Those were fixed a couple months ago in the string of changes
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Data State of the Game - January 2017
- Thread starter Its_A_Random
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Bandwagoning this. I think the first part is a fair assesment, as there is little incentive to devoting your item slot to what amounts to little more than a more immediately powerful yet less sustained Gem, and it would take a fair bit of deviation from ingame to make them worthwile on the level of sig items. The second bit, however, I think is a sensible proposal that might make sig crystals a viable niche option.
2) Should Salazzle have a Signature Item and why? If so, what attributes of Salazzle would you feel like would be good for a Signature Item for Salazzle and why?
A sig item for Salazzle has gotten enough support that it should get its own discussion thread soon, if it hasn't already (sorry, writing this in bits and pieces so this might have changed by the time I post) and I have nothing to add to the discussion. However, I will piggy-back off of this to say that Kerfluffle also evolves by an uncommon method (LU while knowing Play Rough, similarly to Ancient Crown and Dueling Gloves), so it should get its own sig item for consistency's sake. And while Kerf isn't released yet, it's close enough to completion over in CAP that I feel we should start working on that bit. Lord knows sig item discussion has never been a straightforward process here, so a head start should be welcome.
4) How should we handle the distribution of Ultra Beasts with regards to RP's in ASB and why?
I just wanna say that UBs are strong enough in general (for the most part at least) that I would advise against making them ASS rewards. ASS, at least in their current form, are significantly easier to prep for and to beat than TLRs, except for Legend Trainer. We'd have to make a sort of Legendary-difficulty ASS for the reward to match the effort imo.
That being said, UBs being accessible after Birkal's Island Challenge makes a bunch of sense on so many levels, so I'd push for that if it were up to me.
Just wanna reply to this to say that I had been planning some way to have some sort of catchability challenge with ASS, currently only on a conceptual level though. This is an excerpt from a PM I had sent to RP committee with what kind of thing I had in mind:
I'd probably be more inclined to test with some non-UB/Legend first before I bother though.
4) How should we handle the
distribution of Ultra Beasts with
regards to RP's in ASB and why?
I think this deserves a different RP but same concept to TLRs. Like, instead of a linear path like most TLRs, we can have the player journey to Ultra Space and in there, opens up possibilities where they could catch an Ultra Beast in its own territory. Or something like this:
Intro- Aether Labs (2 or more grunts)- Nebby(Ultra Wormhole)- Ultra Space Intro- Variable(The possible paths to UBs. Different path, different UB)- Lackeys- RPs- Guardians- Nest Battle(Type: Nulls make flavoring easy)- Guardians-UB
Although the only pokemon that makes sense to be in Ultra Space are the UBs themselves and Type:Nulls. We can also add Lusamine as the final Guardian.
distribution of Ultra Beasts with
regards to RP's in ASB and why?
I think this deserves a different RP but same concept to TLRs. Like, instead of a linear path like most TLRs, we can have the player journey to Ultra Space and in there, opens up possibilities where they could catch an Ultra Beast in its own territory. Or something like this:
Intro- Aether Labs (2 or more grunts)- Nebby(Ultra Wormhole)- Ultra Space Intro- Variable(The possible paths to UBs. Different path, different UB)- Lackeys- RPs- Guardians- Nest Battle(Type: Nulls make flavoring easy)- Guardians-UB
Although the only pokemon that makes sense to be in Ultra Space are the UBs themselves and Type:Nulls. We can also add Lusamine as the final Guardian.
1) How do you feel about the Z-Moves mechanic and why?
They're pretty underwhelming, yeah. ASB is so item dominated at this point that wasting your item slot to be able to use a really strong move once is just not at all worth it. I suppose we could buff Z-Crystals by making them 3 uses or something (see: what we do with Gems), but I'd also be fine waiting to see if anyone can figure out a good use for them in their current state.
3) What are your opinions on the abilities that were buffed or nerfed by the generational change and why?
Shit happens. Does the Gale Wings nerf suck and make Talonflame more or less unviable? Yeah, probably. Plenty of Pokemon are bad in ASB because they're bad ingame. Did we buff Beedrill to make it relevant? Nah. I don't see why this should be any different.
4) How should we handle the distribution of Ultra Beasts with regards to RP's in ASB and why?
I would love if we could distribute legends through other RP's in ASB. Island Challenge sounds like a great place to distribute Ultra Beasts, and I would totally endorse putting some of the weaker legends in ASS. More than anything, I want to see capture mechanics be used outside of TLRs; I think they're well balanced and fun and it's a shame that we only use them in one RP. Legends should be available as prizes for doing anything really really well in ASB in my opinion (besides raids). They should, of course, be very hard to obtain, and the vast majority should only be available through TLRs, but I think putting legends in other RPs would incentivize people to take them more seriously-right now most RPs are only seen as counter farming sources.
Some other stuff:
TLR Length:
Today (and really, for the last few months), TLR length has been a topic of discussion. It's no secret that TLRs are really damn hard, and that's as they should be-legends should not be given away (looking at you DNA and TPF). However, the main problem with TLRs from my point of view is how incredibly long they take. An average TLR run can take a solid six months of good execution, and that can all go to waste in one poor round (save points don't really help mitigate this tbh). TLRs shouldn't be easy, but their length creates annoying artificial difficulty that most users agree we could do without. The counterargument to this is that TLR length is an essential part of their difficulty, as it allows TLR refs to wear down challengers over the course of the TLR. This discussion has been had before, but I think with the amount of TLRs coming out now this problem is becoming even more apparent-catching a decent amount of legendaries will take years, even with absolutely perfect play. If we shortened TLRs I'd be all for making them even harder. I think it's fine to demand perfect planning and execution in TLRs...so long as one slip doesn't set you back three months.
Revamping/Updating OPs:
Right now, some information on the forum, particularly new user resources, is either conflicting, excessively spread out, or both. For example, the ASB Beginner's guide is pretty outdated, yet is where new users are pointed to when they join, and the How to Join ASB thread isn't a whole lot better. I like the suggestion of a 'Beginner's Corner' thread, where we would compile all necessary information for new users in one convenient location. I'd be willing to help with this with whoever else thinks it's a good idea (see Ooraloo ).
They're pretty underwhelming, yeah. ASB is so item dominated at this point that wasting your item slot to be able to use a really strong move once is just not at all worth it. I suppose we could buff Z-Crystals by making them 3 uses or something (see: what we do with Gems), but I'd also be fine waiting to see if anyone can figure out a good use for them in their current state.
3) What are your opinions on the abilities that were buffed or nerfed by the generational change and why?
Shit happens. Does the Gale Wings nerf suck and make Talonflame more or less unviable? Yeah, probably. Plenty of Pokemon are bad in ASB because they're bad ingame. Did we buff Beedrill to make it relevant? Nah. I don't see why this should be any different.
4) How should we handle the distribution of Ultra Beasts with regards to RP's in ASB and why?
I would love if we could distribute legends through other RP's in ASB. Island Challenge sounds like a great place to distribute Ultra Beasts, and I would totally endorse putting some of the weaker legends in ASS. More than anything, I want to see capture mechanics be used outside of TLRs; I think they're well balanced and fun and it's a shame that we only use them in one RP. Legends should be available as prizes for doing anything really really well in ASB in my opinion (besides raids). They should, of course, be very hard to obtain, and the vast majority should only be available through TLRs, but I think putting legends in other RPs would incentivize people to take them more seriously-right now most RPs are only seen as counter farming sources.
Some other stuff:
TLR Length:
Today (and really, for the last few months), TLR length has been a topic of discussion. It's no secret that TLRs are really damn hard, and that's as they should be-legends should not be given away (looking at you DNA and TPF). However, the main problem with TLRs from my point of view is how incredibly long they take. An average TLR run can take a solid six months of good execution, and that can all go to waste in one poor round (save points don't really help mitigate this tbh). TLRs shouldn't be easy, but their length creates annoying artificial difficulty that most users agree we could do without. The counterargument to this is that TLR length is an essential part of their difficulty, as it allows TLR refs to wear down challengers over the course of the TLR. This discussion has been had before, but I think with the amount of TLRs coming out now this problem is becoming even more apparent-catching a decent amount of legendaries will take years, even with absolutely perfect play. If we shortened TLRs I'd be all for making them even harder. I think it's fine to demand perfect planning and execution in TLRs...so long as one slip doesn't set you back three months.
Revamping/Updating OPs:
Right now, some information on the forum, particularly new user resources, is either conflicting, excessively spread out, or both. For example, the ASB Beginner's guide is pretty outdated, yet is where new users are pointed to when they join, and the How to Join ASB thread isn't a whole lot better. I like the suggestion of a 'Beginner's Corner' thread, where we would compile all necessary information for new users in one convenient location. I'd be willing to help with this with whoever else thinks it's a good idea (see Ooraloo ).
I want to note something about legendaries that not many have considered yet within this thread. First of all, I am fine with whatever we decide to do, but I think it should be consistent across the board. If you're going to ban certain legendaries, fine. But please, have some decorum about it, where we have at least a counselor or some sort of tiering committee where all legends get voted in or out. Mewtwo has been blocked for me (and Victini for Frosty) almost from the start due to one or two users with influence, but those same users turn around and utilize their own legendaries. And I would argue there is not a huge gap of difference between a Pokemon like Mewtwo and Deoxys, or Xerneas, or Darkrai. So if we're going to make a list, let's be thorough about it.
---
But in my opinion, legendaries should be allowed. I'm going to provide an anecdote about my experience with Mewtwo. I spent over a year of real life time fighting in a tournament for Mewtwo. If you count actual time it takes to order, let's use the base of 30 minutes per order in a tournament match. I think that's a real lowball number to use, for the record, because I have been known to pour hours into each set of orders. But with thirty minutes per order, in Best of Best Tournament alone, I spent 27 hours writing and posting orders (6 on Gerard, 6 on Deadfox, 7 on Engineer, 6 on Pwnemon).
So while I spend over a day of real time ordering to get Mewtwo, what does the normal user spend 27 hours of free time on in ASB? They are training. They are spending the time maxing their Sableyes and diversifying their teams and purchasing strong items. I didn't have those twenty seven hours; I invested them in a tournament. And when I got Mewtwo, it didn't magically come with all 136 moves -- I had to train to unlock them all! Using the metric that a flash takes 20 minutes, one could fight 81 battles, and gaining 5 MC from each (not even including UC), that's 405 MC, granting you over 200 moves. Again, this is all low estimates, in my opinion.
People with legendaries worked really hard to get them, and I think that should be recognized. It would be easy enough for me to spend 10 minutes maximum on tournament orders so I can flash even more, but that's not how I want to play the game. I can also guarantee that Mewtwo was the least amount of time I spent getting a legendary; Celebi's tournament had five matches, Thundurus has six, and Diancie and Keldeo were both TLRs which we all know takes way longer. I estimated that even getting Mega Mewtwonite X in DNA took me around 32 hours of play time. So when you're considering banning these legends, also consider the implications it has on the users who went out of their way to provide some quality battles to obtain them. It doesn't happen at the drop of a hat; users sacrifice a lot to win tournaments and legends around here. It would be nice for them to reap the rewards of their hard work, as opposed to it just being a trophy for them to display.
EDIT: In retrospect, this post sounds pretty self-absorbed. I want to emphasize that I am fine with whatever we do. I have had some success in tournaments, but it has nothing to do with "amazing skill" or anything. I have had my fair share of luck and setbacks due to a lack of skill. I just want this point to be considered when making banlists.
---
But in my opinion, legendaries should be allowed. I'm going to provide an anecdote about my experience with Mewtwo. I spent over a year of real life time fighting in a tournament for Mewtwo. If you count actual time it takes to order, let's use the base of 30 minutes per order in a tournament match. I think that's a real lowball number to use, for the record, because I have been known to pour hours into each set of orders. But with thirty minutes per order, in Best of Best Tournament alone, I spent 27 hours writing and posting orders (6 on Gerard, 6 on Deadfox, 7 on Engineer, 6 on Pwnemon).
So while I spend over a day of real time ordering to get Mewtwo, what does the normal user spend 27 hours of free time on in ASB? They are training. They are spending the time maxing their Sableyes and diversifying their teams and purchasing strong items. I didn't have those twenty seven hours; I invested them in a tournament. And when I got Mewtwo, it didn't magically come with all 136 moves -- I had to train to unlock them all! Using the metric that a flash takes 20 minutes, one could fight 81 battles, and gaining 5 MC from each (not even including UC), that's 405 MC, granting you over 200 moves. Again, this is all low estimates, in my opinion.
People with legendaries worked really hard to get them, and I think that should be recognized. It would be easy enough for me to spend 10 minutes maximum on tournament orders so I can flash even more, but that's not how I want to play the game. I can also guarantee that Mewtwo was the least amount of time I spent getting a legendary; Celebi's tournament had five matches, Thundurus has six, and Diancie and Keldeo were both TLRs which we all know takes way longer. I estimated that even getting Mega Mewtwonite X in DNA took me around 32 hours of play time. So when you're considering banning these legends, also consider the implications it has on the users who went out of their way to provide some quality battles to obtain them. It doesn't happen at the drop of a hat; users sacrifice a lot to win tournaments and legends around here. It would be nice for them to reap the rewards of their hard work, as opposed to it just being a trophy for them to display.
EDIT: In retrospect, this post sounds pretty self-absorbed. I want to emphasize that I am fine with whatever we do. I have had some success in tournaments, but it has nothing to do with "amazing skill" or anything. I have had my fair share of luck and setbacks due to a lack of skill. I just want this point to be considered when making banlists.
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Okay I'll weigh in on a few point here. Won't go into detail on the things that are largley agreed upon.
1) Z Moves
It doesn't take a genius or much testing to know that these suck in ASB. That said outside of drastic changes they are likely going to continue to suck. I think it would be worthwhile to test out an increase in the default Z Moves for a match. Maybe 3 to start with so that if you choose to have one Pokemon use its item slot on a Z Crystal at least it gets a couple more uses out of it. This would act to equalise the effect a Z Move can have on showdown with the effect it can have in ASB. It also opens up the possibility of trying some status or boosting Z Moves and then using said boost on an attacking Z Move. Of course matches can already be tested now with more than 1 Z Move use, so this could be a quick litmus test on whether the default should be changed.
3) Ability changes
Much like with Z Moves, unfortunately we are largely bound by Game Freak and that means Talonflame is going to suck more. Although frankly I'm not sure why we are talking about this so much given no one used Taloflame before the change anyway. As far as changes that did matter I agree with most suggestions put forward here. Remove/drop Parental Bond energy cost increases (making it +1 EN like technician is a good starting point), make Prankster toggle and leave Weak Armour as is. Aurumoth was outspeeding most things with +1 spe anyway and the slower Weak Armour mons (read: most of them) greatly appreciate the boost.
5) Legedaries in gyms
This is a bit more of a tricky one. I think AOT's stance on creating a global list of legends which will take up a player's Mega Slot is a great place to start. There are certainly Mega Pokemon that can be considered on par with Xerneus, Zygarde (without Power Construct) and even Victini. I can't see that a challenger bringing Xerneas to the Dragon Gym is that much worse than them bringing Mega Gardevoir. Same can be said for Victini vs Camerupt in a Grass Gym. Sure there are situations where certain legends are much more powerful, but thats just a part of the game and a shifting meta the same as any new CAP or new generation of Pokemon.
Unfortunately for Birkal the differences when talking about Mega Mewto X are a little bit more pronounced. Its hard to argue against the fact that Mega Mewto-X is absurldly powerful. Both in BRT and movepool. Not to mention a very good typing. And while there are other Pokemon in ASB with a similar combination of positive attributes, in my opinion none can be considered as strong as Mega Mewtwo-X. The Mega Slot use as a limitation also doesn't apply very well here since it is both a Mega and a Legendary. But as Birkal has said, he has put a lot of effort into not only getting Mewtwo and also its Mega Stone, and someone at some point made the decision to make said Mega Stone available (whether they considered the implications or not), so I can't consider it completely fair for Birkal to be banned from using his fancy toy either. As far as using Mega Mewtwo-X as a leader in the Fighting Gym goes we run into another speed bump when considering the unique set up of the Fighting Gym. A Mega limitation in a match with 5 megas means nothing clearly, but on the other hand Mewtwo can only defeat one Pokemon in that format. Its really not unlike getting stuck with your Alakazam vs Heracross or any other of the bad challenger match ups that Birkal is able to engineer with his format. Of course these decisions ultimately come down to the Gym Committee and Birkal to figure out, but these are my 2 cents since public comment was asked for.
and finally I'd like to add one of my own
8) Silvally
Since we can talk about Salazzle for a whole topic I don't mind brining up Silvally here. Silvally is a Pokemon whose in game stats are very good but due to cut offs in ASB do not translate. Base 95 stats are undoubtedly very good in game/in showdown but 3/3/3/3 stats in ASB are not. Currently Silvally can either act as another good coverage Normal Type with above average stats or a type changer who hits moderately hard with its STAB with otherwise lacklustre stats. I would like to once again propose adding the effect of Soothe Bell to Silvally when holding a memory, and likely removing the extra BAP boost to STAB that memories currently provide. Silvally is one of the most exciting things to come from a not very exciting (for ASB at least) new generation and like Z-Moves, I don't believe it needs testing for an educated and experienced ASBer to admit that in its current state, Silvally is underwhelming. If this change proves to be too powerful then nothing is preventing us from scaling it back at a later date, but I believe it is a worthwhile change to make. And before anyone mentions Arceus and Multitype, notice how I didn't mention it as it has no bearing on Silvally and RKS Sytem.
1) Z Moves
It doesn't take a genius or much testing to know that these suck in ASB. That said outside of drastic changes they are likely going to continue to suck. I think it would be worthwhile to test out an increase in the default Z Moves for a match. Maybe 3 to start with so that if you choose to have one Pokemon use its item slot on a Z Crystal at least it gets a couple more uses out of it. This would act to equalise the effect a Z Move can have on showdown with the effect it can have in ASB. It also opens up the possibility of trying some status or boosting Z Moves and then using said boost on an attacking Z Move. Of course matches can already be tested now with more than 1 Z Move use, so this could be a quick litmus test on whether the default should be changed.
3) Ability changes
Much like with Z Moves, unfortunately we are largely bound by Game Freak and that means Talonflame is going to suck more. Although frankly I'm not sure why we are talking about this so much given no one used Taloflame before the change anyway. As far as changes that did matter I agree with most suggestions put forward here. Remove/drop Parental Bond energy cost increases (making it +1 EN like technician is a good starting point), make Prankster toggle and leave Weak Armour as is. Aurumoth was outspeeding most things with +1 spe anyway and the slower Weak Armour mons (read: most of them) greatly appreciate the boost.
5) Legedaries in gyms
This is a bit more of a tricky one. I think AOT's stance on creating a global list of legends which will take up a player's Mega Slot is a great place to start. There are certainly Mega Pokemon that can be considered on par with Xerneus, Zygarde (without Power Construct) and even Victini. I can't see that a challenger bringing Xerneas to the Dragon Gym is that much worse than them bringing Mega Gardevoir. Same can be said for Victini vs Camerupt in a Grass Gym. Sure there are situations where certain legends are much more powerful, but thats just a part of the game and a shifting meta the same as any new CAP or new generation of Pokemon.
Unfortunately for Birkal the differences when talking about Mega Mewto X are a little bit more pronounced. Its hard to argue against the fact that Mega Mewto-X is absurldly powerful. Both in BRT and movepool. Not to mention a very good typing. And while there are other Pokemon in ASB with a similar combination of positive attributes, in my opinion none can be considered as strong as Mega Mewtwo-X. The Mega Slot use as a limitation also doesn't apply very well here since it is both a Mega and a Legendary. But as Birkal has said, he has put a lot of effort into not only getting Mewtwo and also its Mega Stone, and someone at some point made the decision to make said Mega Stone available (whether they considered the implications or not), so I can't consider it completely fair for Birkal to be banned from using his fancy toy either. As far as using Mega Mewtwo-X as a leader in the Fighting Gym goes we run into another speed bump when considering the unique set up of the Fighting Gym. A Mega limitation in a match with 5 megas means nothing clearly, but on the other hand Mewtwo can only defeat one Pokemon in that format. Its really not unlike getting stuck with your Alakazam vs Heracross or any other of the bad challenger match ups that Birkal is able to engineer with his format. Of course these decisions ultimately come down to the Gym Committee and Birkal to figure out, but these are my 2 cents since public comment was asked for.
and finally I'd like to add one of my own
8) Silvally
Since we can talk about Salazzle for a whole topic I don't mind brining up Silvally here. Silvally is a Pokemon whose in game stats are very good but due to cut offs in ASB do not translate. Base 95 stats are undoubtedly very good in game/in showdown but 3/3/3/3 stats in ASB are not. Currently Silvally can either act as another good coverage Normal Type with above average stats or a type changer who hits moderately hard with its STAB with otherwise lacklustre stats. I would like to once again propose adding the effect of Soothe Bell to Silvally when holding a memory, and likely removing the extra BAP boost to STAB that memories currently provide. Silvally is one of the most exciting things to come from a not very exciting (for ASB at least) new generation and like Z-Moves, I don't believe it needs testing for an educated and experienced ASBer to admit that in its current state, Silvally is underwhelming. If this change proves to be too powerful then nothing is preventing us from scaling it back at a later date, but I believe it is a worthwhile change to make. And before anyone mentions Arceus and Multitype, notice how I didn't mention it as it has no bearing on Silvally and RKS Sytem.
I guess I'll use this post to answer a question to try and get minds flowing with ideas:
1) How do you feel about the Z-Moves mechanic and why?
Instead of commenting about how good (or bad) they are since most people have covered it, I will talk about some experiences with them and some strats I have been working on accommodating them, because while they are fairly underwhelming I will admit, they do have a place in ASB even in their current state, and also because sharing thoughts helps improve the playerbase.
One thing I have been testing out Z-Moves with is Eevium Z in Doubles. I'll link you this post and talk about it. This is a strategy I call Evobat. It's a strategy that revolves around getting Simple onto Eevee so when it uses Extreme Evoboost, it gets +4 Atk/Def/SpA/SpD/Spe. This is critical as it allows Eevee to have access to a 42 BAP nuke option in one action. This is where Swoobat also comes in, because it can Skill Swap Simple to Eevee (for Adaptability) use Psych Up on Eevee to get the boosts and also drop 42 BAP nukes, meaning you have two 42 BAP nukes on the field. Eevee can also use Baton Pass to pass its permanent boosts to something like Primeape or Krookodile and let it have a 42 BAP Physical option that isn't outright walled by Dark-types. What's even more dangerous is using Stored Power + Stored Power or Power Trip + Power Trip as the move gets enough BAP to outright one-shot most neutral targets after boosts. The strategy has some kinks to iron out, but I feel like it's an okay option for Doubles although I feel it is not a very reliable strategy as a whole since it mostly depends on you ordering second and the opponent not knowing what they are doing (which makes this strategy as a whole fairly gimmicky) and there are a few stops to it (Taunt is not a stop) like... just using a Dark-type. Not to mention it's fairly predictable. Nevertheless Eevium Z is a dangerous tool in the right hands, especially in Doubles. The battle went fairly okay, I didn't have Psych Up on Swoobat though which sucked though I have rectified that.
Another thing I have been starting to test out is Normalium Z Cawmodore. Cawmodore got a useful new toy this generation in Anchor Shot which allows it to trap things it wants to take out (which there are in abundance thanks to Cawmodore's solid defensive typing and Volt Absorb), and Normalium Z which reduces the damage it takes from Belly Drum. Z-Belly Drum can do pretty well, especially after a few actions of damage where the effective HP cost of using Z-Belly Drum drops and then you have a +6 Attack monster on your hands. Auto-Taunt sucks but it can be played around, as is EN Cost stuff even though it costs 30 EN to use. Also allows Drain Punch to really hurt things that otherwise laugh at it like Steel-types. There's still some more testing I want to do with it, but I feel like Normalium Z Cawmodore could do very well in this metagame, especially with the low competition for the Z-Move Slot.
So yeah, that's the extent of what I have played with for Z-Moves at the moment, and I feel like there's a bunch of combinations that are still waiting to be discovered, all they need is an innovative set of eyes to look at them!
1) How do you feel about the Z-Moves mechanic and why?
Instead of commenting about how good (or bad) they are since most people have covered it, I will talk about some experiences with them and some strats I have been working on accommodating them, because while they are fairly underwhelming I will admit, they do have a place in ASB even in their current state, and also because sharing thoughts helps improve the playerbase.
One thing I have been testing out Z-Moves with is Eevium Z in Doubles. I'll link you this post and talk about it. This is a strategy I call Evobat. It's a strategy that revolves around getting Simple onto Eevee so when it uses Extreme Evoboost, it gets +4 Atk/Def/SpA/SpD/Spe. This is critical as it allows Eevee to have access to a 42 BAP nuke option in one action. This is where Swoobat also comes in, because it can Skill Swap Simple to Eevee (for Adaptability) use Psych Up on Eevee to get the boosts and also drop 42 BAP nukes, meaning you have two 42 BAP nukes on the field. Eevee can also use Baton Pass to pass its permanent boosts to something like Primeape or Krookodile and let it have a 42 BAP Physical option that isn't outright walled by Dark-types. What's even more dangerous is using Stored Power + Stored Power or Power Trip + Power Trip as the move gets enough BAP to outright one-shot most neutral targets after boosts. The strategy has some kinks to iron out, but I feel like it's an okay option for Doubles although I feel it is not a very reliable strategy as a whole since it mostly depends on you ordering second and the opponent not knowing what they are doing (which makes this strategy as a whole fairly gimmicky) and there are a few stops to it (Taunt is not a stop) like... just using a Dark-type. Not to mention it's fairly predictable. Nevertheless Eevium Z is a dangerous tool in the right hands, especially in Doubles. The battle went fairly okay, I didn't have Psych Up on Swoobat though which sucked though I have rectified that.
Another thing I have been starting to test out is Normalium Z Cawmodore. Cawmodore got a useful new toy this generation in Anchor Shot which allows it to trap things it wants to take out (which there are in abundance thanks to Cawmodore's solid defensive typing and Volt Absorb), and Normalium Z which reduces the damage it takes from Belly Drum. Z-Belly Drum can do pretty well, especially after a few actions of damage where the effective HP cost of using Z-Belly Drum drops and then you have a +6 Attack monster on your hands. Auto-Taunt sucks but it can be played around, as is EN Cost stuff even though it costs 30 EN to use. Also allows Drain Punch to really hurt things that otherwise laugh at it like Steel-types. There's still some more testing I want to do with it, but I feel like Normalium Z Cawmodore could do very well in this metagame, especially with the low competition for the Z-Move Slot.
So yeah, that's the extent of what I have played with for Z-Moves at the moment, and I feel like there's a bunch of combinations that are still waiting to be discovered, all they need is an innovative set of eyes to look at them!
I'm surprised no one has suggested the possibility of dual wielding a z crystal
long post on z-status moves time. for the record, i agree z moves need a buff, but very much disagree with giving them that buff by giving them more uses, and three uses
most z-status moves are, clearly, underwhelming. (read: they suck and are usually just blatantly worse than expert belt/sig item, because they just boost a random stat +1 stage). i'm not going to go through all of these because they are basically never useful and the only time there might be an exception is if you equip a z crystal intending to do something else with it, but then one of these presents a better option because it lets you hit a health total with precision.
i'm going to go through the actually decent ones to use on purpose here:
every speed-booster attached to an actually decent move in the first place(aurora veil, grass whistle, encore, hypnosis, sing, skill swap are the most obvious ones): if you were going to use the move anyway you basically just gave the mon a choice scarf minus the drawback, which is a decent item if it causes you to outspeed. not amazing, especially considering it's countered by any speed lowering move ever, but decent.
various moves that copy other moves(mirror move, copycat, me first, snatch)- these all copy z moves (unless i'm actually missing something about it in which case somebody should tell me, i know for a fact that the first three do though), which makes all of them except arguably copycat decent because they get to use a z move and actually get a significant boost for it(mirror move gives +2 atk, me first/snatch give 2 speed stages, which are both really nice, and +1 acc sucks(at least relatively), sorry copycat.) update: snatch doesn't. the rest still do though, and snatch is decent(see above paragraph)
z-splash i'm just going to mention even though it sucks because its additional boost to the move would be really good as an item on its own. it sucks though because it's effectively just swords dance, which isn't good, that you can't even force on a p/e move well because equipping a normalium z telegraphs it
evoboost is ridiculous, but it's also on eevee and hard countered by haze/psych up which having comes at no opportunity cost
the +1 all stats moves are a nice boost, but the only ones you want to be using ever in the first place are geomancy, which is locked to the legendary xerneas, trick-or-treat, which is only on edit: gourgeist, and conversion, which you don't want to be forcing yourself to use(although it's nice because porygon2/z can also use conversion2, which is a nice heal) forest's curse is a decent move but nothing with it gets any significant use out of it
heal block/psycho shift are cool if you're going to use the move anyway, but bad otherwise. fortunately, most mons that are going to use this can alternately use it on imprison or teleport, both of which are similarly useful in specific situations
all the healing moves, including memento/parting shot, are occasionally nice, and then parting shot/teleport in particular are insane because you were likely going to use the move anyway. same can sometimes go for heal bell/aromatherapy/refresh/haze/psych up... yeah
z-belly drum in particular seems nice, but it's biggest problem is that in exchange for locking yourself into having to use belly drum(since most abusers don't have a particularly good alternative normal z-move), while you are getting more hp, this hp isn't going into belly drum hp totals but rather hp totals where you're attacking at normal levels
not going to talk about the normal z-damage moves because those have been talked about a lot already in this thread, imo though whatever we do to z crystals should either be buffing the actual moves(less ideal because that opens the floodgates to silliness)
tl;dr the only z crystals that are honestly legitimately worth it are psychicium z on <thing that knows teleport> and flyinium z on <thing that knows mirror move> imo, with normalium z porygon-z and normalium z belly drum abuse being the only exceptions
@ other topics:
silvally - idrc
fluffy - just make it +5/-5 imo
EDIT: added tl;dr
most z-status moves are, clearly, underwhelming. (read: they suck and are usually just blatantly worse than expert belt/sig item, because they just boost a random stat +1 stage). i'm not going to go through all of these because they are basically never useful and the only time there might be an exception is if you equip a z crystal intending to do something else with it, but then one of these presents a better option because it lets you hit a health total with precision.
i'm going to go through the actually decent ones to use on purpose here:
every speed-booster attached to an actually decent move in the first place(aurora veil, grass whistle, encore, hypnosis, sing, skill swap are the most obvious ones): if you were going to use the move anyway you basically just gave the mon a choice scarf minus the drawback, which is a decent item if it causes you to outspeed. not amazing, especially considering it's countered by any speed lowering move ever, but decent.
various moves that copy other moves(mirror move, copycat, me first, snatch)- these all copy z moves (unless i'm actually missing something about it in which case somebody should tell me, i know for a fact that the first three do though), which makes all of them except arguably copycat decent because they get to use a z move and actually get a significant boost for it(mirror move gives +2 atk, me first/snatch give 2 speed stages, which are both really nice, and +1 acc sucks(at least relatively), sorry copycat.) update: snatch doesn't. the rest still do though, and snatch is decent(see above paragraph)
z-splash i'm just going to mention even though it sucks because its additional boost to the move would be really good as an item on its own. it sucks though because it's effectively just swords dance, which isn't good, that you can't even force on a p/e move well because equipping a normalium z telegraphs it
evoboost is ridiculous, but it's also on eevee and hard countered by haze/psych up which having comes at no opportunity cost
the +1 all stats moves are a nice boost, but the only ones you want to be using ever in the first place are geomancy, which is locked to the legendary xerneas, trick-or-treat, which is only on edit: gourgeist, and conversion, which you don't want to be forcing yourself to use(although it's nice because porygon2/z can also use conversion2, which is a nice heal) forest's curse is a decent move but nothing with it gets any significant use out of it
heal block/psycho shift are cool if you're going to use the move anyway, but bad otherwise. fortunately, most mons that are going to use this can alternately use it on imprison or teleport, both of which are similarly useful in specific situations
all the healing moves, including memento/parting shot, are occasionally nice, and then parting shot/teleport in particular are insane because you were likely going to use the move anyway. same can sometimes go for heal bell/aromatherapy/refresh/haze/psych up... yeah
z-belly drum in particular seems nice, but it's biggest problem is that in exchange for locking yourself into having to use belly drum(since most abusers don't have a particularly good alternative normal z-move), while you are getting more hp, this hp isn't going into belly drum hp totals but rather hp totals where you're attacking at normal levels
not going to talk about the normal z-damage moves because those have been talked about a lot already in this thread, imo though whatever we do to z crystals should either be buffing the actual moves(less ideal because that opens the floodgates to silliness)
tl;dr the only z crystals that are honestly legitimately worth it are psychicium z on <thing that knows teleport> and flyinium z on <thing that knows mirror move> imo, with normalium z porygon-z and normalium z belly drum abuse being the only exceptions
@ other topics:
silvally - idrc
fluffy - just make it +5/-5 imo
EDIT: added tl;dr
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1) Z-Crystals
Is it really that appalling to leave the item as a specifically niche choice? Like, I agree that the items sucks, but changing things about it without actually potentially breaking it seems rather difficult given the massive effects that these moves have. I'd like to see people consider Z-Crystals when they just need the option of a little but more burst, or they worked a specific strategy around it, like the 2 ideas that IAR mentioned above. We don't go out of way to make other niche'd items highly usable, we shouldn't do it for an item who's core principle just isn't that good in ASB, at least, the strictly offensive component of it.
----
EDIT: I'm still leaving the above statement because I do think it's a valid sentiment to have regarding Z-Crystals. However, talking in IRC has led to a new idea, and I'm particularly fond of it. Credit to Someoneelse and acidphoenix, the idea is to have the Z-Crystal give +1 BAP to moves of its type. e.g Firium Z gives Fire Moves +1 BAP. And this would persist even after the Z-Move has been used.
8) Silvally
I'm indifferent to changing the way Silvally works, solely because I don't think Silvally is close to good currently, but I'd much rather not have Silvally be too good compared to what it is now. I'm opposed to the buff that deadfox proposed for one reason, it essentially just means Silvally will always be a 100/4/4/4/4/95 mon, no matter what typing it chooses, and you cannot remove that if it equips a Memory. For a point of reference, those stats exceed those of Mega Altaria, who just happens to be slower than Silvally. Buffing Silvally in this manner essentially gives you a mon that's guaranteed to have good stats all the time and can choose it's typing based on the situation it is initially sent into. Not to mention it has some very good coverage, and access to a nice support movepool. All-in-all, I'd rather Silvally be a Jack of a Trades, Master of None mon, than a mon that actually becomes a problem because it's indiscriminately strong since it can dance around type weaknesses.
Is it really that appalling to leave the item as a specifically niche choice? Like, I agree that the items sucks, but changing things about it without actually potentially breaking it seems rather difficult given the massive effects that these moves have. I'd like to see people consider Z-Crystals when they just need the option of a little but more burst, or they worked a specific strategy around it, like the 2 ideas that IAR mentioned above. We don't go out of way to make other niche'd items highly usable, we shouldn't do it for an item who's core principle just isn't that good in ASB, at least, the strictly offensive component of it.
----
EDIT: I'm still leaving the above statement because I do think it's a valid sentiment to have regarding Z-Crystals. However, talking in IRC has led to a new idea, and I'm particularly fond of it. Credit to Someoneelse and acidphoenix, the idea is to have the Z-Crystal give +1 BAP to moves of its type. e.g Firium Z gives Fire Moves +1 BAP. And this would persist even after the Z-Move has been used.
16:35:00<phoenix> i will say however
16:35:04<phoenix> that i do 100% disagree
16:35:13<phoenix> with every suggestion of increasing z moves use
16:35:18<+Abra> same
16:35:22<phoenix> for one doing that to 2 moves and leaving it as is might make it broken
16:35:31<phoenix> and doing it to 3 moves would definitely make it broken
16:35:36<+ooraloo> i think we could give the z-moves a little bit more BAP
16:35:37<+Abra> i don’t want araquanids orkoin neutral matchups
16:35:38<+ooraloo> and it'd be fine
16:35:43<phoenix> eh
16:35:59<Jayy> id rather leave z-moves be tbh
16:36:11<+Abra> i still think give them a flat damage boost of like 2?
16:36:12<Jayy> touching the burst ones leaves a lot of room for overscaling
16:36:26<phoenix> honestly they'd be fine with a flat damage boost of 1 even
16:36:26<Toon> !calc (20+3-4.5)
16:36:28<phoenix> or bap of 1
16:36:31<+Abra> yeah
16:36:40<phoenix> i actually like +1 bap to moves of the type
16:36:44<phoenix> fwiw
16:36:58<+ooraloo> you mean, even after the zmove is used?
16:36:59<+Abra> yeah
16:37:02<phoenix> ya
16:37:06<+ooraloo> sweet
16:37:07<Jayy> im perfectly fine with that
16:37:10<+ooraloo> !asbitem firiumz
16:37:14<Jayy> that sounds like a great ide atbh
16:37:17<Jayy> idea*
16:37:28<+ooraloo> they can't be knocked off, can they?
16:37:31<+Abra> nope
16:37:33<Jayy> brb editing my post since i did find a suggest i like
16:37:37<+ooraloo> yeah that sounds great
16:37:47<+ooraloo> it's still overall inferior
16:37:51<+Abra> post irc logs jayy
16:37:54<Jayy> i am
16:37:55<+Abra> give me credit to eat
16:35:04<phoenix> that i do 100% disagree
16:35:13<phoenix> with every suggestion of increasing z moves use
16:35:18<+Abra> same
16:35:22<phoenix> for one doing that to 2 moves and leaving it as is might make it broken
16:35:31<phoenix> and doing it to 3 moves would definitely make it broken
16:35:36<+ooraloo> i think we could give the z-moves a little bit more BAP
16:35:37<+Abra> i don’t want araquanids orkoin neutral matchups
16:35:38<+ooraloo> and it'd be fine
16:35:43<phoenix> eh
16:35:59<Jayy> id rather leave z-moves be tbh
16:36:11<+Abra> i still think give them a flat damage boost of like 2?
16:36:12<Jayy> touching the burst ones leaves a lot of room for overscaling
16:36:26<phoenix> honestly they'd be fine with a flat damage boost of 1 even
16:36:26<Toon> !calc (20+3-4.5)
16:36:28<phoenix> or bap of 1
16:36:31<+Abra> yeah
16:36:40<phoenix> i actually like +1 bap to moves of the type
16:36:44<phoenix> fwiw
16:36:58<+ooraloo> you mean, even after the zmove is used?
16:36:59<+Abra> yeah
16:37:02<phoenix> ya
16:37:06<+ooraloo> sweet
16:37:07<Jayy> im perfectly fine with that
16:37:10<+ooraloo> !asbitem firiumz
16:37:14<Jayy> that sounds like a great ide atbh
16:37:17<Jayy> idea*
16:37:28<+ooraloo> they can't be knocked off, can they?
16:37:31<+Abra> nope
16:37:33<Jayy> brb editing my post since i did find a suggest i like
16:37:37<+ooraloo> yeah that sounds great
16:37:47<+ooraloo> it's still overall inferior
16:37:51<+Abra> post irc logs jayy
16:37:54<Jayy> i am
16:37:55<+Abra> give me credit to eat
8) Silvally
I'm indifferent to changing the way Silvally works, solely because I don't think Silvally is close to good currently, but I'd much rather not have Silvally be too good compared to what it is now. I'm opposed to the buff that deadfox proposed for one reason, it essentially just means Silvally will always be a 100/4/4/4/4/95 mon, no matter what typing it chooses, and you cannot remove that if it equips a Memory. For a point of reference, those stats exceed those of Mega Altaria, who just happens to be slower than Silvally. Buffing Silvally in this manner essentially gives you a mon that's guaranteed to have good stats all the time and can choose it's typing based on the situation it is initially sent into. Not to mention it has some very good coverage, and access to a nice support movepool. All-in-all, I'd rather Silvally be a Jack of a Trades, Master of None mon, than a mon that actually becomes a problem because it's indiscriminately strong since it can dance around type weaknesses.
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Sableye is the ONE POKEMON not affected by this change (in fact it only benefits from it) since it can use Stall to remove the priority of it's moves and now doesn't care from Skill Swap/Trace so much. Toggle seems fair to me.
As you can see from the NDA entry (bold by me for emphasis), the priority boost from a Pokemon's Prankster ability isn't what makes the Dark-Type immune to their status moves. Stall or no stall, Sableye isn't touching other Dark-Types without finding a way to lose Prankster. I will admit that I hadn't considered Skill Swap, though.NDA said:
I still don't see the need to allow Prankster to be toggled. Yes, it's a devastating nerf, but the ability was very strong before now, not to mention that all of these arguments are based on theoreymonning. Give it a few weeks/months before making a decision.
Quite frankly, I'm not fond of giving it a waiting period. That's a massive change to the way an ability works. What we're talking about is the capability to remove effectively a third of a mon's effective movepool, which is absolutely ridiculous. Additionally, Sableye is not the only Prankster mon out there, or have we all forgotten that Mega Banette exists? Also Whimsicott, Klefki, and probably more mons I cannot think of off hand.
That aside: That change cuts one third of a mon's movepool off from usage given that matchup. That's too large of a change to go unnoticed, especially when utility is so important in ASB.
That aside: That change cuts one third of a mon's movepool off from usage given that matchup. That's too large of a change to go unnoticed, especially when utility is so important in ASB.
Counterargument to making Prankster a toggle ability: see the Gale Wings discussion. Ability nerfs happen between generations, and unless the result is absolutely gamebreaking we tend not to change them, or at least not to hotfix them in so quick and drastic a manner. Pokemon get buffed and nerfed during generation changes, and we tend to respect that unless it really messes with the game.
More possibly to be added based on IRC conversation
Summary from Texas: <Texas> the prankster change is a large debuff vs dark mons in a niche situation. it is not metagame defining, it does not significantly affect the viability of prankster mons, there is no impetusfor change
More possibly to be added based on IRC conversation
Summary from Texas: <Texas> the prankster change is a large debuff vs dark mons in a niche situation. it is not metagame defining, it does not significantly affect the viability of prankster mons, there is no impetusfor change
Someoneelse
Why am I here?
Hi.
Since white-listing was done via council decision, I suppose I have to bring this up here instead of just doing it myself.
I wanna make it easier to be white-listed to self-ref. I mean, right now it is tested much more than what is really necessary. The testing part is done as it is because on the voting held it is said that white-listing is part of a "program", that has to explore obscure stuff.
What I am proposing is that we separate white-listing from undertaking a proper "mentorship program" and merely have it as a test. So we can just put on a test with settings similar to what a self-reffed match could have and call it a day.
Adding to it, we would keep Reffing 202 and add a new class of Refs: Advanced Refs (or Experienced Refs idk, something of the like). Those refs would be the only ones allowed to ref high-gear matches (tourney matches after a certain point, some RPs etc - the specific limitations could be set by RP managers, Tourney hosts and specific coms should they feel necessary) and would have prizes to match the extra requirements. The prize part is not my turf, so disregard it.
So basically what I am proposing is:
a) Refs are white-listed after passing a test. Nothing involving a proper reffing mentorship program (aka nothing that involves a guy trying to make you learn something, just a plain test). The test would be held using the mentorship threads and tutors, but it wouldn't have any learning purpose.
b) Refs that pass Reffing 202 are to be considered "Advanced Refs". Those refs not only are white-listed by default, but also tournament hosts as well as RP managers can choose to restrict their most important matches so only those refs can ref them.
EDIT: BTW when I say test I mean basically:
1) Apply for being white-listed
2) Send me 15 matches you have reffed in the last 2 months. If you sugar-pick you will be rejected
3) If I have doubts after seeing your battles, battle me in a 3vs3 singles with you self-reffing.
Since white-listing was done via council decision, I suppose I have to bring this up here instead of just doing it myself.
I wanna make it easier to be white-listed to self-ref. I mean, right now it is tested much more than what is really necessary. The testing part is done as it is because on the voting held it is said that white-listing is part of a "program", that has to explore obscure stuff.
What I am proposing is that we separate white-listing from undertaking a proper "mentorship program" and merely have it as a test. So we can just put on a test with settings similar to what a self-reffed match could have and call it a day.
Adding to it, we would keep Reffing 202 and add a new class of Refs: Advanced Refs (or Experienced Refs idk, something of the like). Those refs would be the only ones allowed to ref high-gear matches (tourney matches after a certain point, some RPs etc - the specific limitations could be set by RP managers, Tourney hosts and specific coms should they feel necessary) and would have prizes to match the extra requirements. The prize part is not my turf, so disregard it.
So basically what I am proposing is:
a) Refs are white-listed after passing a test. Nothing involving a proper reffing mentorship program (aka nothing that involves a guy trying to make you learn something, just a plain test). The test would be held using the mentorship threads and tutors, but it wouldn't have any learning purpose.
b) Refs that pass Reffing 202 are to be considered "Advanced Refs". Those refs not only are white-listed by default, but also tournament hosts as well as RP managers can choose to restrict their most important matches so only those refs can ref them.
EDIT: BTW when I say test I mean basically:
1) Apply for being white-listed
2) Send me 15 matches you have reffed in the last 2 months. If you sugar-pick you will be rejected
3) If I have doubts after seeing your battles, battle me in a 3vs3 singles with you self-reffing.
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I like Frosty's idea above. Aside from that, some stuff regarding game length that I'd like to talk about:
TLR / Gym League length:
Raised by smash, I'm adding the words "Gym League" because Frosty had been remarking in IRC about how it took him the majority of ASB's lifespan just to get within reach of a full set of Gym Badges, with hisnear claimed to be perfect run to boot. That's a measurement in years, not months or weeks. So the question being: Should TLR/Raids/Gym League or whatever endgame content be so inaccessible unless an ASBer invests years into this game?
People are going to disagree vehemently with me for this, but I shall say yes, because this is a game that is developed and maintained by the playerbase itself. We need people to referee the matches, assume the Gym Leaderships, devise and approve arenas, and so on and so forth. The natural result will be that a significant portion of our game time will be spent waiting - on referees, on opponents, on claim approvers, etc. We can speed up the process by pipelining and parallel-challenging, for example having 2 Gym battle slots as challengers, but that does not mitigate our need for human resources in terms of referees and opponents. Unless the playerbase grows significantly enough,or we manage to build a reffbot, I doubt we can increase Gym, TLR, or even Tower slots to the point that the only bottleneck in accessing endgame content is the speed and skill of the player him/her/itself.
Smash did suggest that we trim the length in exchange for ramping up the difficulty, which I think could be explored - in Gym League terms, I suppose I can, for example, cut down on team size in Rock Gym from 5v5 to 3v3 in exchange for maybe slightly more buffs to the defending Rock team. It might mitigate the cooldown imposed by any accidental setbacks due to RNG, an instantaneous misplay, etc etc. Another suggestion that pops into my mind, specifically concerning TLRs, is to create more save points, although I will admit that detracts from the TLR's objective of demanding perfect planning and execution.
If pressed with the "how many years do you think it should take to finish all endgame content?", my (ideal) ballpark would be 1.5 to 2. Maybe we can come up with the infrastructure so that this is possible with a big enough userbase, but as of right now, I'm not entirely convinced we can achieve it.
TLR / Gym League length:
Raised by smash, I'm adding the words "Gym League" because Frosty had been remarking in IRC about how it took him the majority of ASB's lifespan just to get within reach of a full set of Gym Badges, with his
People are going to disagree vehemently with me for this, but I shall say yes, because this is a game that is developed and maintained by the playerbase itself. We need people to referee the matches, assume the Gym Leaderships, devise and approve arenas, and so on and so forth. The natural result will be that a significant portion of our game time will be spent waiting - on referees, on opponents, on claim approvers, etc. We can speed up the process by pipelining and parallel-challenging, for example having 2 Gym battle slots as challengers, but that does not mitigate our need for human resources in terms of referees and opponents. Unless the playerbase grows significantly enough,
Smash did suggest that we trim the length in exchange for ramping up the difficulty, which I think could be explored - in Gym League terms, I suppose I can, for example, cut down on team size in Rock Gym from 5v5 to 3v3 in exchange for maybe slightly more buffs to the defending Rock team. It might mitigate the cooldown imposed by any accidental setbacks due to RNG, an instantaneous misplay, etc etc. Another suggestion that pops into my mind, specifically concerning TLRs, is to create more save points, although I will admit that detracts from the TLR's objective of demanding perfect planning and execution.
If pressed with the "how many years do you think it should take to finish all endgame content?", my (ideal) ballpark would be 1.5 to 2. Maybe we can come up with the infrastructure so that this is possible with a big enough userbase, but as of right now, I'm not entirely convinced we can achieve it.
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As someone not involved as much time as a lot of people who participate in this game (and I respect you all for managing to keep this game running) I think that there is maybe a tad too much time inbetween starting, and really being able to participate in major parts of the game, as someone with a bit of survivor bias, I'm totally into this game and don't see myself stopping unless everyone else quits and there is no one else to keep the game running with me, however that's not the point. The point is, I think that this has been grumbled about, and as a newer player who isn't already into the sunk cost fallacy of spending years in the game which might make people more resistant to change, I feel like there are ways to speed up the initial training process. I've been playing the game about the month and am no where near ready to do anything serious game-wise. Sure, you can argue that I could have always been on irc and constantly flash battling, or being like Toon and reffing literally everything in existence like a fricken boss(to the extent of a basic ref) and I'd be fine, but even then, having 6 pokemon who are ready for serious competition is probably not possible within a month, even by only using "Meta-mon", but I could be totally ignorant.
I know little about the TLR mostly because I wouldn't get very far in any of them, though I plan on seeking them out soon. However, my point mostly is, that even if we as a community want to speed the process up for whatever reason, whether it be newbie retention, personal stress levels, because you think it's more fun, whatever. I think either increasing the number of counters received or something to that effect is going to be the only way to effectively speed the "time-frame" of the game up without causing more of a man power issue than there already is. I believe Frosty's proposition to expand the self-reffing list to more people would be a big benefit, we could focus those who want to ref more towards gym battles, TLR, tournaments, Battle Hall, Pike, etc. without stressing out other training/flash/common BT matches, which generally speaking are simple enough to allow for most to ref with little to no problem. And it would probably speed up the other aspects more, because less work on people's plates.
All in all, much like most things I post about, I don't have the perspective of a grizzled veteran nor the time that many my opinion isn't as well liked, understood, or respected as many other members of the community, however, we're all in this together and I've seen nothing complained or commented about more than: How long it takes to train a mon to reasonable level, and that the community is getting smaller. I think that because we are the masters of our own destiny in the sense of game mechanics, it's worth talking about the "length of progression" from beginning to the suppose "end-game" of gym leaders/TLRs/future content, 2-2.5 years sure. Even more if you suck at battling and can't complete the gyms (quicker training =/= better at the game) or we increase the difficulty of the TLRs to decrease the length(I'm not apposed at all) and they become more of a challenge if we're going to make it easier to achieve status to actually attempt them. Thanks for taking the time to read this slight wall of text, and generally ramblings, but I'm just doing my duty of providing my opinion, as honestly we all should be.
I know little about the TLR mostly because I wouldn't get very far in any of them, though I plan on seeking them out soon. However, my point mostly is, that even if we as a community want to speed the process up for whatever reason, whether it be newbie retention, personal stress levels, because you think it's more fun, whatever. I think either increasing the number of counters received or something to that effect is going to be the only way to effectively speed the "time-frame" of the game up without causing more of a man power issue than there already is. I believe Frosty's proposition to expand the self-reffing list to more people would be a big benefit, we could focus those who want to ref more towards gym battles, TLR, tournaments, Battle Hall, Pike, etc. without stressing out other training/flash/common BT matches, which generally speaking are simple enough to allow for most to ref with little to no problem. And it would probably speed up the other aspects more, because less work on people's plates.
All in all, much like most things I post about, I don't have the perspective of a grizzled veteran nor the time that many my opinion isn't as well liked, understood, or respected as many other members of the community, however, we're all in this together and I've seen nothing complained or commented about more than: How long it takes to train a mon to reasonable level, and that the community is getting smaller. I think that because we are the masters of our own destiny in the sense of game mechanics, it's worth talking about the "length of progression" from beginning to the suppose "end-game" of gym leaders/TLRs/future content, 2-2.5 years sure. Even more if you suck at battling and can't complete the gyms (quicker training =/= better at the game) or we increase the difficulty of the TLRs to decrease the length(I'm not apposed at all) and they become more of a challenge if we're going to make it easier to achieve status to actually attempt them. Thanks for taking the time to read this slight wall of text, and generally ramblings, but I'm just doing my duty of providing my opinion, as honestly we all should be.
There are quite a few things I believe this post is confused about, especially when it comes to the comparison between TLRs, raids, and gyms, so I will try to address them.
1) Gyms have a fixed amount of challenges - TLRs and raids don't: Aside from the uncommon circumstance of Gamefreak creating new types (something which insofar happened only two times in over 20 years), the number of gyms is set in stone. Even if it takes, say, 2 months per gym (3 years to finish all 18 gyms, or more realistically 2 years to finish as many gyms as needed to get the main rewards), a player can rest easy knowing that, in a certain sense, he's not "racing against the game". He can spread his effort throughout many years, and yet he is not going to risk falling behind new content.
The same is obviously not true with TLRs and raids, however. Every 3-4 years, a new generation is released, and with it, at least 6 or so legends (often as much as double that number). Similarly, new raids come out as time passes, with a new expansion coming out every 2 or so years (depending on how lazy/aggressive top raiders are, ofc^^). Which means that, in regards to TLRs and raids, the risk of falling behind new content (and being unable to experiment all of it - or even a good portion of it) is a reality for most players. Whether this risk is considered acceptable or not is ofc controversial, but it's there, and it makes the comparison with gyms more tenous than ZhengTann assumed.
2) Gyms and raids do not mostly hold rewards which can greatly affect ASB play - TLRs do: Most of the prizes on the Gym ladder are luxury goods, such as counters and whatnot, which you can get somewhere else anyway. The only rewards which are more exclusive are:
1) TLR rewards, which of course only matter if one is interested in TLRs themselves (and indirectly in the rest of ASB, of course, but this is more of an issue with TLR themselves, not Gyms)
2) Raid Heirlooms, most of which can be obtained within the first 8 badges and which only matter if you are actually interested in raids - and besides, as I've stated many times, no Raid Boss has ever been designed (or ever will) with Heirlooms in mind
3) Heart Scales, which can be obtained as soon as the 3rd badge (not an unreasonable effort, by any means)
4) Victini
Out of these rewards, only Victini stands out as having a direct impact on your ASB performance AND being quite inaccessible for a long time. But it is just one legend, so I'm pretty sure that unless you are a Victini enthusiast, you can live with that.
As for raids, the only rewards you get from raids which you can use outside raids are, well, normal counters. CC, EC, MC, AC, KOC... People who play raids do it because they like raids, not because they are forced to in order to obtain a reward they need for something else. Again, in this sense, they are nothing like TLRs (or even Gyms, really).
TLRs, naturally, are the culprit here. They have a very exclusive set of rewards - legendaries. Most of them can only be obtained in said TLRs - except for occasional tourneys which generally do not reward you the legend(s) you are looking for specificially. This means that what TLRs do, how they are organized, is much more of an "other people's business" than raids (or even Gyms) could possibly be.
3) Flexible endgame content should have compensating mechanisms: This ofc does not touch gyms because (as noted in point 1), there is a fixed number of gyms available. But it does concern TLRs and raids, and it's interesting to show how the two RPs handled these issues differently.
The problem with raids is pretty self-explanatory: for every new expansion which comes out, it becomes harder and harder for new players to experience it. The fact each expansion has tougher bosses, which require better artifacts, means a new player has no hopes of "jumping in" and experience end-game content right off the bat. It is a similar issues many other MMORPG out there face (such as the (in)famous World of Warcraft my RP is inspired to), so it is nothing new or unexpected.
So, unsurprisingly, I decided to handle this issue in the same way they have. Basically, as each expansion comes out, I introduce "compensatory measures" which makes game progression faster than it previously was. For example:
1) Stormrage Mountain raids now drop Badges of Justice (which used to be exclusive to Isles of Lost Relics raids)
2) Previously locked bosses (like Regigigas) can now be accessed and fought even if you have not completed the previous requirements
3) Extra raids and quest have been added (such as Raging Shore) with the sole reason of speeding up the process of getting to Revered/Exalted reputation and get useful artifacts for the next expansion
4) Several IoLR bosses on Normal mode have been nerfed upon releasing the next expansion, in order to allow newer player to have a better shot at them
All these measures serve a very apparent purpose. As the number of raids increases, having players finish them all becomes less and less realistic. At the same time, newer players who find themselves cut out from the possibility of experiencing the newer content may feel discouraged from playing altogether. So, I sacrifice the "old difficulty" of these bosses in order to give newer player a fairer chance at experiencing the same content veterans do.
Now, what about TLRs? Of course, to some extent, the issue is a bit less dire with them, because without artifact progression, you can take on TLRs in whatever order you choose to. However, it would be a mistake to believe that this means TLRs do not pose this issue, at all. Think, for example, of the number of legendaries the veterans have. I personally have seven legendaries (all acquired through TLRs), and a few people who've been around for as long as I have can boast similar numbers. But a person who just joined, say, 1-2 year ago, has absolutely no hope of catching up (unless the old vets stop playing or something I suppose?). Sure, you may be able to catch all the legendaries I currently have, for example. But by the time you have, I will have caught many more. It may take a decade or more before the initial difference no longer matters much.
Now, some of you may think "Who cares if newer players can never catch up?" Then tell me: why have we NEVER applied this same philosophy in ASB as a whole? Maybe some of you have not noticed but, since ASB's inception, we have introduced a HUGE number of measures with the specific intent of making it easier for newer players to catch up. Here's a sample (I'm not even sure if I can list them all):
- We have increased the number of starting Egg and TM moves to 5 for freshmons, up from 3 each
- We have reduced the MC cost of past gen TMs/tutors, Egg moves, and event/anime moves to 2, down from 3
- We have abolished the extra CC cost for buying single-stage Pokemon, as well as making nature changes cheaper in comparison
- We have released held items outside the Battle Subway and other RPs which originally had exclusivity over them
- We reduced the CC cost of training items to 6, down to 20, and eventually gave a free set of them to new players
- We took a more favourable stance towards flash matches, whereas we used to frown upon them as an excessively cheap way of training mons
And the list goes on. The combined effect is that players entering ASB today can actually hope, within 1-2 years at most, to build a roster comparable to the ones of old veterans (excluding the veterans' legends, of course!). Which brings me to the question: Why would legends not count at all in this philosophy?
I can understand that legends are supposed to be "special", "exclusive", or whatever. And I fully agree that some legends are so powerful that they could dramatically alter the ASB metagame if a lot of people owned them. But it is hard to advocate for the former concern when we are speaking of legendaries which have been available (both in generational and TLR-release-time terms) for years, and that are so weak that most of them are C-viability rating, at most. I am talking, here, of stuff such as Articuno, Zapdos, Moltres, Raikou, Entei, Suicune, and so on.
I'm not asking, here, to give them out for free. Nobody would want that. And I'm not asking to give them out in an easier challenge than TLRs, either. But, we could consider giving them out in a less time consuming way (while still keeping them available in TLRs as they used to be), so that people can obtain them while still pursuing the newer, or more prized, content in TLRs. I'm pretty sure this is something we can all agree on - and not just in regards to UBs.
One last word about content going neglected. I speak here as the developer of the Raid Zone, so cut me some slack for possibly sounding a bit haughty. The truth is, I spend a lot of the time designing, playtesting, and personally reffing the content I make for players, without anybody helping me in any shape or form. I do care about the stuff I design. But I have the common sense of understanding that, as time passes, some of the content I have designed will be eventually "forgotten", in that nobody will ever play it again (well, at least, not unless overgeared).
Among these "neglected" raids there are some I personally loved to design and play, such as Eye of the Storm and Shrine of the Old Gods. Heck, some of the raids have not even been played in both modes, despite the fact I did spend hours playtesting each mode (which means hours over hours of my work still are, and prolly will forever be, useless). And yet, you don't see me whining about this all over the place, or putting my designer petty needs over players' enjoyment. It is sort of like being a Dungeon Master in a Dungeons&Dragons group: in order to be prepared for everything, and offering real choices to your players, you end up designing a lot of stuff which, one way or the other, will go unused. This happens even in professional game designing. A lot of what designers do does not make it to the final product. Or it does, but it becomes forgotten after a few years of new content. But that's part of the job. If you cannot accept it, frankly, you should quit designing job altogether. Not TLR design, but design PERIOD.
EDIT: Incidentally, Endless's post above me pretty much sums up my point about newer players quite damn well
Alright, unpopular opinion time.
Doesn't have to do with TLRs or the other stuff being discussed, but this seems as good a place as any to bring it up: I don't see why Charged Stone is as strong as it is on Vikavolt.
For reference, Charged Stone boosts Vikavolt's SpA from R6 to R7 (before nature) and grants it the effects of the Battery ability, boosting its special attacks by 2BAP. While I'm not saying that Vikavolt is busted or too strong by any means, I do believe that Charged Stone is significantly stronger than other mons' sig items. For comparison's sake, Rare Candy (which is our own self-imposed benchmark for sig items) would boost Vikavolt's SpA from R6 to R7 and its Bug- and Electric-type moves by 1BAP. Not only does Vikavolt get a +2 boost instead of the usual +1, this boost applies to all special moves instead of just STAB moves. This is probably unnecessary, especially for a mon with natural R6 SpA and really good, high-BAP coverage.
We're already seeing that Vikavolt is plenty strong as it is in current tournaments, and while it's gonna get worse in the regular meta where mons are faster and Knock Off is everywhere, I don't see the point of making Charged Stone as good as it is.
tl;dr: nitpicking, but make Charged Stone give +1 instead of +2 imo =)
Doesn't have to do with TLRs or the other stuff being discussed, but this seems as good a place as any to bring it up: I don't see why Charged Stone is as strong as it is on Vikavolt.
For reference, Charged Stone boosts Vikavolt's SpA from R6 to R7 (before nature) and grants it the effects of the Battery ability, boosting its special attacks by 2BAP. While I'm not saying that Vikavolt is busted or too strong by any means, I do believe that Charged Stone is significantly stronger than other mons' sig items. For comparison's sake, Rare Candy (which is our own self-imposed benchmark for sig items) would boost Vikavolt's SpA from R6 to R7 and its Bug- and Electric-type moves by 1BAP. Not only does Vikavolt get a +2 boost instead of the usual +1, this boost applies to all special moves instead of just STAB moves. This is probably unnecessary, especially for a mon with natural R6 SpA and really good, high-BAP coverage.
We're already seeing that Vikavolt is plenty strong as it is in current tournaments, and while it's gonna get worse in the regular meta where mons are faster and Knock Off is everywhere, I don't see the point of making Charged Stone as good as it is.
tl;dr: nitpicking, but make Charged Stone give +1 instead of +2 imo =)
YellowAdminSilver: It's not the only signature item with powerful effects. For example, Thunder Stone does a lot for Raichu (increasing both offense, the power of Thunder moves, free Lightningrod etc). Until we get to see how Vikavolt behaves in a normal environment, I'd wait before calling for a nerf.
I'd argue that most of the items with really strong effects are restricted to mons that are much much weaker than Vikavolt, but that's a fair point I guess. Pls remind me to bring this up again in a month or so if this is still relevant :p
I'll make it known.
I am in the camp that agrees that TLR needs an overhaul. The current format I argue is broken. The format is far too taxing on the players because of the sheer length and the insanity of some encounters. Yes there might be a tangible prize at the end, but most of the time, the reward isn't worth it. The format is far too taxing on the referee because they must play as the "house" and are consistently under pressure to make sure that the player has a hard time. The format is far too taxing on designers because of the amount of encounters you have to think about, the length, scenario amounts, flavour, etc, etc, etc, and you wonder why it takes a long time to design one. And this does not take into account play-testing which designers aren't obligated to do.
And then you wonder why TLR challenges take a long time to complete. And no, trying to make it shorter by adding a DQ time does not fix this. Instead, it sweeps the issue under the rug and adds unnecessary time pressure on the players, making TLR's much harder to win because the player now has to worry about how much time they have to order and this is kinda why i am even considering abolishing tlr dq times.
TLR should be shorter, much shorter. I saw zarator say something about reducing TLR to a three-part challenge while viewing IRC logs for the first time in a while half an hour ago. I feel like this is a good starting point, taking out unnecessary fluff that artificially extends time and making challenges take less time to complete. This also has the added bonus of reducing the difficulty of TLR's which I feel is a good thing because it encourages more people to play the RP and also helps deal with the "Hard TLR, Bad Legend" "Easy TLR, Useful Legend" that this RP tends to have. There are probably other solutions that can help, but the point is that TLR is far too long and far too brutal that I feel that the format needs to change.
Another point I saw on IRC was the possibility of allowing lesser legends in other RP's and ending TLR monopoly. I am in favour of this, and if TLR for whatever reason maintains status quo, this absolutely needs to happen; there is no way people are going to spend four months to catch a Raikou. In terms of difficulty for other RP's awarding them, they should definitely be challenging but not impossible, like, you don't want to give away a legendary like it's a closing sale, but you don't want to make it too hard that it will crush the motivation of people.
My five cents for all they are worth.
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Also as an aside, I'm letting those three discussion threads slide, but anything else we shouldn't create a discussion thread on until SotG is finished. To put it simply, this isn't the feedback thread, this is a discussion thread on the current game state and the issues surrounding it.
I am in the camp that agrees that TLR needs an overhaul. The current format I argue is broken. The format is far too taxing on the players because of the sheer length and the insanity of some encounters. Yes there might be a tangible prize at the end, but most of the time, the reward isn't worth it. The format is far too taxing on the referee because they must play as the "house" and are consistently under pressure to make sure that the player has a hard time. The format is far too taxing on designers because of the amount of encounters you have to think about, the length, scenario amounts, flavour, etc, etc, etc, and you wonder why it takes a long time to design one. And this does not take into account play-testing which designers aren't obligated to do.
And then you wonder why TLR challenges take a long time to complete. And no, trying to make it shorter by adding a DQ time does not fix this. Instead, it sweeps the issue under the rug and adds unnecessary time pressure on the players, making TLR's much harder to win because the player now has to worry about how much time they have to order and this is kinda why i am even considering abolishing tlr dq times.
TLR should be shorter, much shorter. I saw zarator say something about reducing TLR to a three-part challenge while viewing IRC logs for the first time in a while half an hour ago. I feel like this is a good starting point, taking out unnecessary fluff that artificially extends time and making challenges take less time to complete. This also has the added bonus of reducing the difficulty of TLR's which I feel is a good thing because it encourages more people to play the RP and also helps deal with the "Hard TLR, Bad Legend" "Easy TLR, Useful Legend" that this RP tends to have. There are probably other solutions that can help, but the point is that TLR is far too long and far too brutal that I feel that the format needs to change.
Another point I saw on IRC was the possibility of allowing lesser legends in other RP's and ending TLR monopoly. I am in favour of this, and if TLR for whatever reason maintains status quo, this absolutely needs to happen; there is no way people are going to spend four months to catch a Raikou. In terms of difficulty for other RP's awarding them, they should definitely be challenging but not impossible, like, you don't want to give away a legendary like it's a closing sale, but you don't want to make it too hard that it will crush the motivation of people.
My five cents for all they are worth.
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Also as an aside, I'm letting those three discussion threads slide, but anything else we shouldn't create a discussion thread on until SotG is finished. To put it simply, this isn't the feedback thread, this is a discussion thread on the current game state and the issues surrounding it.
Small sidenote, we forgot to make this.
http://serebii.net/itemdex/adrenalineorb.shtml
Should be easy enough to fix though, item is self-explanatory, if a bit terrible.
http://serebii.net/itemdex/adrenalineorb.shtml
Should be easy enough to fix though, item is self-explanatory, if a bit terrible.
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