★ MPL X - Format Discussion

[Elvira]

I agree several of my points have not been throughoutly explained so I will do my best to elaborate them further:

"Competitive engagement" as in tournaments that are outside the premier leagues it is featured: There is no "NDM Cup" to tell us which players are or not prepared, nor an incentive for players within Monotype community to play this tier at all. Part of the reason is that NDM only exists conceptually and not physically: you cannot play it on cartridge, and thus it will never receive official metagame treatment. Even amongst the players that you have mentioned (some of which are part of NDM council so they technically should not count), there is no guarantee that they are experienced at it just because they are established figures in our community. Playing NDM in some tour a year ago does not necessarily mean you are confident to help your team prep for it now or within a month, nor to play it in its highest level, regardless of how good said players are in current gens or oldgens even. Also when you say "some are mainers" you are essentially just proving my point earlier that select individuals will be favored.

Regardless of separating it from the monotype community or not, you have to agree that players that display an interest in NDM only represent a small part of it, and the vast majority of our tier is not actually committing to it (either because of the opportunities offered or because interest displayed in general). This is the same as saying "splitting mono UU or mono STABmons community doesn't make sense" and actually supporting these tiers for MPL. MPL is a high stakes tournament that should represent the monotype community, not a niche-interest of players within monotype. . I am not going to comment on the "most mono auths are also ndm auths" because that certainly should not be related in whether it is a playable slot or not.

Finally, from a spectator perspective, it requires the understanding of the artificial concept of National Dex, which people may not be familiar with. This may not sound like a great deal at first glance but it affects the integrity of the tournament, it is meant to represent Monotype (a metagame which is not the most well seen amongst the other metas in Smogon). Mixing NDM is taking a step towards making MPL just another side PL tournament, and not its own thing.

I'd like to chime in and analyze some key points that you have contributed to the counter argument of NDM being playable for MPL.


1. "you cannot play it on cartridge". This argument seems counter productive of what you specifically are implying. And let me address it in better terms. Stating something is not playable on cartridge doesn't really matter. You can run monotype on the device and rom/rom hack you choose or even play it on switch with the main stream games but end of the day that isn't the same setting as an actual tournament despite being able to uphold them on the cartridge. Two different scenarios (MPL, other tours held on cartridge). NDM provides a sense of balanced while upholding fan favorite "gimmick" or old gen mechanics with Mega's and Z-Crystals.

2. "There is no NDM cup". Essentially I would agree that you are right in that sense but NDM has different tours besides NDMPL. I believe Circuit is another and if I don't have enough examples then so be it but there are other tours aside from premier leagues.



The instance of the small community you noted is true, yes National Dex Monotype does have a smaller community from Monotype which is why I or others like to indulge Monotype to join room tours or even partake in events for it to build a more side by side community with Monotype. The reason its small is because a majority of players are still wanting to use the powerhouse level pokemon that Mono has available and not adapt back to a more balanced metagame. Which is why NDM should* be allowed to be in MPL. MWP carried NDM, ND WC carries NDM, this tier is a known meta even despite the smaller community that it carries in the room. If this tier is being carried into other tournaments some big some small I don't see a reason why a counter argument to a tier that is still in fact mono with more balance and the usage of older generation pokemon shouldn't be allowed to be played.

 

[sasha]

Just reiterating to say I don't think NDM should be in MPL (as people did not read my earlier post and thought I was arguing for its inclusion...XD...) but:

There is no "NDM Cup" to tell us which players are or not prepared, nor an incentive for players within Monotype community to play this tier at all. Part of the reason is that NDM only exists conceptually and not physically: you cannot play it on cartridge, and thus it will never receive official metagame treatment.

This is the same logic people use to keep Monotype as a tier isolated from officials, and I find it insanely ironic this is a lot of the rhetoric being thrown around considering this entire tier is victim to it. Having to find out which players can play a tier is your responsibility as a manager, and if you don't know your own community that you're managing in that speaks to your capability as a manager, and I'm saying this as someone who won my first Monotype team tournament as manager, as well as managing a very large handful of tours that aren't Monotype related, reaching playoffs and more. Your cartridge argument makes no sense either. Smogon tiers are all made up, so.....I am going to assume your point was that National Dex is a mickey tier because it is not possible on cart as dexit exists. But this doesn't really mean anything and just seems like a random buzz point to put down National Dex. All Smogon tiers are conceptual lol. The only official formatting on cart is VGC. Sure, there isn't an incentive to play NDM, I 100% agree, but thats literally because none exists. Including NDM in a real Monotype tournament would give it incentive. Incentive is something that has to be brought to the table it doesn't just appear. The only incentive to play BW Monotype is Mono Cup and MPL. If BW Mono was in neither of these then no one would be playing it.

Also when you say "some are mainers" you are essentially just proving my point earlier that select individuals will be favored.

This is how every premier league works. You aren't going to buy a player who has had their breakout scene in CG and randomly slot them in BW. People don't buy players who main one tier and put them in others. Obviously there is nuance to this, it happens, people can play more than one tier but you get my point I hope.

I understand I'm contradicting myself by fighting "for" NDM and saying it shouldn't be in MPL in the same breath, but some of the arguments I've seen are just awful. I'm counterpointing bad arguments, not arguing for NDM's inclusion, before someone tries twisting my words again.

We're playing a Tournament with no stakes besides a custom avatar which all of Smogon has, and an MPL Champion banner. Mons is a hobby. Why are we so pitted against each other because a community wants inclusion. We should be doing better than this

 

[TheWyvernKing]

Figured I'd make a post, but even though I'm kinda in the whatever boat, ultimately NDM shouldn't be in the tour.

The fact that we're seeing NDM in MOMPL already, as well as MWP, sets a precedent in my eyes that it's an OM tier, not to mention Natdex is already in two major tours. MPL, at the end of the day, is a tour showcasing the official meta for every mono generation together. If I was to ask "Why isn't Monotype in MOMPL", it's because Monotype isn't an Other Meta silly. Likewise, Natdex isn't an Official Meta.

NDM at the end of the day is a theorymons tier. Not only that, but it's been viewed as a theorymons tier since it's inception, the OM has existed for years now and it's not existed in MPL in the past for a reason. To add to this, the mechanics themselves and basis of the tier have a few things I consider misrepresentative of past mechanics. I mean isn't there a whole argument about Z Moves existing - after all, many Z Effects right now are completely missing for new non attacking moves. Essentially, we're looking at a whole mechanic where the effect has been filled in for attacking moves and completely missed for status effects. This is simply an inaccurate portrayal of the mechanic. Like it or not, every past mechanic and move used is based on an assumption. It doesn't make sense to me, that a tier based on the premise of adding in missing pokemon, past mechanics, missing moves, etc, should in any way be representative in a tour that's entire purpose is to present the current and past official metas of Monotype.

If NDM should be in MPL, I want to hear how come NDM should be an Official Meta. You can't exactly be in Monotype Premiere League and the Monotype Other Metas Premiere League simultaneously. So, how is NDM an Official Meta, and not an Other Meta. If it's decided to be an Other Meta, the argument is how come Natdex should get special treatment to be in 3 Major Team tours, including the premiere league designated for Official Metas.

 

[style.css]

If NDM should be in MPL, I want to hear how come NDM should be an Official Meta. You can't exactly be in Monotype Premiere League and the Monotype Other Metas Premiere League simultaneously. So, how is NDM an Official Meta, and not an Other Meta. If it's decided to be an Other Meta, the argument is how come Natdex should get special treatment to be in 3 Major Team tours, including the premiere league designated for Official Metas.

This is exactly right and one of the main things that should be answered for NDM to be considered. NDM should not be in both MOMPL and MPL, that's a fact.

NDM at the start of this gen has been growing a ton and one way that was happening was by getting more inclusion in the Monotype community (which makes the most sense since in practical perspectives it should be part of Mono more than ND; something I won't get in to here though). The first step was MWP IV, then MOMPL and MWP V. With MWP, NDMPL, NDPL, NDWC and other official tours NDM has shown to be a balanced and enjoyable tier that very much stands above any OM (see my original post about how NDM isn't even an OM in the sense that most people think it is). The next logical step for NDM's growth is inclusion in MPL which by default should exclude it from MOMPL.

NDM needed to take small steps to gain momentum, interest and respect as a format before it could have any reason to be discussed in MPL. There is no way any tier would ever go from no inclusion straight to inclusion in the top tour of our format. That was NDM's goal from the beginning; become "officially" recognized within the Monotype community as a sister tier/gen as that (regardless of the technical classifications on forums) is the best way for Monotype's community to grow. We should take advantage of large untapped communities that want to be included.

 

[Floss]

Budget -
From what I've seen, most people have no strong opinion on whether the budget should stay at 130k or reduce to 100k. I will give some justifications for why switching to a 100k budget makes the most sense to me. Firstly, the value of retains is exaggerated compared to other tours due to a higher average cost per starter. For example, RUPL has 100k for 8 slots, while NUPL has 120k for 10 slots. Therefore, the 3k increase that is common for retains has a significantly lesser impact on retains in MPL, compared to the retains in other tours that employ the same system. In the same way, a base price of 10k for retains is much more valuable in MPL than other tours. While there are potential ways to fix this (up base price to 15k, up retain increases to increments of 5k), these are more theoretical in nature and may not fix the problem. The simplest way to solve this issue is moving to a 100k for 8 slots system.

Another aspect that I feel has been complicated by the 130k budget is finding an appropriate manager pricing system. It has been acknowledged that the system manager pricing has been volatile in the number of changes every year, and a fixed price system does not fairly take into account the skill level of the players self-buying. While some may argue that there will be detractors to any pricing system, it does not mean we should stop aiming for a better solution. I think a variable pricing system, using inspiration from UUPL and RUPL, could be a solution to this issue. Considering those tours have closer frameworks to a budget of 100k for 8 slots, it also seems ideal in this sense to change the budget.

Pre-draft purchases -
My personal opinion is that self-buys should be limited to a total of 2, and can be arranged in any combination (2 manager buys, 1 manager buy and 1 retain, or 2 retains). I haven't seen much aversion to the topic of retains, but there has been some push-back on whether 2 manager buys should be allowed. I feel that a variable pricing system would assuage some concerns on this front regarding the exploitation of past fixed price systems, and increasing the price for managers if they have 2 self-buys is also another option (RUPL formula can be considered as a framework for this). I would be in favour of incorporating both of these ideas as a part of the manager pricing system.

4th slot -
My preference for the 4th slot is SV4, then SV Bo3, and finally NDM. I prefer a Bo1 for SV as opposed to a Bo3 due to the increased building load that would result from needing 6 SV teams built per week, which can lead to an overall reduction in quality of the teams being produced, player burnout, and more recycling of teams to manage the need for teams. A Bo3 requiring players to play more games for the same reward as any other slot is another factor that does not endear me to any form of Bo3 slot.

On the topic of NDM, I do not think there is any reason for the tier to have more representation than any of the older generations in our major tours (discounting Monotype FPL and MOMPL from this characterisation). As it stands, our older generations are represented in MPL, and OMs like NDM are represented in MWP. Keeping this current balance seems appropriate to me, as MWP was originally created to shift away OMs from MPL. While I agree that NDM is the most favoured of the 'Monotype OMs', I do not feel this alone warrants the tier a place in MPL, which is meant to showcase the CG and old gens of the Monotype tier.

 

[ken]

Good morning everyone! Thanks for the thoughtful discussions and input.

At this time, we'll be moving forward, meaning this thread is now closed.

The format for MPL X will include the following 8 slots:

• SV
• SV
• SV
• SV
• SS
• SM
• ORAS
• BW

We will be changing the budget and pricing for managers/retains this year, details below:

• 100k budget
• Teams may purchase/retain a total of 2 managers/players prior to the draft, with any combination of manager selfbuys and retains allowed
  • e.g. 2 manager selfbuys/1 selfbuy + 1 retain/2 retains
  • Retains will be tierlocked to their signup from MPL IX
• Manager pricing will be determined utilizing the formula below:

Manager price = (M-1) * 500 * # of wins last MPL + (P + 3000) + 750 * # of wins last MPL - 1000 * # of losses last MPL
M being the number of selfbuys performed by the team (1 or 2).
P being the price of said player in their last MPL capped at 17000.
If they never played MPL or if their price was lower than 10000, it defaults to 10000. The result is rounded up.

As we previously did not use a 100k budget, prices from MPL IX will be scaled accordingly prior to being used in the equation, being rounded down to the nearest multiple of 500.

With all this out of the way, manager signups will be posted shortly!