Resource SM OU Viability Ranking Thread

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Naw I think Keldeo can go to A-. It gets walked on by a lot more things in the tier just by virtue of its typing than last gen when its typing actually was a strong point for it (tapu bulu and toxapex immediately come to mind) and as the poster above me said the drop of usage of certain pokemon hindered the the viability of what was its best set at the beginning of the gen which was scarf. Tapu lele and tapu koko both take giant turds on it regardless of the set and latios and mega pinsir both outspeed and embarrass it lmao... do keep in mind that these are all A rank pokemon that I am mentioning which should give the notion that these are prevalent enough mons for using keldeo to be a bit of a liability. I also think the sets that have any sort of move that require setting up are just given a tough wrap because it finds too little opportunities to set up because almost every team has at least one natural check to it. Also now that I think of it mega venu is just on the rise and that's just a hard counter in every single way. In fact I've just realized how much I hate using Keldeo in this generation... I would personally put it as far as B+ but my personal viability rankings would be much more distorted than the one currently up... it simply just got worse at the beginning of the gen when all these new good mons that were hard counters/checks to it came out but now the rise of mega venu and the drop of all these pokemon that is handled with its best set are just examples of adding salt to the wound. Granted Keldeo is a great mon most of the time but it just seems there are all these glaring issues that used to not be so noticeable and that's why I think it should drop but that's just me...
 

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Initial ranking thoughts
Altaria is shit, drop it. It's never gonna sweep vs most teams. 80 base is just way too slow to work against offensive teams, most of which carry ice type moves and spikes to kill it. 75/110/105 can't hold up against offense. It's not powerful enough to break past stall, and Steels are pretty much gg for it - Celesteela is the most notable. It cannot break past the Pex/Celes/Venu core that defines balance rn. Mega diancie is fine, imo mega Latias is a-. It walls non z move lando, z wild Koko, zard y, and it's a defogger that beats lando, chomp, and most rockers in general.
A ---> A+ - Agree. This thing is far too versatile and effective. Z wild breaks through pex/Celes/venu with sheer ease and this also breaks Zard Y balance. The other sets as good as ever. This also ruins birdspam and pairs with Diancie very well.

A+ ---> A - indifferent
A ---> A- - indifferent
B ---> B- - agree. Tank set is walked by pex, which also is a lot better at walling threats. T spikes ruins mega bro. Zard Y teams are terrible for this, with Zard Y and t-tar beating it. Absolutely useless vs AV as well. Drop.

I'm still gonna push for Ttar to A. Everything is going right for this mon. It checks the rising birdspam core, it traps prominent mons like Mew and the Latis - rising in usage as of late -, it's a cornerstone of Zard Y balance, it smashes Pex/Celes/Venu. Rain dislikes losing it's weather. This is on the level of Ferro, Latios, Clef and Chomp rn for sure.

Gonna echo Vertex's nomination of Tang to A-. This has fallen off so much lol. Zard Y teams destroy it. Against stall it's deadweight. Most notably, Mega Venu is rising as an alternative, with better bulk without being forced to hold Assault Vest, poison providing valuable resistances, and most notably, not dying to Toxic Spikes, which Tang does. Rn both are equally viable and for sure should be ranked equally.

Breloom to UR - As a wall breaker, Pex/Venu/Celes completely wall it. Mega Venu in particular is bad news for it, as it blocks Spore. Useless vs offense. It has no real niche left in the meta.

Gliscor to UR - SubToxic is 100% outdone by Heatean, which has a better typing for the role, has Magma Storm to trap and beat many defensive mons, and has better special bulk.
On mobile, so all for now.
 
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Naw I think Keldeo can go to A-. It gets walked on by a lot more things in the tier just by virtue of its typing than last gen when its typing actually was a strong point for it (tapu bulu and toxapex immediately come to mind) and as the poster above me said the drop of usage of certain pokemon hindered the the viability of what was its best set at the beginning of the gen which was scarf. Tapu lele and tapu koko both take giant turds on it regardless of the set and latios and mega pinsir both outspeed and embarrass it lmao... do keep in mind that these are all A rank pokemon that I am mentioning which should give the notion that these are prevalent enough mons for using keldeo to be a bit of a liability. I also think the sets that have any sort of move that require setting up are just given a tough wrap because it finds too little opportunities to set up because almost every team has at least one natural check to it. Also now that I think of it mega venu is just on the rise and that's just a hard counter in every single way. In fact I've just realized how much I hate using Keldeo in this generation... I would personally put it as far as B+ but my personal viability rankings would be much more distorted than the one currently up... it simply just got worse at the beginning of the gen when all these new good mons that were hard counters/checks to it came out but now the rise of mega venu and the drop of all these pokemon that is handled with its best set are just examples of adding salt to the wound. Granted Keldeo is a great mon most of the time but it just seems there are all these glaring issues that used to not be so noticeable and that's why I think it should drop but that's just me...
Did you say that Mega Pinsir outspeeds Keldeo?

I encourage you to stop thinking that Toxapex and Bulu are counters when they only counter the Sets you used. Taunt completely shuts down Pex and Bulu dies to +1 Hydro Vortex after some prior damage. 98.2% is the max roll.

While Keldeo is very easy to check with the Tapus it is very hard to counter aside from Mega Venu and Latis, both which are food for CB TTar. Nothing can really safely switch in and you do not have to CM. There are matchups when the good defensive typing with its solid bulk are more appreciated than the ability to sweep. Z-Hydro is just a nice nukebutton that simply kills of Lele, Mega Pinsir and other fairly bulky mons. I cannot describe how many times I have switched Keldeo into Specs Gren, Secret Sworded while getting a kill and my opponent trying to force me out with their Specs Lele, just to die from neutral Hydro Vortex or Mega Pinsirs trying to setup, thinking I am locked into Secret Sword.

You said Keldeo has a hard time setting up but that is not true either. Having perfect counters to the Scarfsets such as Bulu, Toxapex, Tangrowth and even Mantine makes the opponents play very obvious which gives you a free CM. Mega Venu also only counters if it has Giga Drain, which it occasionally lacks.

I do not really mind if Keldeo drops in the end but I just cannot stand it when people only consider Scarf Sets and think all you need is a Toxapex or Mantine to be safe.


Regarding Mega Altaria:
I want to share my results with the DD+Cotton Guard Set with Facade and Roost. People mention Celesteela and Mega Venu as counters which is true, if you Mega Evolve. While you can beat Celesteela even if you Mega Evolve with all the defense you get, you risk getting crit. I personally prefer the Set that barely outspeeds Gengar at +1, max HP and rest into attack with Adamant nature. What is the result? I never really swept with that Set. Against Balance all your opponent has to do is Leech Seed with Celesteela, go to Pex and Haze all your boosts. Against HO you get pressured too much without Earthquake and against Stall you cannot break Unaware Clef+Toxapex. Overall not a reliable Set to sweep with. Not enough experience with other Sets but I think it can drop to C+.

Regarding Mega Latias:
I did not use this mon yet but I faced many opponents using CM Stored Power with Tbolt, Bolt Beam Reflect Type, Bulky Roar and even Defog Sets. The most annoying Set I have faced was an offensive hazard stacking team with Greninja who use Mega Latias to Roar and threaten Defoggers like Zapdos, Skarmory, Mantine and Fini with Bolt Beam. Very disgusting Set because it is soo bulky and always Roars you into your hazardweak mons lol.
CM Stored Power with Thunderbolt is a wonderful wincondition that can setup on so much in the meta, even against other CMers and beat them with Stored Power. Thunderbolt hits relevant Darktypes hard except for TTar and gives you a tool to hit Pex+Steela hard with few boosts.
I could see Mega Latias rise to A- easily. Its defensive typing is so good on almost every team. I might use this today because my teams are always weak to Zapdos. Discharge though :/

Regarding Mega Diancie:
I basicly used every Set you can think off and it is incredible how versatile Mega Diancie is with the Speedbuff. Not having to run Protect allows you to run Sharpen, CM and even Rock Polish Sets much more reliably. You can now also setup in base form for the bulk and only Mega Evolve, when you need the immediate Speed or damageboost. Stealth Rock Sets are also very cool but you have to run HP Fire to punish Mega Scizor. Acting like you do not have the move early game is recommended to reliable lure Mega Scizor later and keep up your Rocks.
Also a fantastic Mega Pinsir counter and in general solid against HO and Stall with the correct Set. With Rock Polish (you have to Rock Polish as you force out Pelipper etc.) you can also 6-0 Rain teams if you weaken Ferro and Swampert.
I could see this mon going A+ in the future but because of Dugtrio and how every time you have to hope you picked the correct moves for the matchup, A is fine. Stealth Rock, Stabs with HP Fire is probably the most consistent Set.
 

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Hello everyone. Please consider this a friendly reminder to not theorymon, nominate Pokemon to be ranked in an improper fashion, or discuss potential suspects/retests in this thread. The OP states:
  • When nominating a Pokemon, do not merely list its obvious qualities such as stats, typing, movepool, etc. If you think a Pokemon deserves to rise or drop, explain what has changed in the meta to cause such Pokemon to get better or worse.
  • Suspect talk, unrelated stuff, one liners that ask questions that provide no substance, something that doesn't really pertain to rankings or petty arguments about semantics and definitions, such as the definition of a counter as one example, will be deleted.
Thank you for understanding and happy posting!

Gary EDIT: yeah fuckers
 
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---> A-
Diancie can be a wrecking ball in this current metagame. It destroys almost everything with ease. But at the same time it dies to way too many mons rn. Its extremely weak to zygarde/landorus' ground moves, meaning it cant switch in at all. The rise of duggy also makes this harder to use as it cant run shed shell. It has no hp, like at all, scald from a tox does like 47, which is insane. But its magic bounce ability is great for high risk high reward players.

---> B+
This thing is so bulky and so powerful at the same time. It can easily be a A- were it not so weak to toxic, which has gotten a lot more popular with mons like Tox and Tran. Its CM set is so powerful it can blow up teams so easily. It can turn Mew, one of the most reliable defensive backbones in the metagame rn, into set up bait. Very few mons can actually do that. It can also run defog + 2 attks, or roost with 3attks. On the other hand its weak to uturns and dark type mons like Ttar (both of them). The Ttars, unfortunately, render this mon completely useless when they are on the field. It will have to rely too much on its team members.

---> C

Literally one of the worst mega mons in the current metagame. It can never reliably set up or sweep on its own. There are much better set up non-mega mons rn.

A ---> A+ Strongly agree

100% agree. Its far too powerful with its electric terrain. Volt switch/ uturn makes this mon the best momentum seeker in the entire metagame. It can break stuff with ease as others here have already suggested and is one of the best team member mons. It also makes mons like Hawlucha viable in OU. And not just viable, it makes it deadly, one of the best late game sweepers rn. It can break stall, break fast teams, balanced teams and hyper offensive teams. Its crazy good.

A+ ---> A Agree
With such low speed, I never understood how it was one the best wallbreakers. Tbh its not that hard to contain it cuz of its horrible speed. Plus, the rise of tran makes this suggested drop make sense. I dont think it belongs with the A+ mons. Those mons, along with the 2 S ones, are literally THE game changers of OU.

A ---> A- Agree
Its best set was scrafed keldeo. Unfortunately, there are better scarfers rn such as kartana and lele. Also this mon gets completely walled by Tox and growth unless its running CM Breaknetz blitz which isnt very viable right now and common. Keldeo gives up free switches to mons like growth and tox, which in turn gives up Tspikes or a knock/regen. I dont like this mon too much.

B ---> B- Strongly agree
SBro is outclassed big time by Tox and doesnt really have a real viable set rn. Its awful to Toxic/Tspikes and any hazards esp 3 layers of spikes. Its so slow, meaning it will always have to take 2 hits before returning a hit or recovering. It cant check things its supposed to.
 
volcarona a+ to a

volc is still a good mon but things have changed to make it not a+ material. mega latias release as well as ttar's popularity means that it's kind of forced to run both stabs (volc without fire stab is no set) and it needs to choose between heatran/toxapex, fini/diancie, and zyg/chomp for its last slot. you can use the "it can be tailored to fit your team's needs" argument all you want but man you can't guarantee that chomp will be out of the way just because you have hp ice zard y or something
...
This is kinda contradictory.
You say it NEEDS to run both STABs and Volcarona then can't kill Zyg/Chomp without HP Ice or gets walled by Diancie, which simply isn't true.
Z-Bug Savage Spin-out OHKO's both Chomp and Band Zygarde without any boosts after rocks (it's fun killing Scarf Chomp that think they're switching in on a QD) and OHKO's M-diancie at +1 after rocks. I agree Z-psych is prediction reliant and personally wouldn't use it, but besides Pex walling you anyway your only hard decision is now between HP Ground or Giga Drain.

... And with the introduction of the new megas, all of which are at least serviceable, there's more that stops it now. It's hard to have the right coverage/be in the ideal position to fulfill its role. Not to mention it's a very restricting mon.
Not saying I agree with a drop though, Scizor being on more teams is nice for it but diancie and veil hurt.
As for the new Megas: Volc really enjoys M-diancie being released. Being a Magic Bouncer that checks Pinsir, threatens Stall, 2HKO's Toxapex and Unaware Clef and pressures Veil is pretty great support for it. M-lati can't switch in safely and M-alt doesn't seem too relevant. They've only been out for a week though, so it's too soon to really say anything sensible about that matchup anyway...
 
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Mega-Altaria isn't a great set up sweeper, but it's typing is so useful in walling a good bunch of threats. My favorite set from ORAS is the bulky special attacker, and I used it a couple days ago to absolutely fry Skarmory/Ferrothorn with Fire Blast. SpDef Celesteela takes at least 40% from FB, making it not the hard stop to Altaria as it should be (and can be done away with pretty easily given proper team support).

Altaria was able to wall the ever-popular Ash-Gren to high heavens, has Earthquake for Heatran (who doesn't do a whole lot back), and a generally spammable strong STAB in Pixilate Hyper Voice. Is it the best Mega? No, but it's not completely worthless either. It's a great glue and should be used as such.
 
---> A-
Diancie can be a wrecking ball in this current metagame. It destroys almost everything with ease. But at the same time it dies to way too many mons rn. Its extremely weak to zygarde/landorus' ground moves, meaning it cant switch in at all. The rise of duggy also makes this harder to use as it cant run shed shell. It has no hp, like at all, scald from a tox does like 47, which is insane. But its magic bounce ability is great for high risk high reward players.
A lot of stuff in this current metagame loses to Ground STAB. Heatran has a much worse time against all three of the threats you mentioned overall (poor speed tier by comparison, much bigger weakness to Ground STAB, and no reliable means of breaking past them should it get an opportunity to attack) but is still solidly in A+. As an offensive sweeper with rather questionable (albeit passable) bulk it isn't really supposed to switch in on these threats.

There's also a few other things to take note of: Rock Polish variants can find opportunities to set up on something Diancie forces out, suddenly making Dugtrio a lot less of an issue since Diancie reaches a very fearsome 606 Speed (assuming a Rash nature and 188 Speed IVs, which gives Diancie a fair bit more Diamond Storm damage). Calm Mind variants can effortlessly OHKO Zygarde and Landorus at +1 and Diancie does an exceptional job at forcing numerous switches to get these boosts. And lastly, and perhaps most importantly, Diamond Storm has been considerably buffed this generation, now giving Diancie a 50% chance to outright give it +2 Defense with no drawbacks. At +2 Defense with literally no investment otherwise, Diancie can consistently live Banded Zygarde's Thousand Arrows and even has a solid chance to live the Extreme Speed thereafter (note that Zygarde is forced to switch out if it wants to do this, letting Diancie dent something else). With Stealth Rocks up a SpA-boosting nature gives it a non-negligible chance to OHKO Landorus-T outright (note that with Rock Polish this is generally a good idea).

Mega Diancie is very much on the level of threats like Zard Y, Mawile, and Pinsir. I would almost venture to say it can surpass them. With unparalleled versatility, an excellent Speed tier, enormous damage output on both ends of the spectrum, an incredible move in Diamond Storm that gives it a chance to turn checks into death fodder, and a downright amazing ability on top of all this, it's very safe to say that Mega Diancie shouldn't really drop below the other Megas in A. It's honestly good enough for a potential rise if metagame trends change in its favor eventually, which is entirely possible given Dugtrio's disgustingly good track record.
 
As an offensive sweeper with rather questionable (albeit passable) bulk it isn't really supposed to switch in on these threats.
Good post, but I have to take issue with this. Mega Diancie would really like to switch in on Lando and Garchomp, because it's supposed to be able to block their rocks. It can't really do its job as a magic bouncer if it can't reliably switch in on the best rockers in the tier.
 
A ---> A- Agree
Its best set was scrafed keldeo. Unfortunately, there are better scarfers rn such as kartana and lele. Also this mon gets completely walled by Tox and growth unless its running CM Breaknetz blitz which isnt very viable right now and common. Keldeo gives up free switches to mons like growth and tox, which in turn gives up Tspikes or a knock/regen. I dont like this mon too much.
Its best set most definitely isn't scarf, especially right now. Its wallbreaking set, with taunt and Z-hydro is far and away its best set, and the Z-Hyper beam one isnt even worth bringing up. Also, comparing keldeo to lele and kartana as scarfers also doesnt make much sense, as its largest niche as a scarfer was to stop +1 volcorona, which both kartana and lele fail to do. Finally, you list tangrowth and pex as counters, but tangrowth doesnt do much damage while getting hit very hard after even one calm mind, and toxapex is complete set-up fodder for keldeo.
 
Good post, but I have to take issue with this. Mega Diancie would really like to switch in on Lando and Garchomp, because it's supposed to be able to block their rocks. It can't really do its job as a magic bouncer if it can't reliably switch in on the best rockers in the tier.
Diancie's job is not to bounce rocks back, lol. That's just a nice bonus. It's job is to dismantle entire OU teams which it does pretty well
 

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Its best set most definitely isn't scarf, especially right now. Its wallbreaking set, with taunt and Z-hydro is far and away its best set, and the Z-Hyper beam one isnt even worth bringing up. Also, comparing keldeo to lele and kartana as scarfers also doesnt make much sense, as its largest niche as a scarfer was to stop +1 volcorona, which both kartana and lele fail to do. Finally, you list tangrowth and pex as counters, but tangrowth doesnt do much damage while getting hit very hard after even one calm mind, and toxapex is complete set-up fodder for keldeo.
With a little bit of chip Kartana can KO Volcarona with Aerial Ace.

Anyhow, to prevent this from being a 1-liner, I support a Koko rise. It's Z-wild charge set allows it to cheese through a lot of its counters, and its vanilla pivot/stallbreaker set is still quite potent, even more so now that a lot of players will hesitate to bring in a special sponge and opt for a mixed electric resist Tangrowth, which is total U-turn bait. It's a pretty good bird
 
Diancie's job is not to bounce rocks back, lol. That's just a nice bonus. It's job is to dismantle entire OU teams which it does pretty well
"Its job as a magic bouncer"

P sure that any mon with magic bounce would at least like to use it, which is what I said.
 
Its best set most definitely isn't scarf, especially right now. Its wallbreaking set, with taunt and Z-hydro is far and away its best set, and the Z-Hyper beam one isnt even worth bringing up. Also, comparing keldeo to lele and kartana as scarfers also doesnt make much sense, as its largest niche as a scarfer was to stop +1 volcorona, which both kartana and lele fail to do. Finally, you list tangrowth and pex as counters, but tangrowth doesnt do much damage while getting hit very hard after even one calm mind, and toxapex is complete set-up fodder for keldeo.
well not all scarfers need to revenge kill volc. And Killing volc with Keld will be quite hard when it already got its boost. Its best chance is Stone edge which fails to be a reliable move at bad accuracy. If you miss, the game is over. I suggested Lele and Kart are better scarfers. In general they are. They just need other mons to check volcs. BTW lele takes a +1 fire blast with relative easy. It has more than 80% chance of surviving (assuming rocks are off which ur opponent will prioritize removing).
 

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"Its job as a magic bouncer"

P sure that any mon with magic bounce would at least like to use it, which is what I said.
Except that it does make use of its ability by bouncing Wisp from the likes of Mew and Mega Sab. While you're not going to switch Diancie straight into most rockers and tspikes from pex, having Diancie in the back forces mindgames against hazard setters you can capitalize on in certain scenarios. Mega Diancie has the ability to bounce back hazards but it doesn't automatically mean that it's one of its roles and that it can't perform it effectively.
That said, there's not much I can add to most of these noms outside of drop Keldeo, that zhydro taunt set or whatever is overhyped af and doesnt have most of the merits people attribute it such as "destroying stall" and "fat teams having pretty much no counterplay to it". I really don't get why it's getting so much attention rn when it's as easy to pressure offensively as any other CM/Specs set so it won't do much to most offenses and fat teams just scald burn it and rkill wih dug once it's in range, which doesn't take too long considering how many boosts it needs to blow past pex. Feel free to disagree with me as I've only used it for about 5 games but from my perspective it's not as great as it's being made out to be and even makes me question if some of these posters have even tried it out.
 
"Its job as a magic bouncer"

P sure that any mon with magic bounce would at least like to use it, which is what I said.
This is completely flawed way of thinking about this mon. If your treat this mon like form of hazard control you will lose many games due to creating unnecessary 50/50. If you want to use this mon to it's full potential you want to bring it safely (so you won't lost it before it get any kill) in order to deal most damage you possibly can.

You have plenty of defogres in this tier. Let wallbreakers be wallbreakers
 
This is completely flawed way of thinking about this mon. If your treat this mon like form of hazard control you will lose many games due to creating unnecessary 50/50. If you want to use this mon to it's full potential you want to bring it safely (so you won't lost it before it get any kill) in order to deal most damage you possibly can.

You have plenty of defogres in this tier. Let wallbreakers be wallbreakers
The problem is it then has no ability if u view it that way. It cant switch on anything as everything kills it far too easily. But its ability is quite useful against certain teams, those teams that set up webs, rocks in order to win. Im thinking the njnp teams. It can block all hazards for free and render those teams quite useless, altho it dies to final gambit shuckle if ur opp predicts the switch.

I guess it can go to A but A+ is too much imo. I have yet seen a game decided by a MDiancie. IMO it isnt a game changer like the other A+ mons.
 
The problem is it then has no ability if u view it that way. It cant switch on anything as everything kills it far too easily. But its ability is quite useful against certain teams, those teams that set up webs, rocks in order to win. Im thinking the njnp teams. It can block all hazards for free and render those teams quite useless, altho it dies to final gambit shuckle if ur opp predicts the switch.

I guess it can go to A but A+ is too much imo. I have yet seen a game decided by a MDiancie. IMO it isnt a game changer like the other A+ mons.
Its ability isn't hugely relevant to its role on most teams. Don't get me wrong, Magic Bounce is great, but if you're going to aggressively hard switch it into every Stealth Rocker you encounter you're going to lose games because they decide to click Earthquake instead or whatever. I think this was Seth_ 's point.

M-Diancie does screw over Webs but it does that just by leading, and it's not really foolproof because if they lead with Steela or something you're forced out without Mega Evolving (unless you're that one motherfucker in the entire metagame who still runs Protect) which makes it much easier for them to get Webs up later in the game.

Also most people are not going to sac a full health Shuckle just to 1 for 1 Mega Diancie unless they already have Webs up, in which case the whole point is moot anyways.
 
well not all scarfers need to revenge kill volc. And Killing volc with Keld will be quite hard when it already got its boost. Its best chance is Stone edge which fails to be a reliable move at bad accuracy. If you miss, the game is over. I suggested Lele and Kart are better scarfers. In general they are. They just need other mons to check volcs. BTW lele takes a +1 fire blast with relative easy. It has more than 80% chance of surviving (assuming rocks are off which ur opponent will prioritize removing).
Just wanted to point out that there is some bias in this reasoning. Stone Edge has an 80% chance to hit, lele has an 80% chance to survive a +1 hit, it's the same chance. Not to mention that after lele rolls to live the hit, it has to roll again to even try to KO volc with psyshock (its only move capable of doing so), so in reality scarf keldeo is much more reliable in this role.
I agree tho that keldeo is a subpar scarfer right now because it doesn't want to be locked into any of it's moves, since water and fighting resists abound.
 
well not all scarfers need to revenge kill volc. And Killing volc with Keld will be quite hard when it already got its boost. Its best chance is Stone edge which fails to be a reliable move at bad accuracy. If you miss, the game is over. I suggested Lele and Kart are better scarfers. In general they are. They just need other mons to check volcs. BTW lele takes a +1 fire blast with relative easy. It has more than 80% chance of surviving (assuming rocks are off which ur opponent will prioritize removing).
Once again, you're only talking about the scarf set. Yes, that set isnt great right now, but you seem to be forgetting that keldeo can in fact hold different items. Calm mind taunt + a z move is easily its best set atm.
Also, lele surviving a +1 fire blast not even all the time is pretty irrelevant considering it cant revenge kill, and does die to a z-move which volc users will typically click against un-OHKO-able targets anyways.
I'm not terribly opposed to dropping keldeo to A-, but your reasons for it are undoubtedly the wrong reasons.
 
This is completely flawed way of thinking about this mon. If your treat this mon like form of hazard control you will lose many games due to creating unnecessary 50/50. If you want to use this mon to it's full potential you want to bring it safely (so you won't lost it before it get any kill) in order to deal most damage you possibly can.

You have plenty of defogres in this tier. Let wallbreakers be wallbreakers
You're putting words in my mouth that aren't there. I said it'd like to be able to switch in on Garchomp and Lando to reflect their rocks. Not that its sole purpose is hazard control. Just that we shouldn't act like it has no reason to switch in on rocks mons.
 

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Once again, you're only talking about the scarf set. Yes, that set isnt great right now, but you seem to be forgetting that keldeo can in fact hold different items. Calm mind taunt + a z move is easily its best set atm.
Also, lele surviving a +1 fire blast not even all the time is pretty irrelevant considering it cant revenge kill, and does die to a z-move which volc users will typically click against un-OHKO-able targets anyways.
I'm not terribly opposed to dropping keldeo to A-, but your reasons for it are undoubtedly the wrong reasons.
Once again, you're bringing up the CM Taunt set as Keldeo's best set when it's not actually as good as you and many others make it out to be. It's just an overhyped set that a few seem to have tried it out with some success and all of the sudden everyone's assuming it breaks Stall and beats bulky teams when it actually doesn't. Its offense matchup is worse than Scarf Keld's and it can barely scratch Stall because Pex+Dug beat it with very little drawback. Other bulky teams like Celepex type of Balance either pack Duggy or other offensive checks like Scarf Lati, or even both so unless you have some proof of that set's success and superiority to any other set as you claim you need to stop posting the same "You're assuming scarf is best when z is better" argument

edit@below: "Calm mind taunt + a z move is easily its best set atm"
 
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Once again, you're bringing up the CM Taunt set as Keldeo's best set when it's not actually as good as you and many others make it out to be. It's just an overhyped set that a few seem to have tried it out with some success and all of the sudden everyone's assuming it breaks Stall and beats bulky teams when it actually doesn't. Its offense matchup is worse than Scarf Keld's and it can barely scratch Stall because Pex+Dug beat it with very little drawback. Other bulky teams like Celepex type of Balance either pack Duggy or other offensive checks like Scarf Lati, or even both so unless you have some proof of that set's success and superiority to any other set as you claim you need to stop posting the same "You're assuming scarf is best when z is better" argument
I don't mean that he's arguing scarf is better, because that would mean he aknowledges any other set. I was just stating that he was clearly missing a very prominent keldeo set and was basing his reason to drop off of only that.

But yeah, you're right when you say it gets shut down by duggy. However, it can rip through celes, pex, tangrowth when they're duggyless. Ans even when they do have dugtrio, a well played keldeo can set up and taunt the toxapex rather than triggering the potential eject button, and claim at least one member on balance or stall at the very least.
 

Yoshi

IT'S FINK DUMBASS
to B-

Hi everyone, terrible player here, I wanted to make a nomination on of my own suggesting that Infernape should be move to B- from C+. Now, if you don't feel like reading a long post this should be reason enough: Infernape shouldn't be in the same rank as Mega Gardevoir. Of course, if you're one who likes actual reason, I have that too, please stay tuned.

So, why even use Infernape? Take a look at the S and A ranks and tell me what you see. You'll notice that quite a few Pokemon have a weakness to Fire and Fighting type moves. What comes with the whole package? Infernape of course! With Infernape, you're able to take out huge threats such as Celesteela and Magearna, as well as still have the ability to eliminate Pokemon that fire types are walled by, such as Heatran.

But, I'm sure your counter argument is, "Infernape gets walled by Landorus-Therian." Depending on the set, of course, you can be, but Infernape is a very versatile Pokemon. It can run Choice Scarf, Choice Band, Expert Belt, Life Orb, and even Choice Specs (lol). With this in mind, it's important to understand that Infernape also has an extreme amount of coverage to deal with threats, like Lando-T, and many others (also, yes, I understand everything has Hidden Power Ice, but Infernape can utilize it).

Here's a good example of that: Toxapex is a Pokemon you would think would 100% wall Infernape. Simply, this sometimes isn't the case. Infernape has access to an excellent coverage move, being Thunder Punch, as well as being able to utilize the ability Iron Fist to boost Thunder Punch's power. With a Choice Band, Infernape is able to do this to Toxapex:

252 Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Infernape Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex: 140-166 (46 - 54.6%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery.

This is an insane amount of damage, which also proves that CB Nape has a good stall match up, but that's not the point right now. The point is, Infernape can run a bunch of different coverage moves to help it's match up against certain Pokemon. Furthermore, Infernape has access to U-Turn, which allows it to pivot out on switch out on counters such Zygarde and Greninja.

The main idea here is that Infernape is very versatile, and with that very unpredictable. Some Pokemon you think would beat it may not beat it at all, which shakes up the meta quite a bit. That is why I think Infernape should be in B-, rather than C+, because it does in fact have a niche on some teams.
 

Leo

after hours
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While I agree that Infernape has the potential to be ranked a bit higher, I don't get why a lot of the recent arguments for its rise base themselves on stuff like Life Orb and other offensive sets alongside the Scarf set when the Scarf set is pretty much its only viable set. If Infernape were to rise, it should be because of the effectiveness of its Scarf set, which has the niche of rkilling SG Magearna as well as Volcarona. Most offensive sets are irrelevant and shouldn't be taken into consideration for its rise imo, even less now that it's relatively higher compared to its initial ranking.
 
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