about the skills now!)

On a serious note, creativity in this game is starting to minimize as we ban all this stuff we think is broken.

Please delete my post if seen inappropriate.
 

jrrrrrrr

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Hey gaiz!? I lose thiz battle cos of this move, let's ban it!!!.
That's not what the argument against evasion is at all. If most people are losing matches to one move, it is certainly evidence in favor of the move being "broken", although its not the deciding factor as you point out.

The argument isn't about losing one battle because of it, it is because it essentially removes the skill needed to be successful at the game by increasing the amount of luck you *need* in order to win. A game that does not require skill to be good at is simply not fun in the long run, there is no incentive to keep playing because everyone is at the mercy of the random number generator instead of their own choices.

On a serious note, creativity in this game is starting to minimize as we ban all this stuff we think is broken.
You have it completely backwards. If a pokemon/move/strategy is broken, THAT is what minimizes creativity because it prevents other strategies from being developed. If there is one "broken" strategy, there is no point in thinking up new ideas because they will still lose to the broken one.

And besides, what is actually banned? Sleeping more than one pokemon, boosting evasion, and the Uber tier? I would hardly call that enough bans to limit creativity.

I know I said I wasn't posting in this thread again, but really you need to think before you post.
 
That's not what the argument against evasion is at all. If most people are losing matches to one move, it is certainly evidence in favor of the move being "broken", although its not the deciding factor as you point out.

The argument isn't about losing one battle because of it, it is because it essentially removes the skill needed to be successful at the game by increasing the amount of luck you *need* in order to win. A game that does not require skill to be good at is simply not fun in the long run, there is no incentive to keep playing because everyone is at the mercy of the random number generator instead of their own choices.



You have it completely backwards. If a pokemon/move/strategy is broken, THAT is what minimizes creativity because it prevents other strategies from being developed. If there is one "broken" strategy, there is no point in thinking up new ideas because they will still lose to the broken one.

And besides, what is actually banned? Sleeping more than one pokemon, boosting evasion, and the Uber tier? I would hardly call that enough bans to limit creativity.

I know I said I wasn't posting in this thread again, but really you need to think before you post.
I apologize for my previous post, I just felt like I've been seeing too much "let's ban this" threads.
 

cim

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On a serious note, creativity in this game is starting to minimize as we ban all this stuff we think is broken.
Uh, well, Smogon hasn't actually "banned" anything yet that's not named Manaphy. Smogon's unbanned Deoxys-S. So, since we aren't banning things right now, I can't see that as a cause for people not being creative.

What exactly is this thread about now? It's kinda hard to tell from the OP...
 
I don't agree that luck should be minimized. Nobody bans critical hits. Nobody bans moves that are not 100% accurate. Nobody bans Sand Veil Sandstorm Garchomp. And games between two equally-good players always go in favour of the luckier guy. Luck is an inherent part of the game. But it seems like I'm in the minority here.

I don't see why Acupressure should be banned.
I agree with you whole-heartedly. It seems that any time a game isn't 100% skill based, people throw a hissy fit. It happens in most, if not all, games that have a competitive following.

My opinion is, if you want a 100% skill game, go play Chess.

To me, luck is a big part of the fun and excitement. It starts with banning one item, then another, then pretty soon ,one by one, all items are banned. Thats not to say, I'm for the unbanning of Evasion moves, but banning a move just because it has a 1 in 7 chance of boosting evasion seems to be a bit much. Next thing you know, we'll be banning Toxic, WoW, Thunder Wave and all other status moves. As Obi stated before. 'Banning Acupressure and the like doesn't create this slippery slope: banning anything does.' And right now, I think we've reached a stopping point on this slope.
 
That's not what the argument against evasion is at all. If most people are losing matches to one move, it is certainly evidence in favor of the move being "broken", although its not the deciding factor as you point out.

The argument isn't about losing one battle because of it, it is because it essentially removes the skill needed to be successful at the game by increasing the amount of luck you *need* in order to win. A game that does not require skill to be good at is simply not fun in the long run, there is no incentive to keep playing because everyone is at the mercy of the random number generator instead of their own choices.



You have it completely backwards. If a pokemon/move/strategy is broken, THAT is what minimizes creativity because it prevents other strategies from being developed. If there is one "broken" strategy, there is no point in thinking up new ideas because they will still lose to the broken one.

And besides, what is actually banned? Sleeping more than one pokemon, boosting evasion, and the Uber tier? I would hardly call that enough bans to limit creativity.

I know I said I wasn't posting in this thread again, but really you need to think before you post.
I really think you're looking at it wrong. Luck doesn't negatively affect skill if a person chooses to use moves to force luck in his favor. If a player uses a move that his opponent isn't prepared for, doesn't that make that player the more skilled one? If I choose to use moves that push luck in my favor, is that my right? Shouldn't I be the one to decide whether or not I should favor a more powerful/luck-based move instead of a reliable one? Isn't it skill to be able to measure whether or not using a less reliable move is a wise decision?

Heat Wave is, in everyone's mind, an inferior Flamethrower, yet in a battle where Heat Wave is used less than 15 times (accounting for PP-ups) and never misses, that means that the person achieved an output higher than had the person used Flamethrower. Now, I'm not saying Heat Wave is a good move; I'm just saying that if a person wants to use a riskier move, that's his or her right. Double Team does not offer any defensive advantages if the opponent hits regardless. Unlike more reliable offensive and defensive moves, users who use Double Team are taking a major risk. For the chance at setting up, they're risky irrecoverable damage and wasted turns.
 
Managing luck is a skill. And what you all are calling luck could also be called chance or probability. Poker players deal with a game that seems to be pure luck. You either get the cards that win or you don't, and you have to suck it up and play with the cards that lady luck gave you. But any poker player would tell you the game is as much about skill as any other game. In both poker and Pokemon, it's not just about one player having a straightforward advantage over other players, its about managing odds and figuring what the chances that some player may or may not have such and such card / move.

Luck is built into the game. I can understand the desire to remove all the elements of luck, but then you could decide any match simply by lining up two teams side by side and figuring out who wins. At that point the only skill in the game comes from building a team, and then it won't be long until there exists a "perfect" team. And at that point, even with all other factors of luck eliminated, the game still comes down to a coin flip, a pure expression of chance, because when two identical perfect teams match up, the speed stats of the starting Pokemon match, and the game flips a coin to decide which team will end up winning.

Yeah, people hate luck, but it's a fundamental part of all games, and it is really what makes them worth playing a lot of the time. Besides, it IS just a game.
There is no such thing as a "prefect" team and there never will be. One because perfect is in the eye of the beholder and two because any team can be countered even if a team has to be made to counter the team.

Also they want to eliminate Luck so that skill comes into play. The skill to predict what the opponent will do. Just because a team is lined up with counters to a team doesn't mean it will win if the player sucks with it and can't make the predictions to use it.

I don't see how we can complain about Accupressure when we don't complain about Togekiss or BPChomp. I mean if your team is made to utilize some sort of haxs then that is good for you and you better hope your haxs work. but personally I do hate evasion increasers.
 
because there is no flinch clause
evasion clause so i dont see why things like acupressure should have the boosts to evasion when there is a clause to prevent it, and i think there are a few moves that lower accuracy slipping through the clause net.
 
Lowering accuracy isn't the same as increasing evasion, since you can just switch out, barring Mean Look + Sand Attack + BP umbreon and the like.
 
Also they want to eliminate Luck so that skill comes into play. The skill to predict what the opponent will do. Just because a team is lined up with counters to a team doesn't mean it will win if the player sucks with it and can't make the predictions to use it.
But why? Luck doesn't decrease the amount of 'skill' present, especially when you're educated enough to know how to prevent the opponent from obtaining lucky breaks. While a string of bad/good luck can make or break a game, that doesn't mean anything. If critical hits are really getting on your nerves because of your bad luck, add some Battle/Shell Armor Pokemon to your team or aim to prevent the opponent from attacking in the first place through status.
 

obi

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Battle Armor and Shell Armor don't help. You can't think "Hmm... He's about to get a critical hit! I'd best switch to by Battle Armor Drapion to take that CH!". If someone restricts their team to Drapion and Cloyster, they are probably going to lose regardless.
 
I wasn't suggesting that he use that method of thinking. I honestly think that a lot of the problems stem from people worrying too much about what the opponent is going to do rather doing things themselves. For him, I was suggesting that if luck is going against him, he adapt a playstyle or team that aims to inhibit the opponent from gaining the benefits. I believe that that's better than proposing a blanket ban simply because you don't like the effects that are resulting.

If something is beating you, you have three options:

1. Ignore it and play as you've always played, accepting the losses when they happen.
2. Make minor changes to your team; substituting a move, changing your lead to another team member, reworking that strategy.
3. Make major changes to your team; replace a Pokemon for one more capable of beating the threat you've been facing, replace your strategy and develop a new one.

If Garchomp causes you to lose, aren't you told to add counters to beat it? If Blissey is walling you, aren't you told to add Focus Punch to 'predict' its arrival? So why is Double Team looked at this incredibly centralizing force that would cause countless Pokemon to be 'unbeatable'? Why is it that people seem to think the only way to beat a Pokemon with Double Team is to use Pokemon so overly centralized that it serves no other purpose to the team when more generic (and viable) moves and tactics have already been suggested?
 
i agree that banning luck is dumb. luck is part of the game. it isn't entirely luck either, it's mathematics. just because it kicks in at almost unpredictable times, it's still logical in its execution and happening.

banning luck is just dumb. shit happens, you know?
And that is why I am bowing down in front of my computer at your post. Someone finally shows some sense!
 
I think Acupressure would be too pendantic to ban. I never ever see it used, so it would make little difference to begin with, and it also really isn't an amazing move found on every Pokemon (the best one is Drapion, who has his niches, but is nowhere near great).
i completely agree that banning acupresure would be pedantic, if someone like to take the risk of use acupressure and rise the sp. att. of a phisycal sweeper or rise the def. while youre facing a sp. attacker, then he have the right to use acupresure.
 
Half of this game is luck. Acupressure isn't used competitively because it's not a competitive move, not because a 1/7 chance of +2 to evasion is gamebreaking. When you use a move like Acupressure, you're taking a risk, which you may or may not be rewarded for - if you don't get anything useful, you've effectively wasted a turn. If you do get a useful boost, they could still hit you.

If Acupressure were as reliable as Double Team or Minimize, there'd be grounds for banning it. If Destiny Bond didn't knock out the user, there'd be ground for banning it. Both these moves are risky and as such they can pay off big, or they can make you look like a fool. But I think the biggest test of their "brokenness" is how much you run into them in battles - hardly at all. Whereas I can imagine that a Ninjask with Speed Boost, Baton Pass, Double Team and Brightpowder/Focus Sash might make you feel like you've been cheated, because Double Team is disproportionately powerful compared to other moves. It's as simple as that.
 
Actually evasion clause is not a problem.

If you don't want to miss your fire blast or thunder, use flamethrower/thuderbolt instead! Luck is one of the most important aspect in pokemon game. You could put a machamp in your team to avoid missing attack towards Garchomp!
Sometimes burn and paralyze would decide the game too, why don't we ban all the status in anyway?
 

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