People are underselling just how good it is for Darkrai to put something to sleep is. Bad Dreams is a good ability, and can make up for it's lack of power by whittling down an opponents HP. Debilitating would be checks/counters with a combination of sleep and poison, or just out right killing them. Hot take, but Nasty Plot is ass on Darkrai. You're way better off running Hypnosis 3 attacks, or Hypnosis Taunt, Sub Hypnosis, Choice Scarf with Trick, Will-o Utility, or even just 4 attack LO. People are right in that there are too many Booster Mons and Unaware mons running around for NP to work. Just out right attacking, or spreading status is the way to go. Darkrai is strong guys. Banworthy? We'll see as the metagame develops and people explore past NP Darkrai.
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [Volcarona Banned]
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
The big difference between Darkrai and Gengar is the ability. Darkrai gets valuable chip against sleeping mons (or, in the case of Clefable, tells you whether it's running Unaware or Magic Guard).idk why people are clowning you here
sub-CM darkrai with hypnosis is another set that can 6-0 on lead
that said, I don't think the fact that darkrai can 6-0 fat teams from turn 1 is a bad thing, nor do I think it's "broken". NP Hypnosis Gengar has been able to do this since gen-whatever. Hypnosis valiant is more OU-viable cheese. If anything, it's all the more reason to bring backand
. The ladder is offense-oriented and very antagonistic to pokemon like this, so to say they should be banned b/c they're restrictive to stall or whatever seems pretty stupid to me when stuff like Tera Dondozo invalidates 90% of physical attackers by existing.
Sleep is stupid, yeah, but so is paralysis and anything with less than like 80% accuracy. The game is just not very competitive at its core...
Ban Tera
Darkrai's resisting Sucker Punch is also more useful than Gengar's being immune to Seismic Toss.
Also, Darkrai is infinitely more useful than Gengar against offensive teams.
See V
Also people aren’t going to take your stance seriously if all you do is post disingenuously and crappy replays.
Are they really crappy replays when I've shared 5 replays of Darkrai doing the exact same thing, against the same exact type of team, all against players within the top 100 on the OU ladder? Seems like a trend at that point.
to me it looks like hypnosis darkrai just happens to be a top-tier stallbreaking set, which is a huge own on people who said it was bad or a meme set but not the "behold, an uber" argument you think it is
Didn't you call me crazy for saying Annihilape should get a re-test?
You should be consistent in your opinions. Annihilape breaks stall, gets banned. Darkrai does it (while being way better against offense), gets called "midrai"
See my above reply, when you're misleading people with false descriptors about your replays, then it is crappy. That's lying dude, it's not cool. You're deliberately omitting information.
This sums up my thoughts perfectly - it's a good variant for stallbreaking, not Uber material by any means.
What's up everybody? We're all getting bored of this Darkrai back and forth, right? I think I saw somebody mention Slither Wing a few times in the last couple pages. Slither Wing has First Impression! It's a pretty cool move into an offensive meta. You know who else has First Impression? Lokix? Uh, yeah, sure, but I was thinking more like...Flygon?
...I'm gonna take a minute to bug y'all about Flygon.
Morkal already cooked up a Flygon set early on in the meta, but I've really been enjoying a more offensive take on basically the same set:
Ability: Levitate
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- First Impression
- Earthquake
- Dragon Claw
- U-turn
I'll cut to the chase: Flygon's super power in this meta is that it gives practically zero effs about hazards, which gives it the freedom to run LO to patch up its mediocre attack stat (LO Flygon's EQ hits about 15% harder than Garchomp's and, through the magic of STAB, harder than Band Dragonite's) without completely obliterating its longevity. In a game state with rocks and one layer of spikes up, Flygon can come in and fire off two attacks and take about as much in passive damage as most non-boots 'mons take just by entering the field.
Couple that lack of concern for hazards with powerful priority, a great STAB combo, and a speed tier that's just good enough for threatening/pivoting on 'mons like Dhengo, Great Tusk, Kyurem, Gouging Fire, and more, and you have something that can put in a surprising amount of work on a dedicated VoltTurn team. Tera Steel completely flips all of Flygon's weaknesses into resistances while retaining a rocks resistance and adding toxic immunity, letting you surprise KO things like the Latii when they think they can threaten you out after you've revenged something with First Impression.
Now, this isn't, like, a good 'mon. We're probably talking D rank viability here in the "well, technically it has a niche" sense. Maybe C rank. But I think that OU, in all of its hazard-infested glory, is arguably the place where LO 4 Attacks Flygon shines the most (DD and Scarf will probably continue to rule RU/NU). I've built a couple of half-assed teams around a core of
-
-
that have peaked around 1700 despite being terrible into Rain and bulky flyers but, most importantly, have been a lot of fun. Because Flygon.
A few of my favorite replays, though nothing high ladder
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2025517458?p2 (A lot of VoltTurn positioning work here because my smart self made a team that's terrible into Gliscor; Flygon takes out Roaring Moon from 90%)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2025557869 (Flygon leaves its heart on the field, claiming 4 KOs in an absolutely clutch display)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2025474833 (reminder: most lead Meows are running Boots these days)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2025404443 (Flygon naturally keeps Raging Bolt in check and provides some notable breaking into Sun)
Flygon
...I'm gonna take a minute to bug y'all about Flygon.
Morkal already cooked up a Flygon set early on in the meta, but I've really been enjoying a more offensive take on basically the same set:
Ability: Levitate
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- First Impression
- Earthquake
- Dragon Claw
- U-turn
I'll cut to the chase: Flygon's super power in this meta is that it gives practically zero effs about hazards, which gives it the freedom to run LO to patch up its mediocre attack stat (LO Flygon's EQ hits about 15% harder than Garchomp's and, through the magic of STAB, harder than Band Dragonite's) without completely obliterating its longevity. In a game state with rocks and one layer of spikes up, Flygon can come in and fire off two attacks and take about as much in passive damage as most non-boots 'mons take just by entering the field.
Couple that lack of concern for hazards with powerful priority, a great STAB combo, and a speed tier that's just good enough for threatening/pivoting on 'mons like Dhengo, Great Tusk, Kyurem, Gouging Fire, and more, and you have something that can put in a surprising amount of work on a dedicated VoltTurn team. Tera Steel completely flips all of Flygon's weaknesses into resistances while retaining a rocks resistance and adding toxic immunity, letting you surprise KO things like the Latii when they think they can threaten you out after you've revenged something with First Impression.
Now, this isn't, like, a good 'mon. We're probably talking D rank viability here in the "well, technically it has a niche" sense. Maybe C rank. But I think that OU, in all of its hazard-infested glory, is arguably the place where LO 4 Attacks Flygon shines the most (DD and Scarf will probably continue to rule RU/NU). I've built a couple of half-assed teams around a core of
-- that have peaked around 1700 despite being terrible into Rain and bulky flyers but, most importantly, have been a lot of fun. Because Flygon.A few of my favorite replays, though nothing high ladder
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2025517458?p2 (A lot of VoltTurn positioning work here because my smart self made a team that's terrible into Gliscor; Flygon takes out Roaring Moon from 90%)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2025557869 (Flygon leaves its heart on the field, claiming 4 KOs in an absolutely clutch display)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2025474833 (reminder: most lead Meows are running Boots these days)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2025404443 (Flygon naturally keeps Raging Bolt in check and provides some notable breaking into Sun)
Flygon
I'm also going to note in the Darkrai match, if that Blissey had Thunder Wave or Calm Mind to go for on the turns it didn't get Flinched, Darkrai's either now just as dependent on getting a Flinch as the equally-likely chance of not being full-para'd, or in a Boosting war where it becomes much more Flinch dependent to break through Blissey while it can chip him with Seismic Toss. Slowking-Galar can also Tera into Neutral and Paralyze it as well or near KO with Sludge Bomb from the AV set given you immediately burned Tera into a type weak to that (and just used it early in general). He gave up after going to Clefable on the Hypnosis turn post-Boost, despite the above mentioned Slowking-G being a valid response if he was going to sac something anyway as seemed to be the intent bringing Clefable back in.
Darkrai's lack of coverage on the Hypnosis sets means it's going to run into problems with coverage against balance or Bulky Offense teams that don't need to stomach repeated hits, just one or two and then punch it in the face. It's the inverse scenario to Scarf butting its head against the Stall teams you're posting to own in these Replays. I'm still not seeing anything OU hasn't already deemed acceptable from the likes of Iron Valiant or Gholdengo, who basically does this to most of the teams you fought by existing, nevermind running a 60% Status move.
Darkrai's sets into the "wrong" team are borderline useless, vs Annihilape's sets going from "6-0 the opponent" to "smart 1-2 trade potential" against them. Darkrai is not simultaneously "way better against offense" than Annihilape with the same set you're trying to compare to the Stall Eating potential.
Darkrai's lack of coverage on the Hypnosis sets means it's going to run into problems with coverage against balance or Bulky Offense teams that don't need to stomach repeated hits, just one or two and then punch it in the face. It's the inverse scenario to Scarf butting its head against the Stall teams you're posting to own in these Replays. I'm still not seeing anything OU hasn't already deemed acceptable from the likes of Iron Valiant or Gholdengo, who basically does this to most of the teams you fought by existing, nevermind running a 60% Status move.
Yes because one replay quit after 10 turns despite not having exhausted their options and as has been broken down, the others included several sub-optimal plays when one of the hallmarks of a busted/unhealthy Pokemon is the best moves still not giving you a chance to win and taking skill out of the equation, neither of which is demonstrated by the ones you shared. High Ladder can have players make bad/wrong calls, it doesn't immediately make the match representative of the thousands of ladder matches that occur in the time it takes me to type this response.
Not the guy you're replying to but here's one significant difference: Annihilape punishes Stall by existing since hits that don't KO are progress for him as much as the opponent, not to mention the STAB coverage he gets in 2 moves is not remotely comparable to what Darkrai can do in 2 (or heck even in 3) himself, leaving Annihilape easy room to play with 2 instead of 1 non-attack slots. Darkrai in these replays needs to land Hypnosis at multiple crucial intervals alongside other significant lucky points like Flinch fishing or some important Crits that were pointed out in order for the set people are calling a Stallbreaker to work the way you're showing. Annihilape breaks Stall teams with a set that already gives it a pretty good way to punch offense in the face thanks to his bulk and Signature move.
Darkrai's sets into the "wrong" team are borderline useless, vs Annihilape's sets going from "6-0 the opponent" to "smart 1-2 trade potential" against them. Darkrai is not simultaneously "way better against offense" than Annihilape with the same set you're trying to compare to the Stall Eating potential.
turd2 you clairly expressed your opinion that darkrai is busted and should be banned,
Many others have answered that they don't think it is the case.
Neither you nor the other seems convinced by the other parties argument (thought I do think some arguments are overly biased)
As you're not the community you can't decide the future of darkrai or anihilape. So could you please stop arguing more without making some large scale thorough analysis ?
It looks like to me you like conflict or want absolutely to have the last word which I found
quite annoying...
Many others have answered that they don't think it is the case.
Neither you nor the other seems convinced by the other parties argument (thought I do think some arguments are overly biased)
As you're not the community you can't decide the future of darkrai or anihilape. So could you please stop arguing more without making some large scale thorough analysis ?
It looks like to me you like conflict or want absolutely to have the last word which I found
quite annoying...
Yes.
Please stop being a shit-stirrer intent on combatting the entire board. Show some large-scale analysis that proves Darkrai is busted. Show us how it beats most team styles, has no or limited counterplay, dilates the metagame around using or beating it, removes skill from the game by being so brainlessly good... Something. 4-5 replays, even if they're high ladder, especially if they rely on landing a 60% accurate move and you yourself admitted Darkrai is dead weight if it doesn't, are not an argument. They are, at most, an oddity. Every Pokemon is subject to RNG swings, but the truly broken stuff doesn't need RNG swings to break the game. Show us this mythical Darkrai set that beats all its answers consistently (emphasized so you don't bring up Hypnosis) and is demonstrably too strong for OU.
Yes 100% they are.
Pretty much all the replays had extremely favorable odds for Darkrai user, the opponent made misplays or quit too early, were with bad match-ups, or some combination of the 3.
Like of course a Pokemon is going to look OP when everything is going its way.
If you want to convince people Darkrai is actually ban worthy, I’d recommend you post replays against more than 1 playstyle and for sure replays that don’t have you getting lucky with RNG and your opponent making bad plays.
Also maybe describe why Darkrai would be ban worthy when Iron Valiant and Iron Boulder exist, both of which are common, threaten Darkrai, and are stiff competition with it.
I don't doubt Darkrai might be broken, but I feel it's more likely to be OP due to its high set variety and coverage. There are a lot of other options it can run like Psyshock and Tera Fighting Focus Blast to flip counterplay like blissey and clod on their heads, as well as other options like Wisp, Knock off, and T Wave for utility. Probably not my place to say this since I suck at this game currently, but I think Darkrai will become more potent when players mix in these options alongside the Hypnosis set.
This is a mon that's similar to Blaziken, where the potential to be OP is there, but more options need to be explored beyond the standard.
This is a mon that's similar to Blaziken, where the potential to be OP is there, but more options need to be explored beyond the standard.
no, i called you crazy for remembering things that didn't happen, like me calling you crazy
the difference is that annihilape is broken and darkrai isn't. does darkrai have the least 4mss out of any existing mon because it gets perfect neutral coverage on its stabs except for a single mon that i'd be extremely generous to call mid, without even needing to tera? does darkrai have 110/80/90 bulk and drain punch to ensure its broken-ass signature move can routinely reach 150 base power or more? does darkrai have an ability that makes setup control virtually impossible against it? is darkrai's main form of counterplay "don't attack it at all unless you can ohko it"? i'll go ahead and give you the answers to those questions for free since i'm feeling nice today: no, no, no, and absolutely hell to the fuck no. the two mons are not even comparable. it's not even comparing apples to oranges anymore, it's comparing neckties to cash registers
That team has very little in terms of a defensive answer to
, as in no 
or other special wall, such as 
. They had a bad matchup vs .Also, they forfieted.
I had a whole post thought up about how great Tera Blast Ghost Excadrill is at breaking common balance/stall structures and as a spinner in general and how it just sucks that it’s really tera-reliant, then I realized that Excadrill learns Shadow Claw.
Excadrill @ Air Balloon
Ability: Mold Breaker
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Shadow Claw
- Swords Dance
- Rapid Spin
Please do not run Tera Blast Ghost Excadrill.
Excadrill @ Air Balloon
Ability: Mold Breaker
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Shadow Claw
- Swords Dance
- Rapid Spin
Please do not run Tera Blast Ghost Excadrill.
Defensive teams have no answer for this, take these replays with no Blissey and no Clodsire as evidence. The other replay you shared the guy could have got out of it if Blissey had (or maybe it did and just didn't use it for some reason) calm mind, or if he did not sack his Clefable for no reason, or if flinch didn't proc when it did. Yes the thing with stall is that hax is less of a factor because there are more turns but still that outcome happened because of 1) poor gameplay 2) shit team and 3) a 20% effect happening at a certain time
Annihilape does not deserve a retest.
Why is one obligated to be consistent in their opinions when opinions change all the time, typically when new information is absorbed? I strongly advocated for a Gliscor ban during the suspect, the tier was worse without him, I was wrong and my mind changed. This is part of the human experience
on Annihilape again, "banned for breaking stall" is like 1 percent of the issue. Taking an absurd amount of agency away from the opponent and destroying all team styles bar hyper offense with a godly defensive and offensive presence was. Let's take your logic to its logical conclusion, that Pokémon should be banned for breaking stall. We should ban Tera because most offensive Pokémon are able to do this with STAB or favorable Tera. Next let's ban Hoopa Unbound first and foremost, followed by Heatran, Glowking, Hatterene, Wellspring, Ursaluna. And of course Rillaboom and Gholdengo. And ban the move Psyshock. Wait a second, maybe I'm cooking...
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I agree Darkrai has a lot of potential that's gone underexplored. The main issue right now is that Deo-S has kinda stolen its thunder and people really aren't playing around with it. Choice Scarf and NP plus three attacks are kinda all I've seen so far. Once people start playing around stuff like Will-o-Wisp, Thunder Wave, Knock Off, Hex, Taunt, Trick, then it might get wilder.
I dont think is banworthy but it is extremely viable. Dark type pokemon are a premium in today’s metagame. I’d say its at least an A/A- tier pokemon in OU
People calling it Midrai just aren’t good at using it. Not to mention we haven’t even explored all the different sets to see which is the most viable. Its tool kit is great
is banworthy but it is extremely viable. Dark type pokemon are a premium in today’s metagame. I’d say its at least an A/A- tier pokemon in OUPeople calling it Midrai just aren’t good at using it. Not to mention we haven’t even explored all the different sets to see which is the most viable. Its tool kit is great
Let me just say, Midrai is not banworthy at the moment. It's a great mon, that even has unexplored potential. To the person trying to make the forum a shithole of arguements, you know who you are, stop. It's not going anywhere and you have taken at least 3 pages of discussions that have gone nowhere.
I think an arguement that is contreversial should have at least three points to it that can back each other up. Here are four examples of them.
1. Replays
2. Calcs
3. Long length discussion
4. Comparison to other mons
You sir, have done at most, 2 of these, but not even really in depth. You have provided 5 shitty replays, and a one-liner about shaymin-sky every 10 posts you make. You mocked people for saying that you don't need a phd to discuss things, but you do. You are in the minority, show us your arguements in a concise matter. If you want me to, I can make a post about a mon that is shit that follows the formula I did, like emboar, registeel or some shit.
Edit: That's the difference between you and morkoal, they are nice to others and write essays on something like morpeko, and while I don't think it's good in OU, they show their reasoning and make me think, "huh, they might be on to something."
I think an arguement that is contreversial should have at least three points to it that can back each other up. Here are four examples of them.
1. Replays
2. Calcs
3. Long length discussion
4. Comparison to other mons
You sir, have done at most, 2 of these, but not even really in depth. You have provided 5 shitty replays, and a one-liner about shaymin-sky every 10 posts you make. You mocked people for saying that you don't need a phd to discuss things, but you do. You are in the minority, show us your arguements in a concise matter. If you want me to, I can make a post about a mon that is shit that follows the formula I did, like emboar, registeel or some shit.
Edit: That's the difference between you and morkoal, they are nice to others and write essays on something like morpeko, and while I don't think it's good in OU, they show their reasoning and make me think, "huh, they might be on to something."
1. Good players can make bad teams/strategies work, how else (tangent alert) do you think wolfey manages to get the worst pokemon imaginable to number 1 on the doubles ladder on cart
1 and 1 half. That team also had answers to darkrai they just expect people to be normal and run good sets that aren't high-roll to shit. In a battle against a normal darkrai, it wouldn't have done nearly as much work. CM Blissey alone invalidates non-choiced darkrai without crits (choiced variants just trick their choice item onto whatever comes in to wall and it'll probably be beneficial for them lmao). That clefable would force tera poison and even the dondozo would only be taking +0 damage and can hit back quite hard. Moongus can take one boosted hit, spore, and then pivot for free. This player had answers for darkrai sets that normal people run because they are good. Obviously they weren't expecting someone at that level to run a high-roll hypnosis set because why would they? Consistency is key at that level of play.
2. I don't think a pokemon has ever been banned for just beating stall. If a pokemon only beats stall that's like a tournament tech not a consistent staple (in most metagames).
I took a nap so this is 4 hours late and I see your argument hasn't changed at all
imo is a strong Pokemon and I’d say a sidegrade to 
. It has its own strengths over IV, but also IV has plenty of its own strengths and overall is arguably better. Darkrai is more threatening to defensive teams and isn’t screwed over as much by Sticky Webs, while Iron Valiant is more threatening to more offensive teams, which imo is more important for 1 slot on your team to do. Plus it’s not like either is strictly bad against defensive/offensive teams respectfully. Darkrai is plenty fast especially with Scarf to threaten offensive teams, while Iron Valiant can threaten both physically and specially and also has many anti-stall tools Darkrai has (another reason why I say it’s overall better).There probably has at some point but it's more if they invalidate the style completely while not being horrible against other playstyles. Something like hoopa-unbound is amazing as a wallbreaker, but struggles against any other playstyle.
I think that's the big difference between midrai and annihilape. Darkrai can do amazingly against stall and alright against other playstyles, while annihilape invalidates stall while being great against other playstyles. Extremeties are a lot, darkrai itself does not invalidate stall.
Hoopa-U was also very effective against balance teams too, which were more common back in Gen 6. It still is arguably the top Stall and Balance destroyer, but it fell off as more offensive teams became popular and while it's a 10 at destroying slower playstyles it's a 4 against faster playstyles and other Pokemon introduced were 9.8/7 or 8/9.5 against slow/fast playstyles.
I love using
in todays metagame. You just have to pair it with Mons that can tank U-Turn’s and other Physical attacks. It destroys fat teams but you need the right mons to support it.Here’s a set I been using.
Hoopa-Unbound @ Assault Vest
Ability: Magician
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 16 HP / 60 Atk / 252 Def / 180 Spe
Lax Nature
- Psychic
- Hyperspace Fury
- Knock Off/Dark Pulse
- Drain Punch
With a Lax Nature it can take physical hits better and the Assualt Vest makes up for the -SpDef nature. I like catching Great Tusk and Kingambit off guard who think they can kill/force it out, then proceed to kill them with Psychic/Drain Punch. I’m sure the ev’s can be optimized though.
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