Announcement np: SV OU Suspect Process, Round 11 - We Didn't Start the Fire

[DaddyBuzzwole]

the anti-ban crowds

i mean, it's literally just the one guy. there's no crowd because virtually everyone capable of getting reqs wants this thing to go. and while i have to commend ctc for his efforts, he's not changing anything with his textbook mixture of cherry-picked statistics and outright insults

 

[Heatranator]

i mean, it's literally just the one guy. there's no crowd because virtually everyone capable of getting reqs wants this thing to go. and while i have to commend ctc for his efforts, he's not changing anything with his textbook mixture of cherry-picked statistics and outright insults

There was one other person who said gouging was alright, that's the only reason why I said that statement. To be fair, it is basically ctc aside from one other post, so I get where you are coming from.
I also don't like the insults, that is just wrong on him and its just making his point worse, idk if he is trying to be funny but he is failing miserably. We should try to be respectful of people's opinions, if they disagree with us then that is fine, but if you are going to insult anything (which I don't think you should) insult the points, not the person. I have sadly fallen into that trap a couple of times and I'm trying to get better at not doing it.

 

[Nanulak]

I found out I can’t exactly vote thanks to not enough GXE, but I’d still vote DNB

Fire’s strong yet manageable. While, yes, Gouging Fire has many strategies, they can all be walled one way or another. I’ll explain my DNB vote, but just note, weather isn’t something considered by me. It isn’t important and many Pokémon thrive off of weather. Tera isn’t important either, as Teraing just breaks everything, and so if sacrificing to beat it, as many other Pokémon might rely on that as well to be beat. Here are some stuff I noticed, however, that Gouging Fire typically uses:

Protosynthesis: Proto is one of the reasons for Fire’s dominance in OU, but it can be countered. Gouging Fire will always get Proto from either Sun, which can be taken away by Pelipper thanks to Drizzle, and Booster Energy, which can be averted via Whirlwind from Ting-Lu. This could also be countered by Skarmory if you give it Sturdy and Roar/Whirlwind. Now, to introduce the Pokémon I believe could be a counter to Fire, Galarian Weezing. While a UU Pokémon, it can also deal with this, as it has moves and two abilities fit for it. This Geezing, the term I’m using to shorten Galarian Weezing, can use Neutralizing Gas to get rid of Protosynthesis, letting it conquer that

EQ and Flare Blitz/Heat Crash/Raging Fury: While each really deserves its own separate argument, I must say that these moves can be countered. Such a counter is Primarina, as seen in the in-depth. Primarina has low defenses yet tanks some EQs. You could also potentially run Specs to maybe be able to defeat it, or Liquid Voice. Mentioned before, Pelipper also handles this threat. It resists those moves, and has a really nice 100 base Defense to boot. Another includes Balloon Heatran with Flash Fire. This is completely immune to Gouging Fire, and mostly forces a switch-out. Scor can also potentially deal with this problem, as it’s immune to EQ and the reasons when I talk about Morning Sun. Lando-T also deals with it, as seen below in the in-depth and because it’s I mmune to EQ and has Rocky Helmet to punish those Fire attacks. Finally, let me again introduce Geezing. This time, we can take advantage of Levitate, to be immune to those EQs, and it’s very good base 120 defense to tank those Fire attacks. Or, alternatively, you could run a Water Tera to do that.

Morning Sun: Another reason why Fire is such a problem is because of its recovery. However, there are quite a few options to put a dent in this. First and best, we have Primarina. Primarina can take advantage of Psychic Noise to do so, making Fire unable to recover. We also have Taunt from the many taunters, such as Lando-T, Glowking, and Lu. Another option is setting up Rain, Snow, or Sand with Pelipper, Alolan Ninetales, or TTar, respectively, as that’ll decrease the amount healed by quite a bit. Lastly, we have Toxic stall. Of course, we have our go-to Scor, where Toxic is a staple to it. Toxic will eventually start to deal so much damage that Morning Sun won’t do much, and the Fire is as good as dead. Another Pokémon to be able to do this is Geezing, who also has access to Toxic

Choice Band: Another key thing is Fire’s potential Band, which lets it be a monster with Raging Fury. However, even Bands have their counters. Knock Off. Specifically Pokémon with Knock Off that are faster and can potentially then beat it, or just sacrifice Knock Off, such as Meow as sacrifice, Weavile as killer, Moon as killer, Tusk as killer, and the list goes on

DDance: The last key part to Fire’s reign, it can also be negated. You do this with Haze/Clear Smog, which eliminate the stat changes. This means that Torkoal, despite setting up Sun, is available for this role. Another Pokémon that can use Clear Smog is, you guessed it, Geezing, giving it another way to counter Fire


If you thought I was done there, look at this. These are records of Lando-T, Primarina, and Geezing and how they are able to defeat it.

0 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gouging Fire: 254-300 (72.3 - 85.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Using the OU Fast Utility set for Lando-T and the OU Offensive Dragon Dance set for Fire, we can see that Lando-T has a clear edge against Fire. It’d 2HKO, and Fire would also do the same with Flare Blitz, assuming that it somehow doesn’t get Lando-T’s Intimidate drop. If it did, it would be a 3HKO instead. Not to mention recoil from the move. “What about if the Gouging Fire Tera’d?” You might ask. Well, if the Fire Tera’d Fairy (the Tera type for this set), EQ from Lando-T will be a 3HKO. And yes, Lando-T is faster than Fire. Now, what if Gouging Fire used Morning Sun while Tera’d? Well, I made a battle to show what would happen: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2075126832-4v8knxfjxd89oarhh01uzp57n8lf3wepw
I didn’t even Tera on Lando-T. It just freely bodied Fire. Definitely a counter

252+ SpA Primarina Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tera Fairy Gouging Fire: 178-210 (50.7 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Here we see a Primarina, the OU Assault Vest set, bodying a Gouging Fire, the OU Offensive Dragon Dance set. Now then, is this crazy or what? Especially since, using EQ, Fire can’t even 2HKO Primarina. And using Tera wouldn’t have saved Fire, either, as we can see in the spread. We can, however, take in account that Gouging Fire outspeeds Primarina. However, with EQ Fire still couldn’t beat Primarina, unless it got lucky and crit. Twice. Oh yeah, did I mention that the 3HKO was only a 6.1% chance to? Definitely a Gouging Fire check

This one is too complicated to explain in a damage calculator sense, so here’s the Geezing set I used. The Fire set is the same as always, btw. Note that the set is what I’d use, and not specifically suited to Fire
Weezing-Galar @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 Def / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Serious Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Toxic
- Clear Smog
- Protect
- Sludge Wave
Now, for the replay. Note that I know what each Pokémon’s moves are, and will be using specific moves accordingly. The replay: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2075206575
We can clearly see here, that, while barely winning, Geezing can defeat Fire. Thanks to the talk about my counters to Fire’s strategies above, I won’t need to share the deeper stuff

This is just a piece of how Fire can be countered. This is why I’m voting DNB

 

[Heatranator]

I found out I can’t exactly vote thanks to not enough GXE, but I’d still vote DNB

Fire’s strong yet manageable. While, yes, Gouging Fire has many strategies, they can all be walled one way or another. I’ll explain my DNB vote, but just note, weather isn’t something considered by me. It isn’t important and many Pokémon thrive off of weather. Tera isn’t important either, as Teraing just breaks everything, and so if sacrificing to beat it, as many other Pokémon might rely on that as well to be beat. Here are some stuff I noticed, however, that Gouging Fire typically uses:

Protosynthesis: Proto is one of the reasons for Fire’s dominance in OU, but it can be countered. Gouging Fire will always get Proto from either Sun, which can be taken away by Pelipper thanks to Drizzle, and Booster Energy, which can be averted via Whirlwind from Ting-Lu. This could also be countered by Skarmory if you give it Sturdy and Roar/Whirlwind. Now, to introduce the Pokémon I believe could be a counter to Fire, Galarian Weezing. While a UU Pokémon, it can also deal with this, as it has moves and two abilities fit for it. This Geezing, the term I’m using to shorten Galarian Weezing, can use Neutralizing Gas to get rid of Protosynthesis, letting it conquer that

EQ and Flare Blitz/Heat Crash/Raging Fury: While each really deserves its own separate argument, I must say that these moves can be countered. Such a counter is Primarina, as seen in the in-depth. Primarina has low defenses yet tanks some EQs. You could also potentially run Specs to maybe be able to defeat it, or Liquid Voice. Mentioned before, Pelipper also handles this threat. It resists those moves, and has a really nice 100 base Defense to boot. Another includes Balloon Heatran with Flash Fire. This is completely immune to Gouging Fire, and mostly forces a switch-out. Scor can also potentially deal with this problem, as it’s immune to EQ and the reasons when I talk about Morning Sun. Lando-T also deals with it, as seen below in the in-depth and because it’s I mmune to EQ and has Rocky Helmet to punish those Fire attacks. Finally, let me again introduce Geezing. This time, we can take advantage of Levitate, to be immune to those EQs, and it’s very good base 120 defense to tank those Fire attacks. Or, alternatively, you could run a Water Tera to do that.

Morning Sun: Another reason why Fire is such a problem is because of its recovery. However, there are quite a few options to put a dent in this. First and best, we have Primarina. Primarina can take advantage of Psychic Noise to do so, making Fire unable to recover. We also have Taunt from the many taunters, such as Lando-T, Glowking, and Lu. Another option is setting up Rain, Snow, or Sand with Pelipper, Alolan Ninetales, or TTar, respectively, as that’ll decrease the amount healed by quite a bit. Lastly, we have Toxic stall. Of course, we have our go-to Scor, where Toxic is a staple to it. Toxic will eventually start to deal so much damage that Morning Sun won’t do much, and the Fire is as good as dead. Another Pokémon to be able to do this is Geezing, who also has access to Toxic

Choice Band: Another key thing is Fire’s potential Band, which lets it be a monster with Raging Fury. However, even Bands have their counters. Knock Off. Specifically Pokémon with Knock Off that are faster and can potentially then beat it, or just sacrifice Knock Off, such as Meow as sacrifice, Weavile as killer, Moon as killer, Tusk as killer, and the list goes on

DDance: The last key part to Fire’s reign, it can also be negated. You do this with Haze/Clear Smog, which eliminate the stat changes. This means that Torkoal, despite setting up Sun, is available for this role. Another Pokémon that can use Clear Smog is, you guessed it, Geezing, giving it another way to counter Fire


If you thought I was done there, look at this. These are records of Lando-T, Primarina, and Geezing and how they are able to defeat it.

0 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gouging Fire: 254-300 (72.3 - 85.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Using the OU Fast Utility set for Lando-T and the OU Offensive Dragon Dance set for Fire, we can see that Lando-T has a clear edge against Fire. It’d 2HKO, and Fire would also do the same with Flare Blitz, assuming that it somehow doesn’t get Lando-T’s Intimidate drop. If it did, it would be a 3HKO instead. Not to mention recoil from the move. “What about if the Gouging Fire Tera’d?” You might ask. Well, if the Fire Tera’d Fairy (the Tera type for this set), EQ from Lando-T will be a 3HKO. And yes, Lando-T is faster than Fire. Now, what if Gouging Fire used Morning Sun while Tera’d? Well, I made a battle to show what would happen: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2075126832-4v8knxfjxd89oarhh01uzp57n8lf3wepw
I didn’t even Tera on Lando-T. It just freely bodied Fire. Definitely a counter

252+ SpA Primarina Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tera Fairy Gouging Fire: 178-210 (50.7 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Here we see a Primarina, the OU Assault Vest set, bodying a Gouging Fire, the OU Offensive Dragon Dance set. Now then, is this crazy or what? Especially since, using EQ, Fire can’t even 2HKO Primarina. And using Tera wouldn’t have saved Fire, either, as we can see in the spread. We can, however, take in account that Gouging Fire outspeeds Primarina. However, with EQ Fire still couldn’t beat Primarina, unless it got lucky and crit. Twice. Oh yeah, did I mention that the 3HKO was only a 6.1% chance to? Definitely a Gouging Fire check

This one is too complicated to explain in a damage calculator sense, so here’s the Geezing set I used. The Fire set is the same as always, btw. Note that the set is what I’d use, and not specifically suited to Fire
Weezing-Galar @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 Def / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Serious Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Toxic
- Clear Smog
- Protect
- Sludge Wave
Now, for the replay. Note that I know what each Pokémon’s moves are, and will be using specific moves accordingly. The replay: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2075206575
We can clearly see here, that, while barely winning, Geezing can defeat Fire. Thanks to the talk about my counters to Fire’s strategies above, I won’t need to share the deeper stuff

This is just a piece of how Fire can be countered. This is why I’m voting DNB

One thing you mentioned is that Geezing can take away protosynthesis from Gouging, but then you say you can avoid e-quake with levitate.
72 Atk Gouging Fire Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 252 Def Weezing-Galar: 109-129 (40.2 - 47.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Even then, you are getting 3hit ko'd, which is better than a lot of mons. And if it is +1 when you switch in geezing, it will be 2hit ko'd even after you clear smog.
252+ Atk Gouging Fire Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 252 Def Weezing-Galar: 154-182 (56.8 - 67.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
If you run neutralising gas to stop proto shenanigans, then you get 2hit ko'd from e-quake.
Cool set, but it doesn't move the needle that much on the issue that gouging has.
Also, for primarina.
252+ Atk Gouging Fire Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Primarina: 96-113 (26.3 - 31%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Primarina will most likely not be at full health since hazards are so abundant. This is max hp, max defense and + nature. However, in return for that, primarina can't 2hit ko gouging.
+1 252+ Atk Gouging Fire Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Primarina: 143-169 (39.2 - 46.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Again, once gouging gets up a dd, primarina can't even switch in reliably.
+1 252+ Atk Gouging Fire Earthquake vs. 80 HP / 0 Def Primarina: 210-248 (65.4 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Gouging Fire Earthquake vs. 80 HP / 0 Def Primarina: 141-166 (43.9 - 51.7%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO
This is if primarina is standard and wants to 2hit ko gouging. Even then at +1 it can't switch in
Landorus-T is one of the better gouging switch ins, but it still has to take on many other threats on a team.
-1 252+ Atk Gouging Fire Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 220+ Def Landorus-Therian: 105-124 (27.4 - 32.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Still has to take significant damage to take on gouging.

TLDR, only lando is a safe switch in, the others get obliterated very easily.

 

[Dead by Daylight]

I found out I can’t exactly vote thanks to not enough GXE, but I’d still vote DNB

Fire’s strong yet manageable. While, yes, Gouging Fire has many strategies, they can all be walled one way or another. I’ll explain my DNB vote, but just note, weather isn’t something considered by me. It isn’t important and many Pokémon thrive off of weather. Tera isn’t important either, as Teraing just breaks everything, and so if sacrificing to beat it, as many other Pokémon might rely on that as well to be beat. Here are some stuff I noticed, however, that Gouging Fire typically uses:

Protosynthesis: Proto is one of the reasons for Fire’s dominance in OU, but it can be countered. Gouging Fire will always get Proto from either Sun, which can be taken away by Pelipper thanks to Drizzle, and Booster Energy, which can be averted via Whirlwind from Ting-Lu. This could also be countered by Skarmory if you give it Sturdy and Roar/Whirlwind. Now, to introduce the Pokémon I believe could be a counter to Fire, Galarian Weezing. While a UU Pokémon, it can also deal with this, as it has moves and two abilities fit for it. This Geezing, the term I’m using to shorten Galarian Weezing, can use Neutralizing Gas to get rid of Protosynthesis, letting it conquer that

EQ and Flare Blitz/Heat Crash/Raging Fury: While each really deserves its own separate argument, I must say that these moves can be countered. Such a counter is Primarina, as seen in the in-depth. Primarina has low defenses yet tanks some EQs. You could also potentially run Specs to maybe be able to defeat it, or Liquid Voice. Mentioned before, Pelipper also handles this threat. It resists those moves, and has a really nice 100 base Defense to boot. Another includes Balloon Heatran with Flash Fire. This is completely immune to Gouging Fire, and mostly forces a switch-out. Scor can also potentially deal with this problem, as it’s immune to EQ and the reasons when I talk about Morning Sun. Lando-T also deals with it, as seen below in the in-depth and because it’s I mmune to EQ and has Rocky Helmet to punish those Fire attacks. Finally, let me again introduce Geezing. This time, we can take advantage of Levitate, to be immune to those EQs, and it’s very good base 120 defense to tank those Fire attacks. Or, alternatively, you could run a Water Tera to do that.

Morning Sun: Another reason why Fire is such a problem is because of its recovery. However, there are quite a few options to put a dent in this. First and best, we have Primarina. Primarina can take advantage of Psychic Noise to do so, making Fire unable to recover. We also have Taunt from the many taunters, such as Lando-T, Glowking, and Lu. Another option is setting up Rain, Snow, or Sand with Pelipper, Alolan Ninetales, or TTar, respectively, as that’ll decrease the amount healed by quite a bit. Lastly, we have Toxic stall. Of course, we have our go-to Scor, where Toxic is a staple to it. Toxic will eventually start to deal so much damage that Morning Sun won’t do much, and the Fire is as good as dead. Another Pokémon to be able to do this is Geezing, who also has access to Toxic

Choice Band: Another key thing is Fire’s potential Band, which lets it be a monster with Raging Fury. However, even Bands have their counters. Knock Off. Specifically Pokémon with Knock Off that are faster and can potentially then beat it, or just sacrifice Knock Off, such as Meow as sacrifice, Weavile as killer, Moon as killer, Tusk as killer, and the list goes on

DDance: The last key part to Fire’s reign, it can also be negated. You do this with Haze/Clear Smog, which eliminate the stat changes. This means that Torkoal, despite setting up Sun, is available for this role. Another Pokémon that can use Clear Smog is, you guessed it, Geezing, giving it another way to counter Fire


If you thought I was done there, look at this. These are records of Lando-T, Primarina, and Geezing and how they are able to defeat it.

0 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gouging Fire: 254-300 (72.3 - 85.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Using the OU Fast Utility set for Lando-T and the OU Offensive Dragon Dance set for Fire, we can see that Lando-T has a clear edge against Fire. It’d 2HKO, and Fire would also do the same with Flare Blitz, assuming that it somehow doesn’t get Lando-T’s Intimidate drop. If it did, it would be a 3HKO instead. Not to mention recoil from the move. “What about if the Gouging Fire Tera’d?” You might ask. Well, if the Fire Tera’d Fairy (the Tera type for this set), EQ from Lando-T will be a 3HKO. And yes, Lando-T is faster than Fire. Now, what if Gouging Fire used Morning Sun while Tera’d? Well, I made a battle to show what would happen: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2075126832-4v8knxfjxd89oarhh01uzp57n8lf3wepw
I didn’t even Tera on Lando-T. It just freely bodied Fire. Definitely a counter

252+ SpA Primarina Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tera Fairy Gouging Fire: 178-210 (50.7 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Here we see a Primarina, the OU Assault Vest set, bodying a Gouging Fire, the OU Offensive Dragon Dance set. Now then, is this crazy or what? Especially since, using EQ, Fire can’t even 2HKO Primarina. And using Tera wouldn’t have saved Fire, either, as we can see in the spread. We can, however, take in account that Gouging Fire outspeeds Primarina. However, with EQ Fire still couldn’t beat Primarina, unless it got lucky and crit. Twice. Oh yeah, did I mention that the 3HKO was only a 6.1% chance to? Definitely a Gouging Fire check

This one is too complicated to explain in a damage calculator sense, so here’s the Geezing set I used. The Fire set is the same as always, btw. Note that the set is what I’d use, and not specifically suited to Fire
Weezing-Galar @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 Def / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Serious Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Toxic
- Clear Smog
- Protect
- Sludge Wave
Now, for the replay. Note that I know what each Pokémon’s moves are, and will be using specific moves accordingly. The replay: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2075206575
We can clearly see here, that, while barely winning, Geezing can defeat Fire. Thanks to the talk about my counters to Fire’s strategies above, I won’t need to share the deeper stuff

This is just a piece of how Fire can be countered. This is why I’m voting DNB

While I do agree that Gouging is checked by some decent mons in the metagame right now such as Landorus-T and Primarina, your post simply doesn't offer enough viable answers to it. Adding fuel to the fire (pun intended) is the fact that neither of its main checks have reliable recovery, and Weezy-G is sadly unviable in this metagame.

Protosynthesis: Proto is one of the reasons for Fire’s dominance in OU, but it can be countered. Gouging Fire will always get Proto from either Sun, which can be taken away by Pelipper thanks to Drizzle, and Booster Energy, which can be averted via Whirlwind from Ting-Lu. This could also be countered by Skarmory if you give it Sturdy and Roar/Whirlwind. Now, to introduce the Pokémon I believe could be a counter to Fire, Galarian Weezing. While a UU Pokémon, it can also deal with this, as it has moves and two abilities fit for it. This Geezing, the term I’m using to shorten Galarian Weezing, can use Neutralizing Gas to get rid of Protosynthesis, letting it conquer that

Protosynthesis Booster Gouging isn't something you see too often since most Gouging run DD + HDB, and you'll usually see Protosynthesis active mainly on Sun teams with Choice Band Gouging. I don't think this is too much of a worrying set. Skarmory is also...not a counter? Ok, it can phaze Gouging out once, but then you've lost one Pokemon to force a threat out. Isn't that a bit overbearing? Not to mention this strategy fails with hazards set, which are a key part in this OU meta with Gholdengo's prevalence. Galarian Weezing is also not a counter as it just gets hit with a Fire STAB move, and Neutralizing Gas makes it weak to Gouging's EQ.

EQ and Flare Blitz/Heat Crash/Raging Fury: While each really deserves its own separate argument, I must say that these moves can be countered. Such a counter is Primarina, as seen in the in-depth. Primarina has low defenses yet tanks some EQs. You could also potentially run Specs to maybe be able to defeat it, or Liquid Voice. Mentioned before, Pelipper also handles this threat. It resists those moves, and has a really nice 100 base Defense to boot. Another includes Balloon Heatran with Flash Fire. This is completely immune to Gouging Fire, and mostly forces a switch-out. Scor can also potentially deal with this problem, as it’s immune to EQ and the reasons when I talk about Morning Sun. Lando-T also deals with it, as seen below in the in-depth and because it’s I mmune to EQ and has Rocky Helmet to punish those Fire attacks. Finally, let me again introduce Geezing. This time, we can take advantage of Levitate, to be immune to those EQs, and it’s very good base 120 defense to tank those Fire attacks. Or, alternatively, you could run a Water Tera to do that.

A big issue here is that Gouging is able to force some progress against most of these threats except Air Balloon Tran and Pelipper, while they don't have reliable recovery and cannot come in enough times over the course of a hazard-filled game to repeatedly check Gouging due to this.

Morning Sun: Another reason why Fire is such a problem is because of its recovery. However, there are quite a few options to put a dent in this. First and best, we have Primarina. Primarina can take advantage of Psychic Noise to do so, making Fire unable to recover. We also have Taunt from the many taunters, such as Lando-T, Glowking, and Lu. Another option is setting up Rain, Snow, or Sand with Pelipper, Alolan Ninetales, or TTar, respectively, as that’ll decrease the amount healed by quite a bit. Lastly, we have Toxic stall. Of course, we have our go-to Scor, where Toxic is a staple to it. Toxic will eventually start to deal so much damage that Morning Sun won’t do much, and the Fire is as good as dead. Another Pokémon to be able to do this is Geezing, who also has access to Toxic

Choice Band: Another key thing is Fire’s potential Band, which lets it be a monster with Raging Fury. However, even Bands have their counters. Knock Off. Specifically Pokémon with Knock Off that are faster and can potentially then beat it, or just sacrifice Knock Off, such as Meow as sacrifice, Weavile as killer, Moon as killer, Tusk as killer, and the list goes on

Sure, Primarina can do that, but it's not going to be in a position to do that every time Gouging comes in. It will eventually be able to recover off the damage you inflicted to its rather high bulk. Glowking and Ting-Lu also don't run Taunt, like, ever? I'm not even sure if Glowking learns Taunt. You also mentioned

but just note, weather isn’t something considered by me. It isn’t important and many Pokémon thrive off of weather.

so the weather argument doesn't hold up. Hail and Sand aren't great in OU either, so the only real check there is Pelipper. Any Gouging Fire player with a brain is not staying in on Gliscor and getting Toxic'd unless they can 2HKO or OHKO it.

CB sets are also incredibly powerful and blow away answers to the normal DD variants, and sacrificing a mon to Knock it is not wise in my eyes considering that opens up so much chances for other teammates to win on the Sun teams CB finds itself on, usually. Weavile also can't kill it very effectively unless Gouging is heavily chipped.

Overall, this post comes off as somewhat misinformed on the OU metagame as well as how to play around Gouging Fire. I don't have a strong opinion and am not experienced enough as of this meta to have one, but if you're going to have an opinion you've gotta back it up well.

 

[toshimelonhead]

The Defensive Dragon Dance set broke Gouging Fire for me. Once people realized that Breaking Swipe allowed it to beat Dondozo (let alone the CB set 2HKOing in Sun), it lost an otherwise very reliable check. I quickly threw together a Gouging Fire Sun team (haven't gotten reqs yet), but here are some sample replays of the team doing damage on the mid/high ladder:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2075123399?p2
TL;DR: Gouging Fire single-handedly breaks apart standard stall thanks to Breaking Swipe

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2075132318?p2
TL;DR Gouging Fire turns an otherwise unwinnable matchup and beats Great Tusk, Iron Crown, and Dragonite

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2075219914
TL;DR Gouging Fire finishes a sweep against a 1900-level opponent

I do think there is some time for people to adapt to Gouging Fire, but it's not good when it can regularly beat the standard blanket physical checks with the right move set. There's still more testing and SPL replays I want to watch, but I am leaning ban at the moment if I go for reqs.

 

[Anchor9]

I don’t exactly agree with quacc ‘s statistics. While the statistics provided do make some sense, it’s slightly misleading. Meowscarada and Skarmory are falling with balance, and it’s not completely Gourging Fire’s fault. There is a massive amount of threats that balance has to account for. Larry, Joe, Karl, Dave, Tim, their parents, their grandparents, their cousins, and their cousins twice removed are constantly straining balance teambuilding. Really, the same case could be used for Raging Bolt, Kingambit, and Kyurem. There are too many variables to count to put balance’s fall on Gourging Fire.

I also don’t really agree with CTC either. Srn made some good points to disassemble CTC’s statistics. Win percentage tells a bit but doesn’t exactly determine whether a Mon is broken or not.

The statistics I think would make the best point (and I believe these exist, tell me if I’m wrong) are the ones showing how interactions between Gouging Fire and its various checks / counters play out. Like what percentage of the time is Gouging Fire forced to swap out, is KOed, or KOes.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

The statistics I think would make the best point (and I believe these exist, tell me if I’m wrong) are the ones showing how interactions between Gouging Fire and its various checks / counters play out. Like what percentage of the time is Gouging Fire forced to swap out, is KOed, or KOes.

all right, here's the list of what are, statistically, gouging fire's "various checks/counters"—that is, everything that makes it switch out or kills it more than 50% of the time:

 

[Nanulak]

While I do agree that Gouging is checked by some decent mons in the metagame right now such as Landorus-T and Primarina, your post simply doesn't offer enough viable answers to it. Adding fuel to the fire (pun intended) is the fact that neither of its main checks have reliable recovery, and Weezy-G is sadly unviable in this metagame.


Protosynthesis Booster Gouging isn't something you see too often since most Gouging run DD + HDB, and you'll usually see Protosynthesis active mainly on Sun teams with Choice Band Gouging. I don't think this is too much of a worrying set. Skarmory is also...not a counter? Ok, it can phaze Gouging out once, but then you've lost one Pokemon to force a threat out. Isn't that a bit overbearing? Not to mention this strategy fails with hazards set, which are a key part in this OU meta with Gholdengo's prevalence. Galarian Weezing is also not a counter as it just gets hit with a Fire STAB move, and Neutralizing Gas makes it weak to Gouging's EQ.


A big issue here is that Gouging is able to force some progress against most of these threats except Air Balloon Tran and Pelipper, while they don't have reliable recovery and cannot come in enough times over the course of a hazard-filled game to repeatedly check Gouging due to this.


Sure, Primarina can do that, but it's not going to be in a position to do that every time Gouging comes in. It will eventually be able to recover off the damage you inflicted to its rather high bulk. Glowking and Ting-Lu also don't run Taunt, like, ever? I'm not even sure if Glowking learns Taunt. You also mentioned

so the weather argument doesn't hold up. Hail and Sand aren't great in OU either, so the only real check there is Pelipper. Any Gouging Fire player with a brain is not staying in on Gliscor and getting Toxic'd unless they can 2HKO or OHKO it.

CB sets are also incredibly powerful and blow away answers to the normal DD variants, and sacrificing a mon to Knock it is not wise in my eyes considering that opens up so much chances for other teammates to win on the Sun teams CB finds itself on, usually. Weavile also can't kill it very effectively unless Gouging is heavily chipped.

Overall, this post comes off as somewhat misinformed on the OU metagame as well as how to play around Gouging Fire. I don't have a strong opinion and am not experienced enough as of this meta to have one, but if you're going to have an opinion you've gotta back it up well.

Oh. Just saw the “no weather” and “here’s weather counters!” Thing. Oops lol. To justify that, we have Pelipper lol. With your information, this means that Heatran, Primarina, Lando-T, and Pelipper are counters. And what about the replays? Those show how frail Fire is (with Lando-T, I couldn’t even use Morning Sun as I didn’t account for Flare Blitz recoil and Rocky Helmet chip lol, so otherwise I might’ve Morning Sunned turn 1 lol). And I guess that Geezing isn’t the best counter, but it does have its merits. And I do know of the Neutralizing Gas/Levitate split off, and that Proto isn’t all that common. The abilities were just two possibilities for Geezing, and Levitate is the better ability to deal with it. Are there any other things I should consider here?

 

[Srn]

Ik professor ctc is hungry for math and facts but what ultimately matters is that the players who achieve reqs will cast their votes based on their own vibes and subjective feelings. That holds true for your next arguments.

"Archaludon was banned with a strong 75% majority, and here is its overall SPL stats:
| 34 | Archaludon | 16 | 5.71% | 56.25% |
It was banned from week 5 onwards, so lets ignore usage and focus on winrate: 56.25% is not close to the overwhelming 70% winrates that mons like sneasler and ursabm had. Clearly, a pokemon does not need to be that good in order to get banned from OU. Your standards for brokenness that a pokemon should reach in order to be banned are much higher than the standards of the voterbase.

The usage of archaludon and rain altogether took a massive drop after week 1 of SPL, but this doesn't change the fact that rain was still so oppressive that bridge got banned by a clear 75% majority weeks after rain's dominant week 1 showing. A pokemon does not need to constantly be getting high winrates and high usage to warrant a ban. The voterbase is going to consider more subjective opinions as well, like how healthy they think the mon is, how easy it is to prep for, what upsides it provides for the metagame health, etc."


Let me address this, once again you are making my argument for me. Arch had a ridic winrate out the gate and rain was a dominant 6-1 or 7-1 in the first week. Then, because we didnt ban arch immediately and let the meta figure out some counterplay, its winrate averaged out to stellar, but not broken, at 56% w a decent sample size. This gradual decline only happened because we let the meta settle and let players adapt to the seemingly overwhelming presence that is arch. Now lets look at the reasons it was banned. Even though its winrate was steadily declining toward a fair 50% and that the meta deemed rain predictable, the mon is standalone a trade monster. It only loses to two mons basically, lu/clod, while other mons all lose the trade because of how oppressive and limiting electro shot is. If u wanna use cherrypicked stats, show arch w1 stats vs sneas/ursa w1 stats and it will reveal a lot more similarities. Again I did not say arch is the same level of broken as sneas and ursa which deserved qb, it is more in line w bax who is a debatable ban but more towards the deserving side. You can literally not name more than 2 switchins for this mon, clod and lu, which makes this mon actually restrictive on building and playing.

In our case, gouge has a myriad switchins/counters and does not pose nearly the same offensive threat as arch, unless on sun, which we established is underpowered. The usage of gouge only saw massive rise because of rain's decline, so if we wait a little longer, perhaps we will see similar 'massive drops in usage' that nerfed archaludon! Also, if your argument is that archaludon wasnt even that broken and it got banned anyways, let me inform you: sometimes the ban crowd is wrong! ever thought about that? Even though arch had a non-overwhelming winrate, its switchins are few and far between, creating very real limitations to building and playing, which is actually why it was banned. Gouge, however, is not nearly as egregious, and we haven't even solved the meta yet so why the rush?

These gradual declines in usage that you're referring to (which happened to arch, and which you are guessing will happen to GF) seem kinda irrelevant bc arch was banned with such a wide majority even after the decline. Idk what waiting will change. I think GF is about as egregious in terms of limited counterplay, but we've hashed that out already.

This got a hearty chuckle outta me

sometimes the ban crowd is wrong! ever thought about that?

So many things I want to say to this, and at the same time, nothing at all. "No" and "Sometimes the DNB crowd is wrong! Ever thought about that?" and "I've been coping about tera for months, you think I agree with the result of every suspect test?" but none of that is worth saying.

Sometimes, nobody on the other side can give you an argument that satisfies you. The voters just vote based on their own vibes and you can accept the result or quit.

Next:
"All the counterplay listed is insufficient to check GF alone. If I slap EP lando-t on my offense and call it a day my ass is getting blasted bc lando-t is the frontline response to 15 different mons and rarely makes it to the endgame healthy enough to handle GF. The rest would be repeating my first post.
Going by gen9ou 1825 stats from February, GF is sitting at #20 in usage at 10.5%, while the bulky grounds that are easy to wear down or often set up fodder for breaking swipe are at higher usage (Tusk at #2, Lando-T at #10, Gliscor at #11) while the sturdier, real counterplay to bulky dd sets are MUCH lower usage (alo at #32, garg at #45, skeledirge #48, etc)."

> when the 56% win rate lando which does good chip and can taunt while also being top 10 usage is not enough for the fringe top 20 usage setup mon
so what is it man, you want to pack a 100% counter to everything on every team? i need sticky barb clef to tank roaring moon now right, and the oldest glue in the meta lando t is all of a sudden 'overwhelmed' and 'not enought to check everything' when it had to check the entirety of the physical meta from zard x to kartana for a decade is making me chuckle.

Lando-t was never some reliable hard wall tho. It's always been prone to chip and getting worn down. It's a good mon but that's just how it is. If your only answer to rmoon, GF, tusk, dnite, lucha, kingambit, zamazenta, and iron boulder is Lando-T, then the rest of your team had better be offensive or you're gonna lose to any team with more than one of the above.

Further:
"That's fair, I just think arguments like "status, unaware, and phazing check x" are really fake and paper thin lol. Same also applied to sneasler, same would apply to chien pao if we throw in "hazards." Vague and amorphous "hazards, status, and phazing" can annoy many broken pokemon like chi-yu and is never good enough to keep a mon in a tier."

So you agree with me that arbitary arguing of how a mon does or doesnt have counters is not pertinent unless we dive deeper and show statistics? which i have shown: 50% winrate and modest usage

The Checks & Counters section to GF from the overall usage statistics last month is as follows:

Some of this makes sense and other stuff is uh
This section is blank on the 1825 usage stats btw lmao.
Unlike threats with immediate power, with bulky set up sweepers like DD swipe GF, it's harder to assess statistically what the solid long term answers are. Like I've said, 50%~ winrates and modest usage prove nothing, as arch was banned by 75% majority under similar conditions. You can't point to these statistics and say "hey GF is fine!"

In addition:
"I've spoken in the past about why I dislike this outlook but lemme say it again. I think this checks and balances system is just creating a MU fish meta. If I bring stall and my opponent brought rain, why is it a good thing that my opponent got "punished for cheese" or whatever? If I bring stall again and my opponent brings glowking BO this time, why is it a good thing that I got "punished for stall"? Are these massive advantages/disadvantages on team preview ok because of some imaginary ecosystem where they beat each other RPS style? I fail to see why this is a good thing. I would much rather have my games decided by skill and not team matchup, and I reject the checks and balances system of MU fishing that you seem to think would lead to a healthy meta. I want every teamstyle to have a solid shot at beating every other teamstyle, not stall>HO>glowking BO>stall where the >'s are super firm."

Nobody says each style has to auto beat or auto lose to another style, the minmaxers just love to maximize each style. New stalls are innovated every day to combat bo, such as max hazards sd ghost scor which can pack up max boots teams. Ho w the right mana/oger set also dismantles stall, which is why oger is so prevalent on offenses. There is no destined and guaranteed a>b>c>a in this cycle, this is merely your own assumptions. Sure, certain styles inherently have a slightly better mu vs others, but this is where techs and innovations come in to make up for inherent shortcomings. This is why in a diverse meta, every style can thrive and every style can tech to beat the other styles that would normally have an edge vs it. Following your argument, if you dont want to have someone 'punished for cheese', you imply everyone should use one honest style of team right? so homogenization of the tier into a boots centric balance would solve the mu fish issue? 'yea lets solve the issue of personal differences by reducing the diversity of the population!' ass argument

You misunderstand my argument. I'm not saying MU advantages/disadvantages should be abolished completely. I know that's impossible and it's a silly goal. You're completely strawmanning by saying I want everyone to use one honest style of team. But existing MU disparities can and should be minimized. There is such a thing as too much diversity, and such a thing as too little. Lowering the diversity of the meta does not mean we dive headfirst into the same 5/6 mons every game, we can strike the right balance. I believe banning threats and reducing teambuilder burden will bring us closer to that balance, and I can only hope that voters agree.

Next:
'I dislike the implication here that "max boots balance" is some endpoint of meta development. Ik that we settled into zap/glowking/ting lu BO towards the end of the home meta and DLC 1 meta, but it's not 100% certain that it would have stayed that way. We didn't get to find out because dlc kept dropping, but we're finally in the home stretch where we can take our time and be relatively certain that meta development won't get reset by content drops.
There are some crucial differences between home/dlc1 and dlc2 meta which make it unlikely that we will reach zap/king/lu BO again. Gliscor as a whole suppressed that playstyle, and we have new tools to pressure gliscor and account for it in the builder like sub serp and skarm. It's also way easier for gliscor to check zapdos than it is to check raging bolt, and we all know which one is in charge rn.'

you are simplifying my prediction of the future. I am saying a gouge ban will decrease the diversity of the meta and may ultimately lead to the saturation of one overwhelming playstyle, which is likely and has already happened before. Saying gliscor is the end all be all to boots spam is ironic since scor is in fact one of the proponents and cores of boots spam.

Decreasing the diversity of the meta a little is OK! It won't necessarily lead to the saturation of one overwhelming playstyle, and if it does, we can take tiering action to address that too. Fear of this is not a strong reason to vote DNB and not very convincing personally.
I also didn't say gliscor suppressed bootspam, I said it suppressed zap/king/lu BO. Those two things aren't the same.

Second to last:
'I've addressed the usage/winrate statistics and the "ecosystem", so let's address the "we should wait and see" argument. I think the council has not been overusing surveys so far, I think they are coming out at a reasonable pace. So when the qualified responders (QRs) give back quickban numbers (4.1/5) on GF, what do you expect council to do? Do you want them to ignore the community and do nothing? I think it's very reasonable to put out a survey, see what the playerbase thinks, and act accordingly. That's exactly what happened: QRs did not want to wait for the meta to settle. They voted 4s and 5s on GF because they want it gone now. You can disagree, but I think you're in the minority.'

no you have not addressed the usage and winrate statistics in any meaningful way. You have not demonstrated that gouge's usage or winrate are beyond acceptable at all levels of ladder. All you did was bring up arch usage and winrate for a few weeks and prove my point that time will let the meta solve even the most broken threats.

I addressed it, you don't have to agree but I said my piece. GF's usage and winrates do not need to be demonstrated to be "beyond acceptable," as we have seen with archaludon's ban. Idk how you can say this is proving your point when arch was banned LOL meta didn't solve shit.

To address the tiering surveys: who says the council has not been overusing the surveys? you are giving just as many unqualified opinions with every point you try to make. Who are the qualified responders? reqs are easier than ever to acquire, and under this ban happy regime it is easier than ever to grind for a day and make the voting reqs.

I'm sorry but this reads like cope. "reqs are easier than ever to acquire" come on dog. "Ban Happy Regime" gimme a break brotha we couldn't even ban kyurem lmaoo

Arch was banned on Feb 17th and the following tiering survey came on Feb 28th, so it was a little under 2 weeks in between. If we came back with nothing over a 4/5 and decided to let the meta settle, nobody would be complaining about overuse of surveys. I keep a close watch on forums and some official/unofficial public ou discords, I didn't hear of any survey overuse complaints after the Jan 1 survey or even the Jan 22 survey. Not every survey leads to some kneejerk suspect. It's great to check in with the community periodically and see what they think about certain threats: if nothing scores too high then let it settle, and if something does score high then we can suspect. And even if we do suspect, there's more time for the meta to develop, and a ban is not a sure thing.

So yeah, I really can't see where you're coming from with survey overuse or ban happy regimes. Complaining about how easy reqs are when you happen to have the majority disagreeing with you just gives off major sore loser vibes man. Trust me, I've been there, tera ban coper #1 here, but reqs and qualified responders are who they are.

As i said in a previous post, gouging usage and winrate decreases as elo increases, which means I know this is a mon that plagues the lower elo crowd and feels cheap and oppressive. However, the macro picture fails to show its true overwhelming presence in the meta because it simply does not win that much. Sure, the games where you lose vs it feels like there was nothing you can do, but there are games where the wrong set feels utterly useless, and moreso if you would let the people explore new counters to it such as rain and a resurgence of toxapex, for example, which shuts down every single set.

Well it's a good thing the lower elo crowd aint voting...cuz ya know, that's what reqs are for.
Btw when you say "the games where you lose vs it feels like there was nothing you can do, but there are games where the wrong set feels utterly useless," you are describing an unhealthy and banworthy pokemon to me. Pokemon don't have to be killing 2-3 mons every game to be banned, being an extreme MU fish is bad enough. Sometimes a tera dark sneasler smashes your ghold and you felt like there was nothing you could've done, othertimes you brought dondozo and the opposing sneasler did nothing. I'm not making a direct comparison between GF and sneasler here, but your description of GF also fit sneasler there.

This brings me to the point of the sleep ban. Spore ban made amoong useless, making glim and gking the only poison types viable in the tier. Since amoong was the only non muk poison that could stand up to gking, pex became an unintended victim since it is bad vs both of those poisons. This is what i'm talking about when i say ramifications of one ban can ripple into the meta, affecting multiple future decisions. If pex was not at such all time atrocious usage, or if there can possibly be anything in the tier to deter gking being spammed with no remorse, then surely gouging would not have become this big of an issue. We are unnecessarily changing the meta in ways that we cant predict the ramifications, who would have thought the sleep ban would make gking the only usable poison in the entire meta and cause gouge to be broken? certainly not council! (i predicted this however)

We don't make tiering decisions based on shaky predictions or potential ramifications and ripple effects that may or may not happen in the future. We make tiering decisions based on what is happening in the present, and only the present. Preserving sleep to preserve pex to balance GF would never be solid reasoning to base your decision off of. We handle problems now, and if doing so causes problems later, we handle those problems later. Just like we're doing right now.

I digress, but back to ur so called QR's that voted: like i said, gouging is a bigger problem the lower elo you are. I am indeed in the minority because I am relatively knowledgable as a tour player/affiliate. However, this does not mean that I am wrong and you guys are right. You cannot make the argument that you guys are arguing for the right thing then end with 'well we are the majority and we voted this way anyway' and strongarm democracy. Sure, I am in the minority here, but I will take my stand and make my points heard no matter if theres 1 person on my side or a thousand.

QR's arent low elo though. You have to be top 150~ or so on ladder at the time of survey to qualify that way, or have been successful in tours, or have gotten reqs in the past. These are all fairly reliable noobfilters and to pretend that QRs are all idiots is nonsense.

The rest of this is cope man. Very relatable cope. I'm a relatively knowledgeable tour player too, and I'm in the minority about wanting tera banned. Nobody's given me an argument that's satisfied me on why we should keep it. People tell me all the time 'well we are the majority and we voted this way.' I'm in the minority, I take my stand and let my points be heard, no matter if there's 0 or a thousand people agreeing with me. And where has all this coping led me? Truly a pitiful place.

Finally:
'To finish up: we don't need to wait for statistical proof, we didn't wait for arch and that turned out fine.
Ultimately, it is the feelings of the voterbase and not hard facts that will decide how they vote. I can't really provide the facts you're looking for, and they wouldn't be of consequence if I could.
The QRs did not want the meta to settle, they are ban happy and that has to be respected. The numbers speak for themselves. GF does not need to be on the same level of broken as ursabm, sneas, or bax to be banned.
Cheers.'

you dont need to wait for statistical proof because it is not on your side. You cannot both try to play fair and also argue 'yea we have more people to vote on our side' and try to win this argument. ultimately, you may have a couple confounded voters who are confused and just as vulnerable as you in the face of gouging, panicking with no idea how to gameplan around it, but you still know that none of you can provide the DNB side with any coherent argument or statistical support showing that gouge is overly broken.

I've yet to be swayed by any so called statistical proof, assuming it held any weight. I just think it's very funny that you attempt to characterize ban voters as players who can't outplay the suspected mon. With no evidence btw. All just opinionated nonsense being slung across the aisle. The DNB side has been presented with plenty of coherent arguments; they're still coherent even if they don't change your mind.

Great attitude for debate here, 'i cant win the argument so imma just get me and mine to outnumber you'
truly typical of the American voter mentality
Cheers back to you for the effort

I said it earlier in the post, and in the face of this very relatable cope, I will say it again:
Sometimes, nobody on the other side can give you an argument that satisfies you. The voters just vote based on their own vibes and you can accept the result or quit.

No hard feelings, no disrespect, that's just how suspect tests go sometimes.

EDIT: @below here https://www.smogon.com/stats/2024-02/moveset/gen9ou-0.txt

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

The Checks & Counters section to GF from the overall usage statistics last month is as follows:
View attachment 612356

just curious, where are you seeing this? looking at the "checks and counters" section in the 1695 stats only gives wake and zama as checks and nothing else. are we looking at two different set of stats or am i just missing something?

 

[Heatranator]

just curious, where are you seeing this? looking at the "checks and counters" section in the 1695 stats only gives wake and zama as checks and nothing else. are we looking at two different set of stats or am i just missing something?

It's in the 0 stats.
https://www.smogon.com/stats/2024-02/moveset/gen9ou-0.txt
The 1500 stats are even wilder.

Like who tf is using polteageist to counter gouging???
I really want to look through these statistics some day, really interesting shit.

 

[Dece1t]

I think GF should not be banned because I said so.

….

All seriousness, I feel as though GF is the boogie man in what’s an otherwise congested meta. While I think it’s very good, it’s not the prime suspect candidate imo, especially given its reliance on inconsistent sun to be borderline broken. I think there are better fish in the cesspool Mets to target right now. Gouging Fire is awesome similar in vein to how Walking awake was, and that ban imo was a big overreaction. I wouldn’t be rash on this one and I wouldn’t over think it. DNB is the way to go.

 

[Finchinator]

I think GF should not be banned because I said so.

….

All seriousness, I feel as though GF is the boogie man in what’s an otherwise congested meta. While I think it’s very good, it’s not the prime suspect candidate imo, especially given its reliance on inconsistent sun to be borderline broken. I think there are better fish in the cesspool Mets to target right now. Gouging Fire is awesome similar in vein to how Walking awake was, and that ban imo was a big overreaction. I wouldn’t be rash on this one and I wouldn’t over think it. DNB is the way to go.

People are far more focused on the DD variants than any Sun sets.

Walking Wake was never banned.

 

[FFK]

I think GF should not be banned because I said so.

….

All seriousness, I feel as though GF is the boogie man in what’s an otherwise congested meta. While I think it’s very good, it’s not the prime suspect candidate imo, especially given its reliance on inconsistent sun to be borderline broken. I think there are better fish in the cesspool Mets to target right now. Gouging Fire is awesome similar in vein to how Walking awake was, and that ban imo was a big overreaction. I wouldn’t be rash on this one and I wouldn’t over think it. DNB is the way to go.

The argument of 'Don’t ban it, there are way more other threats more broken than him!!' just seems a bit misguided to me. It's like saying we shouldn't address a problem just because there are bigger problems out there. But if something is arguably broken or causing imbalance in the tier, shouldn't we prioritize addressing it regardless of whether it's the top priority? I mean, maintaining balance and fairness should always be a priority, right? So, dismissing a potential ban just because there are other issues might not be the best approach, especially if the thing in question is actually causing significant issues in the tier. It's definitely something to think about, lol.

 

[Ryomathekillers]

Gouging Fire clearly is not overwhelmingly broken and op to the point where it is breaking the tier apart with insane unstoppable force.

Meta has barely progressed since dlc2 and arch ban, It is much more difficult to unban a mon than to ban it, so why vote ban now when it can be properly observed in a few months and re-suspected if it proves to be broken.

Arguments regarding the power of gouging fire and its "health" on the meta are very subjective and there will never be any definitive conclusions. I'd much rather have a Kyurem or Kingambit situation where the mon has time and can be resuspected if it needs it, than a volc situation where it is banned prematurely and the meta is altered in a negative way. I won't be attempting Reqs because of University, but I'd suggest people DNB and have more patience

 

[Finchinator]

Meta has barely progressed since dlc2 and arch ban

This metagame has shifted frequently, especially since the release of DLC2 and throughout January/February. It is very clearly not the same metagame as when DLC2 was released or when Arch was banned. There has been a substantial shift in both council opinion and (qualified) community sentiment, which is not just some rogue coincidence in a flatlined metagame.

Arguments regarding the power of gouging fire and its "health" on the meta are very subjective and there will never be any definitive conclusions. I'd much rather have a Kyurem or Kingambit situation where the mon has time and can be resuspected if it needs it, than a volc situation where it is banned prematurely and the meta is altered in a negative way

This comparison is also misleading (and part of it is outright incomparable). The Volc situation was due to a quickban without sufficient community insight; this is a suspect that happened after an outcry from the community. I think comparing the two is disingenuous at best and bad faith at worst. Assuming you’re in the former camp, I implore you to read discourse then as opposed to now: it would be tone deaf to liken the two situations.

 

[SittinGamer]

I don't think I'll be trying to grind unless something epic happens, but I'd vote ban if I could. If I recall, the qualified vote was a 4.1 average, which would usually be in line with a quickban. I don't see how it can be argued that this is a forced ban happy suspect when a suspect is about the most restrained action that could have been taken given the scores.

Tera Grass Flash Fire Heatran has been incredibly helpful since the GF uptick, and it doesn't hurt to do reasonably well into Raging Bolt as well. Just figured I'd share my best answer to the mon while it's relevant.

 

[pika pal]

Gouging Fire clearly is not overwhelmingly broken and op to the point where it is breaking the tier apart with insane unstoppable force.

Meta has barely progressed since dlc2 and arch ban, It is much more difficult to unban a mon than to ban it, so why vote ban now when it can be properly observed in a few months and re-suspected if it proves to be broken.

Arguments regarding the power of gouging fire and its "health" on the meta are very subjective and there will never be any definitive conclusions. I'd much rather have a Kyurem or Kingambit situation where the mon has time and can be resuspected if it needs it, than a volc situation where it is banned prematurely and the meta is altered in a negative way. I won't be attempting Reqs because of University, but I'd suggest people DNB and have more patience

Voting DNB on the premise that a Suspect could happen later if it's still broken doesn't address the point of whether or not it's problematic now in the case of hypothetical voters who would go from Ban -> DNB for such a reason. If GF is creating an undesireable Meta, the promise that it MIGHT get better could just as easily be argued that it WON'T improve and then we just dealt with an avoidable problem for longer than we should have.

In fact I don't think DNB votes for the sake of potential other tiering action fixing the tier is a popular sentiment among OU: Kingambit fell short of a ban with several DNB voters expressing they would have voted ban but thought Tera was the issue more than the mon, resulting in a mon everyone still wants attention on but is a lot harder to sell a suspect for since it was voted to stay once compared to other Subjects who haven't had a test since ending up on the Radar.

The incompatible comparison with the Volcarona QB was already brought up with regards to the issue of process (Volc was banned without significant Community Support at the time it happened while GF broke what was the QB threshold in prior stages of the Gen 9 Surveys), but I also should mention that it wasn't a unanimous sentiment that the effect of Volcarona's removal was a strict negative. The mon did have some positive contributions to the pre-ban Meta, hence why it wasn't getting support that kept it on Surveys consistently (the QB was after several write-ins), but was also viewed as being very match-up fishy as has often been the case for it as a controversial Mon in previous OUs. A large number of users at the time objected to the Volcarona process moreso than the result, whereas with Gouging Fire, Ban or DNB, there's no arguing that action and scrutiny on it is the popular sentiment for OU right now.

 

[nameless90]

I can’t vote, but I’d still support to BAN Gouging Fire.

I want to talk about new traits that I think nobody has brought up in order to support this point of view about this suspect process.

• What I really want to underline is that base 91 Spe stat, which nobody hasn't been pointed out, but I think that is part of the reason that makes Gouging Fire a little too much to be handled in OU.

252+ Spe EVs allow Gouging Fire to reach 309 Spe points, exactly on par with Landorus-T (a check but without reliable recovery) and with 252 Spe Evs (with a neutral nature on Spe). It is banal, but this way you outspeed surgically all the base-90 Spe and below, mainly defensive and bulky pokemons but even Swift Swimmer/Chlorophyll users outside their weather.
Many of these pokemons doesn't have reliably recovery and in this generation the PP of many healing moves have been reduced, thus making them easy to PP stall, thus leaving them more prone to be pressured by a wallbreaker.

This means that 91 Spe, while not stellar, is just enough to work with especially when paired with Dragon Dance and a good base stat, and with strong attacking moves.

252 Spe EVs with a neutral nature on Spe allows Gouging Fire to hit 281 Spe points (as well as Landorus-T), which is still a good chunch of pokemons.

• Protosynthesis is just the icing on the cake because it potentially allows you to run a defensive/supporting item (such as HDBoots) or an offensive item (such as the Booster Energy). Normally, when customizing a Pokemon you have to choose between a defensive, supportive approach or an offensive item...but Protosynthesis simply allows you to run even both of them or reinforce the same aspect twice. The addition of the EVs allows you to choose what stat (between Atk, Spe of even Def) is boosted, thus adding another level of unpredictability for the opponent...in my opinion too much to be kept in check reliably. Also, there is always the possibility to use the Tera on this pokemon, and this is another layer of unpredictability.

These features require to use the Sun but I don't see it as a detrimental/restricting aspect considering that Sun itself (such as Rain) is something that is good and is something your opponent has to deal with. Also, keep in mind that you can make good use even of the opposing Sun when we are talking about Protosynthesis users.
In other words, the opponent may find himself in a situation where he had to deal (even his own) weather + an opposing Gouging Fire boosted until the Sun is up. Also, Sun makes Morning Sun a lot appealing (with 2/3 hp recovery) despite the low PP, since base hp is good and defenses + resistances are great to work with.

====> I think that Gouging Fire, while not blatantly broken, is a little too much when talking about OU environment due to a mixture of positive traits, so BAN it.
The problem is that this pokemon comes in a generation that adds the Tera mechanic as another layer of unpredictability (when we are talking about possible counterplay) and with application both offensively and defensively.

 

[Sylveon used calm mind]

ok I don't really see why you would ban gouging fire
As I understood it, the most problematic set people think gouging fire has is the dd, morning sun, breaking swipe, flare blitz set

I don't even think that set is good tbh, it loses to roar zamazenta, which is actually common now (at least in spl), bulk up lefties tusk, basically any other bulk up mon with lefties, and you gotta rely on tera in so many matchups, if ur tera poison to avoid getting toxic by gliscor, suddenly ur getting burned or iron pressed by zama (+6 body press on tera poison does out damage the morning sun heals, ~34% per hit, u got 16PP of body press, can defense drop with crunches first if u want to to do more damage)
So even if ur not facing roar zamazenta u can't 1v1 it anyways, unless u crit a flare blitz or 2 breaking swipes before ur morning suns run out and opponent cant get a defense drop with crunch cause then +6 body press does over 50%on ur tera poison gouging

If ur tera ghost u simply lose to gliscor and any other pokemon that toxic's u

I think the choice band, speed/attack booster in sun is way more viable than that breaking swipe cheese. But even that choice band in sun set is manageable.

This mon is mid at best, not even top tier in OU imo and definitely not a candidate for a suspect test.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

how did this thing get a 4.1 on a survey last week and suddenly a bunch of people are crawling out of the woodwork to say "don't banned gouging"? something's not adding up here

 

[peepeepoopoo722]

how did this thing get a 4.1 on a survey last week and suddenly a bunch of people are crawling out of the woodwork to say "don't banned gouging"? something's not adding up here

Just needed some time to adapt lol..... ;)

I'm working on getting reqs just need 7 more games without losing 2 more times :| Which brings a question......... There is ladder decay right? So what is stopping me from taking a break for a few days to get my ELO bumped down for EZ games the last few?


I 100% play better with balance. Unaware Max SpDef Clef and Max Defense Dozo together take so much of the metagame.. I just play with the other 4 back and forth.. Ground types and dragons always.. And with such overpowered threat saturation I shouldn't be winning as much as I do!? I lost 1 game to Gouging on this req attempt and I blame myself for not scouting the set before I committed tera steel on clef...

I think the games going to get really boring if we ban 5-7 pokemon because you're going to have a very difficult time breaking thiccc team structures.

 

[Avira]

how did this thing get a 4.1 on a survey last week and suddenly a bunch of people are crawling out of the woodwork to say "don't banned gouging"? something's not adding up here

Chill, man. The OU playerbase is not a monolith. Just as there are people who gave Gouging Fire 4 or 5 on the survey, there were also people who gave it a 1 or 2. There were very clearly a fair number of people who wanted it to stay or else Gouging Fire would have gotten comparable numbers to Baxcalibur on the survey when it was close to unanimous that Bax was broken. There is no need to be flippant or paranoid.

 

[Alternator]

how did this thing get a 4.1 on a survey last week and suddenly a bunch of people are crawling out of the woodwork to say "don't banned gouging"? something's not adding up here

People who are content with the status quo don't tend to post as much, while people who want to see change will be very prominent and noisy.

This is Nixon's "silent majority" - that you only hear from people who want to shake things up.

Now that the status quo is (seemingly) "ban Gouging Fire," the people who were formerly OK with the tier as it is are coming out and expressing their opinions.