I think zonger has a place in tier 4 as a Trick Room setter that is also a fairy resist. It definitely has its shortcomings in its weakness to Hoopa/Zard/Tran etc. but its ability to check/set up trick room on Kang, Garde, Diancie, many other mons while also being able to deal some respectable damage with Gyro Ball and offer a pretty wide array of support options (Skill Swap, Metal Sound, Safeguard, Stealth Rock, Imprison) make this mon good enough to stick around in Tier 4.Bronzong -> UR
Sweet shit, this thing is so bad. The new arrivals Hoopa and Volcanion make it even worse, as Bronzong is unable of doing anything in probably 75% of all matchups. Whoa, I can put it on my Trick Room team to beat Diancie! Just use Heatran or something, oh my god. You know what else gets Trick Room and beats Diancie? Jellicent. CM/Moonlight Cress. Use something else, please.
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Lower Tiers Doubles OU Viability Rankings
- Thread starter kamikaze
- Start date
- Status
I'm supposed to be "working" but fuck it right
Mew:
Disputing this nom mainly because it did fairly well in SPL and has good enough utiliy to be 3. I mean if we're going to be putting Cress in 3 Mew is definitely way more versatile and has better utility options, right? It's a huge asset for setup, while hindered by shitty mono-psychic typing still gets love for fast fake out/wisp/sr/transform, or any other kind of move you might want to run on it
Bronzong:
thing's amazing for full TR
Yoda's used a team I built with him almost nonstop since we built it and it has been slaying ever since
consdering ground immunities are worth their weight in gold when you can fit em this thing deserves at least 4
Raichu:
Don't think Raikou comparison is fair at all. Fake Out / Para spam / fast Encore and Lightningrod are all amazing. Admittedly it has faults but if you're like "Fuck I have 5 thundurus weaks" in a team throw Raichu and you'll be k
Ttar+Exca:
Definitely think these two are worth 4 at least. I brought both to my match against Dad1 for PSPL and it absolutely slayed, not to mention KyleCole's own good showings against Stratos in Ssnl Finals. Excadrill is amazing if you've got sand and the right composition for dealing with common sand issues ie amoonguss, waters, landot
Mew:
Disputing this nom mainly because it did fairly well in SPL and has good enough utiliy to be 3. I mean if we're going to be putting Cress in 3 Mew is definitely way more versatile and has better utility options, right? It's a huge asset for setup, while hindered by shitty mono-psychic typing still gets love for fast fake out/wisp/sr/transform, or any other kind of move you might want to run on it
Bronzong:
thing's amazing for full TR
Yoda's used a team I built with him almost nonstop since we built it and it has been slaying ever since
consdering ground immunities are worth their weight in gold when you can fit em this thing deserves at least 4
Raichu:
Don't think Raikou comparison is fair at all. Fake Out / Para spam / fast Encore and Lightningrod are all amazing. Admittedly it has faults but if you're like "Fuck I have 5 thundurus weaks" in a team throw Raichu and you'll be k
Ttar+Exca:
Definitely think these two are worth 4 at least. I brought both to my match against Dad1 for PSPL and it absolutely slayed, not to mention KyleCole's own good showings against Stratos in Ssnl Finals. Excadrill is amazing if you've got sand and the right composition for dealing with common sand issues ie amoonguss, waters, landot
DOU Open V R1:
| Rank | Pokemon | Use | Usage % | Win % |
| 48 | Rotom-Heat | 6 | 1.42% | 16.67% |
I'm pretty sure it's too early to nom this thing again, but when are we dropping this thing 2 -> 3 ??
| Rank | Pokemon | Use | Usage % | Win % |
| 48 | Rotom-Heat | 6 | 1.42% | 16.67% |
I'm pretty sure it's too early to nom this thing again, but when are we dropping this thing 2 -> 3 ??
round 1 doesnt say anything cuz half the players are just in for playoffs points and have never played dou before
Talonflame 1 -> 1.5
ok i think it's time this moved down :(
the metagame has slowed down to the point where hyper offense, the matchup this excels in, is nearly nonexistent. kang genies dominates top play and it's hard for talonflame to hit a meaningful target in these matchups. it's only able to pressure the redirector on these teams but between the genies and either heatran or volcanion, switching into this is pretty easy. the speed advantage that tailwind provides is becoming less and less useful these days. i would not call talonflame meta defining by any means and it really should drop.
Serperior 4 -> UR
this is a pathetic excuse for a competitive pokemon and should never see play because of its horrific weakness to the most common fire-type, awful offensive stats on the first turn, and coverage that leaves it walled by every widely used steel. never use this.
might as well share some thoughts
Talonflame 1 -> 1.5
ok i think it's time this moved down :(
the metagame has slowed down to the point where hyper offense, the matchup this excels in, is nearly nonexistent. kang genies dominates top play and it's hard for talonflame to hit a meaningful target in these matchups. it's only able to pressure the redirector on these teams but between the genies and either heatran or volcanion, switching into this is pretty easy. the speed advantage that tailwind provides is becoming less and less useful these days. i would not call talonflame meta defining by any means and it really should drop.
Serperior 4 -> UR
this is a pathetic excuse for a competitive pokemon and should never see play because of its horrific weakness to the most common fire-type, awful offensive stats on the first turn, and coverage that leaves it walled by every widely used steel. never use this.
I definitely agree with the Serperior nom I've never seen this thing used in my life. one of the few things I disagreed with in n10 and ttree's post was that this thing was better than Virizion but Virizion has been used in winners finals of ssnl to some success.
i think talon is still good (you never said it was bad) as it helps check azurachi in the sense as it can take out rachi after some prior damage and revenge kill azu when rachis down. however, genies is meta defining and talon really struggles against them.
agree with serp nom, not sure about talons but I see what you're saying as azu is probably more meta game defining than talon
i'm not calling talonflame bad because i'm not advocating it to drop to tier 4 or something; it's still a solid pokemon that can shine, namely against a team with azu rachi like you mentioned. however, struggling against the majority of common teams is not a trait that a tier 1 'mon should have. it still has its niche: good revenge killer late game, performs well against hyper offense, has speed control, etc. but the niche isn't as needed these days against the omnipresent bulky teams.
yeah definitely i even said you never said it was bad lol
lets look at some of the other tier 1 mons and see if they struggle against common threats/teams
aegislash: fares ok against azurachi, does big damage to rachi and "walls" (not really) azu if its not knock (but almost all are knock). best check to hyper voice and wide guard's lando, and if it gets hit it activates wp and hits hard.
amoonguss: bad against sun, rachi, but great against rain. punishes physical attacks (kang, terrak) with helmet, fares well against diancie and gard (takes hyper voice, spores) beats genies, but gets walled by tran and blown up by zard/talon
zard: loses to genies (scarf rock slide, tw/tbolt from thundy), gets bopped by kang (but ohkos if 252/252 with overheat), and loses to talon. however, beats tran if hp ground and no ancient power (which isn't common), fares rather well against gard, forces the protect on diancie, blows up aegislash and amoonguss, and has a good matchup against rain.
diancie: walled by amoonguss/aegislash, outsped and ohkod by scarfdog, ohkod by offensive thundy w/ flash cannon (which isn't too common) but beside that, does well against everything else beside sun/rain
gard: if you aren't a steel (2 in tier 1) you aren't taken hyper voices too well. provides good spread move for azurachi but walled by rachi. however, due to its low speed + defense, it it vulnerable to kang and lando. probably the worst matchup against top threats beside talon imo.
tran: beats sun, talon, amoonguss, aegislash, walls zard and gard. bad against rain, azurachi (nothing to azu, rachi takes hw) and kod by diancie, low kick kang and lando. ok against thundy
kang: walled by slash, nukes almost everything else. not good vs. azurachi since it can't do anything to rachi. does take +6 aj if you ev enough
lando: best mon tbh, beats slash, zard, diancie, tran, kang, talon, thundy. good aginast sun, loses to rain, fares well agaisnt azurachi
talon: you explained it well, worst matchup against top tier threats
thundy: twaves everything, ohkos diancie if flash cannon, takes lando rock slides and does massive damage back w/ hp ice. can taunt azu and rachi, fares well against rain and sun, but probably has the 3rd worst mathups against gard and thundy.
looking at this, gard and thundy are the two most "controversial" mons in tier 1. and with talon having even worst matchups, its niche isn't as needed as much, idk if it derserves tier 1. still not 100% ready with it moving to tier 1.5
Totem has been around on the VR council since its inception but after recent inactivity we have decided to allow shaian and SamVGC to fill in his shoes
New Vrank shifts
Votes are in the order Dawg, qsns, Memoric, kamikaze, shaian, SamVGC
Breloom 2-> 3
Rotom-H 2 -> 3
Jellicent 3 -> 2
Jirachi 1.5 -> 1
Crobat UR -> 4
Bisharp 2 -> 3
Cresselia 3 -> 4
Mega Aero 3 -> 4
Genesect 3 -> 4
Virizion 3 -> 4
Kyurem-B 1.5 -> 2
Hoopa-U 1.5 -> 1
Mega Diancie 1 -> 1.5
Volcanion 1.5 -> 1
Suicune 2 -> 3
Mega Abomasnow 3 -> 4
Gyarados 3 -> 2
Mega Metagross 2 -> 3
Final Changes:
Breloom moves from Tier 2 to 3
Jirachi moves from Tier 1.5 to 1
Mega Aero moves from Tier 3 to 4
Virizion moves from Tier 3 to 4
Volcanion moves from Tier 1.5 to 1
Suicune moves from Tier 2 to 3
Mega Abomasnow moves from Tier 3 to 4
Gyarados moves from Tier 3 to 2
Mega Metagross moves from Tier 2 to 3
SamVGC moves from UR to VR Council
shaian moves from UR to VR Council
New Vrank shifts
Votes are in the order Dawg, qsns, Memoric, kamikaze, shaian, SamVGC
Breloom 2-> 3
No, performs multiple roles, as defined in tier 3
bad mon, never threatening enough because of its poor stab coverage and the omnipresence of amoong/goggles blocking spore from being effective. also a sash mon thats outsped and ohkod by kang is garbage
Yes. Its average Speed really holds it back. While it has a strong niche in being a fast Sporer, it can only really work in a Tailwind-supported build due to it not working well with other methods of Speed control such as TR and Thunder Wave (can't spore Para'd mons). It's also fairly one-dimensional because it can only really run Focus Sash effectively due to being really frail. In practice, its offenses can be a bit lacking too, Bullet Seed being a bit unreliable and often being a bit short, and the presence of Amoonguss and Safety Goggles in the meta is a problem for it as well.
Abstain
Abstain. Performs multiple roles reasonably well, and being the fastest Spore user in the game is always nifty. However it's held back by a mediocre base Speed and a less spammable priority compared to Bisharp makes getting around that much harder, and every team running multiple ways to deal with Spore / Rage Powder cheapen one of its main draws.
Yes, doesn't receive enough high level usage and is extremely dependent on sleep turns
bad mon, never threatening enough because of its poor stab coverage and the omnipresence of amoong/goggles blocking spore from being effective. also a sash mon thats outsped and ohkod by kang is garbage
Yes. Its average Speed really holds it back. While it has a strong niche in being a fast Sporer, it can only really work in a Tailwind-supported build due to it not working well with other methods of Speed control such as TR and Thunder Wave (can't spore Para'd mons). It's also fairly one-dimensional because it can only really run Focus Sash effectively due to being really frail. In practice, its offenses can be a bit lacking too, Bullet Seed being a bit unreliable and often being a bit short, and the presence of Amoonguss and Safety Goggles in the meta is a problem for it as well.
Abstain
Abstain. Performs multiple roles reasonably well, and being the fastest Spore user in the game is always nifty. However it's held back by a mediocre base Speed and a less spammable priority compared to Bisharp makes getting around that much harder, and every team running multiple ways to deal with Spore / Rage Powder cheapen one of its main draws.
Yes, doesn't receive enough high level usage and is extremely dependent on sleep turns
Rotom-H 2 -> 3
No, performs more than 1 role, as defined in tier 3
i will defend this mon to the grave. good amoong answer, good thund answer, good heatran answer, and wisp is a great tool. no
Yes. It's a Pokemon that I see as a jack-of-all-trades, a pick that's mostly for compressing some roles on a single slot. While it is a good Fire- and Electric-type in the meta, it's not really the top cut choice for either; when I think of a bulky Fire, it's usually Heatran and Volcanion that first comes to mine, while when it comes to Electric-types it's Thundurus and Rotom-W. Rotom-H, thanks to its typing, does check a unique set of threats, including the aforementioned Electrics due to being resistant. Still, I don't think that's enough to compensate for its mediocrity in doing its roles; often, it can just get a bit overloaded. It's also a bit frailer compared to other stuff, while offensively it's hit-or-miss with Overheat's drawback. It'd fit in at 3 imo but it's cool either way.
No. I will defend that this mon isnt garbage. As a fire type that is able to handle all the other ever present fire types its pretty useful, along with being able to handle the ever present thundurus, jirachi, and amoonguss (except not being able to ohko Volcanion kinda sucks)
Abstain. A Fire-type that can deal with every other Fire-type, can use dual-status moves reasonably well, and it can cover multiple roles on a team means it will always have a reasonable value. However, it has a major issue in that it can only use its most powerful move once before either being significantly weaker or being forced to switch, it has decent defenses but is held back its poor HP and its defensive typing is no where near as good as Rotom-W, which is why its a hard pick when building. I can see it at 3, but in my experiences using it I would say 2 is also a good fit. Start using it offensively and it doesn't feel like a shittier Rotom-W.
Yes, with the introduction of Volcanion it has even more competition for a fire type slot
i will defend this mon to the grave. good amoong answer, good thund answer, good heatran answer, and wisp is a great tool. no
Yes. It's a Pokemon that I see as a jack-of-all-trades, a pick that's mostly for compressing some roles on a single slot. While it is a good Fire- and Electric-type in the meta, it's not really the top cut choice for either; when I think of a bulky Fire, it's usually Heatran and Volcanion that first comes to mine, while when it comes to Electric-types it's Thundurus and Rotom-W. Rotom-H, thanks to its typing, does check a unique set of threats, including the aforementioned Electrics due to being resistant. Still, I don't think that's enough to compensate for its mediocrity in doing its roles; often, it can just get a bit overloaded. It's also a bit frailer compared to other stuff, while offensively it's hit-or-miss with Overheat's drawback. It'd fit in at 3 imo but it's cool either way.
No. I will defend that this mon isnt garbage. As a fire type that is able to handle all the other ever present fire types its pretty useful, along with being able to handle the ever present thundurus, jirachi, and amoonguss (except not being able to ohko Volcanion kinda sucks)
Abstain. A Fire-type that can deal with every other Fire-type, can use dual-status moves reasonably well, and it can cover multiple roles on a team means it will always have a reasonable value. However, it has a major issue in that it can only use its most powerful move once before either being significantly weaker or being forced to switch, it has decent defenses but is held back its poor HP and its defensive typing is no where near as good as Rotom-W, which is why its a hard pick when building. I can see it at 3, but in my experiences using it I would say 2 is also a good fit. Start using it offensively and it doesn't feel like a shittier Rotom-W.
Yes, with the introduction of Volcanion it has even more competition for a fire type slot
Jellicent 3 -> 2
Abstain, similar to Gyarados, but i haven't seen enough positive versatile play to indicate Tier 2, would be open to voting yes in the future though.
no, it excels against kanga balance but in practice it struggles to do much of anything vs any other team archetype (diancie dstorms hurt like a bitch, chary laughs at it, aegis does a shitton, etc)
No. While it does have some siq matchups here and there, it can just end up dragging momentum and be :( + it has some iffy matchups on some places too. It does have typing, good bulk, and some nifty support options, but outside of being a TR setter (which it's ok at doing), it's hard to use effectively.
No. Its a cool mon that I have used a fair bit in the past but I dont think it has the best matchup vs opposing TR which uses much more offensive setters now, as it generally just sits in draining momentum.
No. A very reliable setter that absolutely puts in work against shitty ladder Kang+Lando-T builds but struggles against other builds. Wisp is a nice feature though.
No, too many weaknesses to common Pokemon and is weak af to Volcanion
no, it excels against kanga balance but in practice it struggles to do much of anything vs any other team archetype (diancie dstorms hurt like a bitch, chary laughs at it, aegis does a shitton, etc)
No. While it does have some siq matchups here and there, it can just end up dragging momentum and be :( + it has some iffy matchups on some places too. It does have typing, good bulk, and some nifty support options, but outside of being a TR setter (which it's ok at doing), it's hard to use effectively.
No. Its a cool mon that I have used a fair bit in the past but I dont think it has the best matchup vs opposing TR which uses much more offensive setters now, as it generally just sits in draining momentum.
No. A very reliable setter that absolutely puts in work against shitty ladder Kang+Lando-T builds but struggles against other builds. Wisp is a nice feature though.
No, too many weaknesses to common Pokemon and is weak af to Volcanion
Jirachi 1.5 -> 1
"weak to spread moves xD". Jirachi is a staple of the meta, Tier 1 is representative of its ability to too often provide incredible support to common tier threats. See Diancie / Azumarill / Kangaskhan.
yes, meta defining and extremely versatile support. checks a huge portion of the common threats and pairs well with DOUs best mons. i don't buy the "amoonguss is more of a threat" argument because jirachi does enough on its own to support the team even in poor situations (iron head flinching / speed control) while a lot of the time amoonguss is relegated to sporing the goggles switchins and being sad.
Yes. We even suspected this lol. Redirection + one of the best defensive typings that let it match well with a lot of stuff + 100 / 100 / 100 bulk is :fire:. Also, in practice, faster (and thus frailer) things that try to check it often get beat down by its usually strong partner (Mega Kanga, Mega Diancie...) while slower things end up at the mercy of Iron Head a good amount of the time. :pray:
Yea. I will budge on this. Its finally made its way to being extremely easy to put on teams and the amount of support it provides to pokemon like sub volcanion, which deal with opposing fires and steels for rachi, has been absolutely outstanding from personal experience with it.
Yes. Defining presence in the metagame and quite a bit better than any other redirector at the moment. The only drawback is that its weak to spread moves, which is a big thing, but thats very, very easy to deal with if you look at the Pokemon that this thing is always next to.
Yes, this kind of Follow Me support is amazing and has a million speed control options. Flinch Head also helps
yes, meta defining and extremely versatile support. checks a huge portion of the common threats and pairs well with DOUs best mons. i don't buy the "amoonguss is more of a threat" argument because jirachi does enough on its own to support the team even in poor situations (iron head flinching / speed control) while a lot of the time amoonguss is relegated to sporing the goggles switchins and being sad.
Yes. We even suspected this lol. Redirection + one of the best defensive typings that let it match well with a lot of stuff + 100 / 100 / 100 bulk is :fire:. Also, in practice, faster (and thus frailer) things that try to check it often get beat down by its usually strong partner (Mega Kanga, Mega Diancie...) while slower things end up at the mercy of Iron Head a good amount of the time. :pray:
Yea. I will budge on this. Its finally made its way to being extremely easy to put on teams and the amount of support it provides to pokemon like sub volcanion, which deal with opposing fires and steels for rachi, has been absolutely outstanding from personal experience with it.
Yes. Defining presence in the metagame and quite a bit better than any other redirector at the moment. The only drawback is that its weak to spread moves, which is a big thing, but thats very, very easy to deal with if you look at the Pokemon that this thing is always next to.
Yes, this kind of Follow Me support is amazing and has a million speed control options. Flinch Head also helps
Crobat UR -> 4
Yes, I dont think it's better then 4, but haze bat might actually be "okish" at stopping azumarill
i havent really seen this used in a tournament so i'm going to say no but i am curious to see how it performs, it seems decent on a kang HO team.
No. I haven't seen anyone use this. It looks ok but ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
no it was a meme nom. i tried this a year ago and it was underwhelming. havent seen it used since
Abstain. Haze and an Inner Focus Tailwind could be cool but then what?
sure, tier 4 isn't really necessary imo but crobat's unique support set is pretty nifty
i havent really seen this used in a tournament so i'm going to say no but i am curious to see how it performs, it seems decent on a kang HO team.
No. I haven't seen anyone use this. It looks ok but ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
no it was a meme nom. i tried this a year ago and it was underwhelming. havent seen it used since
Abstain. Haze and an Inner Focus Tailwind could be cool but then what?
sure, tier 4 isn't really necessary imo but crobat's unique support set is pretty nifty
Bisharp 2 -> 3
No, still a massive threat to a variety of archetypes which needs to be considered.
no, considering lando's obscene usage and how bad this bends most common builds im willing to keep it in 2 even with its miniscule usage. should be used more imo, threatening as hell whenever you face it
No. Honestly, this one nom that I thought about really hard. I personally detest how it struggles to perform the usual defensive roles one usually plays with a Steel-type. I also dislike how it can be a 50/50 game against a good number of faster stuff with Sucker Punch. However, Bisharp checks a lot of stuff on its own, capable of beating a lot of builds and punishing use of Intimidate (and thus, the most common Pokemon in the meta in Landorus-T). Its ability to check TR is aceeeeee af. Bisharp also hits for strong damage and has utility to boot in Knock Off, and I'd say the threat of punishing with Sucker Punch is a positive in itself.
no this mon is still a massive threat and something that gardevoir, hoopa teams in particular need to respect. Its main goal is to break holes in the opposing teams and it is still able to do just that.
No. Bisharp is not a conventional Steel-type in that you can make full use of its quite good defensive typing. What Bisharp does is put dents in things for other things to clear up, and it does that well. You need something to be at around 55-60% HP in order to KO it reliably? Sucker Punch it. You know that opposing Pokemon is about to switch out? Knock Off and do like 70% to whatever comes in. Bisharp is awesome in that it can impose a very threatening mind game on your opponent, especially in conjunction with the likes of Charizard, Diancie, and Kangaskhan because any combination of attacks from 2 of them is enough to KO any Pokemon you throw at them, so switch isn't even a very safe option. Stop using banded Bisharp and your life will be a lot better Check. Also if anyone cares enough to read this: use Stealth Rocks with Bisharp, that shit is ace.
Agree, doesn't stay on the field long enough to benefit from it theoretical good matchups
no, considering lando's obscene usage and how bad this bends most common builds im willing to keep it in 2 even with its miniscule usage. should be used more imo, threatening as hell whenever you face it
No. Honestly, this one nom that I thought about really hard. I personally detest how it struggles to perform the usual defensive roles one usually plays with a Steel-type. I also dislike how it can be a 50/50 game against a good number of faster stuff with Sucker Punch. However, Bisharp checks a lot of stuff on its own, capable of beating a lot of builds and punishing use of Intimidate (and thus, the most common Pokemon in the meta in Landorus-T). Its ability to check TR is aceeeeee af. Bisharp also hits for strong damage and has utility to boot in Knock Off, and I'd say the threat of punishing with Sucker Punch is a positive in itself.
no this mon is still a massive threat and something that gardevoir, hoopa teams in particular need to respect. Its main goal is to break holes in the opposing teams and it is still able to do just that.
No. Bisharp is not a conventional Steel-type in that you can make full use of its quite good defensive typing. What Bisharp does is put dents in things for other things to clear up, and it does that well. You need something to be at around 55-60% HP in order to KO it reliably? Sucker Punch it. You know that opposing Pokemon is about to switch out? Knock Off and do like 70% to whatever comes in. Bisharp is awesome in that it can impose a very threatening mind game on your opponent, especially in conjunction with the likes of Charizard, Diancie, and Kangaskhan because any combination of attacks from 2 of them is enough to KO any Pokemon you throw at them, so switch isn't even a very safe option. Stop using banded Bisharp and your life will be a lot better Check. Also if anyone cares enough to read this: use Stealth Rocks with Bisharp, that shit is ace.
Agree, doesn't stay on the field long enough to benefit from it theoretical good matchups
Cresselia 3 -> 4
No, offers the most consistent trick room/ mixed mode support available. Incredibly unexplored in doubles ou compared to similar metagames.
best defensive tr setter and the cm set is good as usual. swagger cress the aegislash counter is god tier. i would rather see this raised
No lol. Cresselia's still one of the bulkiest mofos in the metagame and still has a lot of usable support moves, including main speed control options Thunder Wave and Trick Room. No matter how much Checkmater says ">CM Cress in 2016," that set's still good too and still as dangerous as ever with people sleeping on it again.
no. its not that bad. Calm Mind Cress is still a pretty good win con that your opponent is forced to respect. Just stop setting up Turn 1 please.
No. I'd rather bump this up but I think the biggest issue with the perception of Cresselia is people expecting it to do things it is not designed for.
No, if anything should be moving up. CM Cress is a premier threat right now and should be treated as such
best defensive tr setter and the cm set is good as usual. swagger cress the aegislash counter is god tier. i would rather see this raised
No lol. Cresselia's still one of the bulkiest mofos in the metagame and still has a lot of usable support moves, including main speed control options Thunder Wave and Trick Room. No matter how much Checkmater says ">CM Cress in 2016," that set's still good too and still as dangerous as ever with people sleeping on it again.
no. its not that bad. Calm Mind Cress is still a pretty good win con that your opponent is forced to respect. Just stop setting up Turn 1 please.
No. I'd rather bump this up but I think the biggest issue with the perception of Cresselia is people expecting it to do things it is not designed for.
No, if anything should be moving up. CM Cress is a premier threat right now and should be treated as such
Mega Aero 3 -> 4
Yes, is a terrible waste of a megastone
i stand by the initial raise of aero but the metagame has become a lot less hyper offensive and aero has lost its niche. drop
Yes. It's underwhelming lol. Its attacks are just 2weak4me and usually other Megas are better. It does have some uses though! Wide Guard and Sky Drop can be nifty at times.
Abstain
Yes. If you want something to tear apart HO, this is your ideal Pokemon. If you want something which fails to be consistent against everything else, this is also your ideal Pokemon
abstain
i stand by the initial raise of aero but the metagame has become a lot less hyper offensive and aero has lost its niche. drop
Yes. It's underwhelming lol. Its attacks are just 2weak4me and usually other Megas are better. It does have some uses though! Wide Guard and Sky Drop can be nifty at times.
Abstain
Yes. If you want something to tear apart HO, this is your ideal Pokemon. If you want something which fails to be consistent against everything else, this is also your ideal Pokemon
abstain
Genesect 3 -> 4
No, "Pokemon that can only serve a specific role not needed by most teams, but can still perform excellently."
unique scarfer that finds its place as the best option on a lot of faster teams. its not splashable but its not garbage and it checks diancie / mega gard! boom best set
No. It's not really garb, it can check a lot of stuff decently enough. Being a Steel that doesn't resist Rock holds it back, though, as that means it's a Steel that can't go toe-to-toe against Mega Diancie due to not being able to take a DStorm.
Yea. No competitive usage and fire types are just so good at the moment and make this cry
No, "Pokemon that can only serve a specific role not needed by most teams, but can still perform excellently."
No, has just enough good matchups to warrant being Tier 3
unique scarfer that finds its place as the best option on a lot of faster teams. its not splashable but its not garbage and it checks diancie / mega gard! boom best set
No. It's not really garb, it can check a lot of stuff decently enough. Being a Steel that doesn't resist Rock holds it back, though, as that means it's a Steel that can't go toe-to-toe against Mega Diancie due to not being able to take a DStorm.
Yea. No competitive usage and fire types are just so good at the moment and make this cry
No, "Pokemon that can only serve a specific role not needed by most teams, but can still perform excellently."
No, has just enough good matchups to warrant being Tier 3
Virizion 3 -> 4
No, "Pokemon that can only serve a specific role not needed by most teams, but can still perform excellently."
abstain
Yes. This thing hits like shit lol; I'd even rather use Serperior because at least that can be threatening (eventually).
Yea. This mon used to be passable but with TR and genies Volcanion teams ever present it doesnt do what it needs to that effectively anymore.
Yes. Kinda cool how it can OHKO all of Kangaskhan, Charizard, and Heatran in one go whilst also ignoring Rage Powder and Spore. If it got a better Grass-stab it would be vastly improved but sadly it doesn't.
Yes, way too linear and loses to so many common Pokemon
abstain
Yes. This thing hits like shit lol; I'd even rather use Serperior because at least that can be threatening (eventually).
Yea. This mon used to be passable but with TR and genies Volcanion teams ever present it doesnt do what it needs to that effectively anymore.
Yes. Kinda cool how it can OHKO all of Kangaskhan, Charizard, and Heatran in one go whilst also ignoring Rage Powder and Spore. If it got a better Grass-stab it would be vastly improved but sadly it doesn't.
Yes, way too linear and loses to so many common Pokemon
Kyurem-B 1.5 -> 2
No, Whilst people have argued gardevoir has risen, so has non scarf landorus!, Incredible still with aegislash (Which is positive vs gardevoir)
sub kyube + aegis = free wins vs slower teams, scarf is still solid, probably worse than hydrei but still good enough for tier 1.5
No. lol. This thing can still demolish teams on its own thanks to its stellar SE coverage; it can own common Kangaskaskhan builds and such. Scarf's still solid, too, as it's capable of picking off a good number of threats and whathaveyou, including Scarf Lando-T
Nah this is still pretty good vs a lot of balance teams and all the kang genies spammers running around. Fast Sub and Life Orb KyuB's are still good but scarf is still underwhelming as hell
No. Stop only using Substitute or Choice Scarf sets and explore the wonderful world of Expert Belt / Life Orb sets.
Yes, gets highly neutered by paralysis and is really linear. Also really weak to Gardevoir even with sub
sub kyube + aegis = free wins vs slower teams, scarf is still solid, probably worse than hydrei but still good enough for tier 1.5
No. lol. This thing can still demolish teams on its own thanks to its stellar SE coverage; it can own common Kangaskaskhan builds and such. Scarf's still solid, too, as it's capable of picking off a good number of threats and whathaveyou, including Scarf Lando-T
Nah this is still pretty good vs a lot of balance teams and all the kang genies spammers running around. Fast Sub and Life Orb KyuB's are still good but scarf is still underwhelming as hell
No. Stop only using Substitute or Choice Scarf sets and explore the wonderful world of Expert Belt / Life Orb sets.
Yes, gets highly neutered by paralysis and is really linear. Also really weak to Gardevoir even with sub
Hoopa-U 1.5 -> 1
No, whilst I'm an advocate of Hoopa play, the support it requires to actually be used to its full potential is too large to be considered Tier 1.
no, threatening as hell but requires a ton of support + non lo sets can be a bit underwhelming if the opposing side saves intimidate for it. also kangaskhan exists :<
No. While it is REALLY threatening, it just needs a lot of support to be effective. It's also a bit easy to pick off with physical stuff such as Mega Kangaskhan and Landorus-T. The Non-LO sets are also much more easy to play around, like qsns said.
Nah. qsns summed up my general thoughts on it. Also because of its flaws its generally not as easy to slap on a team compared to most tier 1 pokemon
No. Needs a lot of support, which others have said, and if you want to really make use of its amazing offensive presence you need to forego Goggles meaning there is an exploitable weakness either way.
No, it dies to U-Turn
no, threatening as hell but requires a ton of support + non lo sets can be a bit underwhelming if the opposing side saves intimidate for it. also kangaskhan exists :<
No. While it is REALLY threatening, it just needs a lot of support to be effective. It's also a bit easy to pick off with physical stuff such as Mega Kangaskhan and Landorus-T. The Non-LO sets are also much more easy to play around, like qsns said.
Nah. qsns summed up my general thoughts on it. Also because of its flaws its generally not as easy to slap on a team compared to most tier 1 pokemon
No. Needs a lot of support, which others have said, and if you want to really make use of its amazing offensive presence you need to forego Goggles meaning there is an exploitable weakness either way.
No, it dies to U-Turn
Mega Diancie 1 -> 1.5
Abstain. I'm not sure either way, with a Jirachi ban, leaning towards no would have been simple, but with jirachi being such a huge deal, it's hard to lean one way or the other.
have been debating it myself for a while but i think its a no, its still incredibly threatening and considering a lot of teams are running scarf lando + slow mons for teams its easy to wear them down for a late game diancie clean.
No. Easy decision for me, Mega Diancie checks a ton of stuff in the metagame and is still quite powerful. That much offensive potential with one of the faster Speeds in the tier is :pray: :100: :ok_hand:. It itself matches up well with a lot in the metagame, including Heatran, Volcanion, YZard, Talonflame, Mega Kangaskhan... and the general damage it can spread around opposing teams is ace.
No. This mon is still pretty scary and kang genies teams struggle with it. Its not able to beat semi-room builds the way it used to but the way it dispatches all the fire types in the TR is something very few pokemon can do.
No. Still a big threat, we just need to rethink the way we build around this Pokemon because as the metagame evolved our perception of how to build Diancie hasn't.
Yes, too weak to Jirachi + Azumarill and genies to be Top Tier. Random teched steel moves also make it really sad
have been debating it myself for a while but i think its a no, its still incredibly threatening and considering a lot of teams are running scarf lando + slow mons for teams its easy to wear them down for a late game diancie clean.
No. Easy decision for me, Mega Diancie checks a ton of stuff in the metagame and is still quite powerful. That much offensive potential with one of the faster Speeds in the tier is :pray: :100: :ok_hand:. It itself matches up well with a lot in the metagame, including Heatran, Volcanion, YZard, Talonflame, Mega Kangaskhan... and the general damage it can spread around opposing teams is ace.
No. This mon is still pretty scary and kang genies teams struggle with it. Its not able to beat semi-room builds the way it used to but the way it dispatches all the fire types in the TR is something very few pokemon can do.
No. Still a big threat, we just need to rethink the way we build around this Pokemon because as the metagame evolved our perception of how to build Diancie hasn't.
Yes, too weak to Jirachi + Azumarill and genies to be Top Tier. Random teched steel moves also make it really sad
Volcanion 1.5 -> 1
Yes, Jirachi Azumarill is the metagame. Volcanion is one of a very limited amount of mons to matchup positively.
yes, i think its worse than heatran fwiw but still definitely good enough to move up. decent to positive matchup vs almost everything thanks to its insane bulk and SpA and one of the few hard azu rachi/amoong checks.
Yes. It's a really bulky fucker that matches up well with a ton of stuff in the metagame, very similar to Heatran in effectiveness. Both Safety Goggles 3 Attacks and Substitute sets are :fire:. Its matchup against Azumarill + redirector is notable due to it being one of the good few to be able to come out of that positive.
Yea this mon is actually super good at the moment. The substitute set in particular is absurdly scary and highly underrated.
Yes. I disagree with the idea that it is a "good" check to Azumarill + Redirection, even if you use the Sludge Bomb set, but with every other aspect of this Pokemon considered it is a defining presence in the metagame.
No, good Pokemon but has to compete with Heatran for a team slot too much
yes, i think its worse than heatran fwiw but still definitely good enough to move up. decent to positive matchup vs almost everything thanks to its insane bulk and SpA and one of the few hard azu rachi/amoong checks.
Yes. It's a really bulky fucker that matches up well with a ton of stuff in the metagame, very similar to Heatran in effectiveness. Both Safety Goggles 3 Attacks and Substitute sets are :fire:. Its matchup against Azumarill + redirector is notable due to it being one of the good few to be able to come out of that positive.
Yea this mon is actually super good at the moment. The substitute set in particular is absurdly scary and highly underrated.
Yes. I disagree with the idea that it is a "good" check to Azumarill + Redirection, even if you use the Sludge Bomb set, but with every other aspect of this Pokemon considered it is a defining presence in the metagame.
No, good Pokemon but has to compete with Heatran for a team slot too much
Suicune 2 -> 3
Abstain. I haven't seen enough relevant Suicune play to have an informed opinion.
tailwind is overrated and suicune is passive. please drop
Yes. Tailwind's the only real reason for anyone to use this as outside of it, it's just a momentum stop and is quite passive. If you ain't using Tailwind, you're not using this; it's quite good at actually setting TW up, but after that it just gets lost.
Abstain
Yes. Tailwind and Snarl aren't enough to keep Suicune in 2, though I do think offensive Suicune is really underrated as an option.
Yes, Snarl and Tailwind aren't enough anymore and is reliant on getting scald burns to beat common physical attackers
tailwind is overrated and suicune is passive. please drop
Yes. Tailwind's the only real reason for anyone to use this as outside of it, it's just a momentum stop and is quite passive. If you ain't using Tailwind, you're not using this; it's quite good at actually setting TW up, but after that it just gets lost.
Abstain
Yes. Tailwind and Snarl aren't enough to keep Suicune in 2, though I do think offensive Suicune is really underrated as an option.
Yes, Snarl and Tailwind aren't enough anymore and is reliant on getting scald burns to beat common physical attackers
Mega Abomasnow 3 -> 4
Yes, is a terrible waste of a megastone
kyurem-b is better in like every way and doesn't use up mega slot! please use that instead
Yes. I nominated this.
Abstain
Yes. Though I did build with it recently and its a very fun Pokemon to use. If you ever want to do a ladder run on Hard-mode, bring this Pokemon.
Yes, outside of MajorBowman I don't see anyone using it, has a lot of good matchups in theory but is so reliant on teammates to beat common threats
kyurem-b is better in like every way and doesn't use up mega slot! please use that instead
Yes. I nominated this.
Abstain
Yes. Though I did build with it recently and its a very fun Pokemon to use. If you ever want to do a ladder run on Hard-mode, bring this Pokemon.
Yes, outside of MajorBowman I don't see anyone using it, has a lot of good matchups in theory but is so reliant on teammates to beat common threats
Gyarados 3 -> 2
Yes, whilst I haven't seen much play similar to the case of Suicune, it is clear that Gyarados has the tools to be really really good.
no, waterfall is too weak for a dd set to be threatening, cb is a good set but its too slow, and the support set is a worse thundurus. the mon as a whole suffers from huge thundurus usage in tours as while as non safety goggles sets being annoyed by the ever present amoong.
Yes. I nominated this.
Abstain
Yes. The old support sets are outdated, but offensive DD or Banded / LO sets are quite threatening with only a little bit of support needed.
Yes, has a ton of cool sets and Intimidate is really valuable
no, waterfall is too weak for a dd set to be threatening, cb is a good set but its too slow, and the support set is a worse thundurus. the mon as a whole suffers from huge thundurus usage in tours as while as non safety goggles sets being annoyed by the ever present amoong.
Yes. I nominated this.
Abstain
Yes. The old support sets are outdated, but offensive DD or Banded / LO sets are quite threatening with only a little bit of support needed.
Yes, has a ton of cool sets and Intimidate is really valuable
Mega Metagross 2 -> 3
Yes, is a waste of a megastone, compared to other steel types
yes, why are you not using tran/aegis/jirachi :<
No. While it does have somewhat of an iffy standing due to other Steels, I don't think they're much of a factor. Mega Metagross does have a bad-ish matchup against stuff like Jirachi, Aegislash, and other Steels, but it's not necessarily competing against them for slot. This is because Mega Metagross is something that is built / one should be building around as a starting point of a team, thus not competing with anything for a specific criteria other than "the builder likes this." Mega Metagross is solid for me in that it's a wincon that can also reliable function as a pivot, giving teams more options when it comes to defensive play. As an attacker, it's still quite solid, it even having a lot of options (HArm, BP, Ice Punch, Sub) for its third move slot. Again, Mega Metagross does have an iffy mu against other steels, but those aren't exactly hard to deal with in particular. In addition, tts matchup against Fires and Lando-T is more situation-related but is still something to think about. Mega Metagross has its flaws, sure, but it sure ain't T3 (imo) due to still being a capable attacker.
Yea. This is kind of painful for me to do since it was on one of my best DOU teams at the time during pre-Volcanion meta. But with too many fires running around now as well as Jirachi making it effectively useless in multiple scenarios, it just doesnt live up to its former glory.
Yes. This thing sucks.
Yes, has sooo many bad matchups and competition as a steel type
yes, why are you not using tran/aegis/jirachi :<
No. While it does have somewhat of an iffy standing due to other Steels, I don't think they're much of a factor. Mega Metagross does have a bad-ish matchup against stuff like Jirachi, Aegislash, and other Steels, but it's not necessarily competing against them for slot. This is because Mega Metagross is something that is built / one should be building around as a starting point of a team, thus not competing with anything for a specific criteria other than "the builder likes this." Mega Metagross is solid for me in that it's a wincon that can also reliable function as a pivot, giving teams more options when it comes to defensive play. As an attacker, it's still quite solid, it even having a lot of options (HArm, BP, Ice Punch, Sub) for its third move slot. Again, Mega Metagross does have an iffy mu against other steels, but those aren't exactly hard to deal with in particular. In addition, tts matchup against Fires and Lando-T is more situation-related but is still something to think about. Mega Metagross has its flaws, sure, but it sure ain't T3 (imo) due to still being a capable attacker.
Yea. This is kind of painful for me to do since it was on one of my best DOU teams at the time during pre-Volcanion meta. But with too many fires running around now as well as Jirachi making it effectively useless in multiple scenarios, it just doesnt live up to its former glory.
Yes. This thing sucks.
Yes, has sooo many bad matchups and competition as a steel type
Final Changes:
Breloom moves from Tier 2 to 3
Jirachi moves from Tier 1.5 to 1
Mega Aero moves from Tier 3 to 4
Virizion moves from Tier 3 to 4
Volcanion moves from Tier 1.5 to 1
Suicune moves from Tier 2 to 3
Mega Abomasnow moves from Tier 3 to 4
Gyarados moves from Tier 3 to 2
Mega Metagross moves from Tier 2 to 3
This is one that probably needs to happen eventually: Azumarill -> 1
I think Azumarill is one of the metagame defining threats right now. With its decent bulk there are ample opportunities in a match for it to take less than 75% damage in one turn (especially with two tier 1 redirectors), which is all it needs to raise it's attack to an effective stat of 1744. 1744 in one turn! If that wasn't enough, it also doesn't care about speed control thanks to Aqua Jet being in a higher priority bracket, which means it can be in pretty much any team centered around speed control, be effective against teams centered around speed control, and in general fit in any team that isn't sun. The best way to consistently deal with Azu without taking too much damage is to constantly apply pressure large enough to not give it an opportunity to smack its belly, which is a tall order for many teams.
I think Azumarill is one of the metagame defining threats right now. With its decent bulk there are ample opportunities in a match for it to take less than 75% damage in one turn (especially with two tier 1 redirectors), which is all it needs to raise it's attack to an effective stat of 1744. 1744 in one turn! If that wasn't enough, it also doesn't care about speed control thanks to Aqua Jet being in a higher priority bracket, which means it can be in pretty much any team centered around speed control, be effective against teams centered around speed control, and in general fit in any team that isn't sun. The best way to consistently deal with Azu without taking too much damage is to constantly apply pressure large enough to not give it an opportunity to smack its belly, which is a tall order for many teams.
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goddamnit I was going to nom Azumarill to 1....
even though I was sniped, I still want to add my thoughts
Pokemon in Tier 1 define the metagame, and right now, the most popular team in the metagame is built around sweeping with Belly Drum Azumarill. Lets take a look at it.
Now there are two verisons of this team, miltankmilk 's / talkingtree 's and KyleCole 's. miltankmilk/talkingtree's can be found here and KyleCole's can be found here. Both teams have been used in ssnl, open, and laddering during DLT. KyleCole used the team to climb to #1 on the ladder while miltankmilk/talkingtree's was featured in one of The Smog's article.
Beside Azumarill, every other member is part of Tier 1. Azumaril is the only one that isn't, and the team is focused around it. Many other teams revolve around Azumarill and it's what the metagame is build around. What's a major reason why Mega Metagross isn't good anymore? It's because it gives Azumarill free set up, especially when paired with Jirachi. Theres no way you can say Talonflame is more metagame defining than Azumarill.
Azumarill to Tier 1
even though I was sniped, I still want to add my thoughts
Pokemon in Tier 1 define the metagame, and right now, the most popular team in the metagame is built around sweeping with Belly Drum Azumarill. Lets take a look at it.
Now there are two verisons of this team, miltankmilk 's / talkingtree 's and KyleCole 's. miltankmilk/talkingtree's can be found here and KyleCole's can be found here. Both teams have been used in ssnl, open, and laddering during DLT. KyleCole used the team to climb to #1 on the ladder while miltankmilk/talkingtree's was featured in one of The Smog's article.
Beside Azumarill, every other member is part of Tier 1. Azumaril is the only one that isn't, and the team is focused around it. Many other teams revolve around Azumarill and it's what the metagame is build around. What's a major reason why Mega Metagross isn't good anymore? It's because it gives Azumarill free set up, especially when paired with Jirachi. Theres no way you can say Talonflame is more metagame defining than Azumarill.
Azumarill to Tier 1
there's probably plenty of reasons azu should be tier 1 but the existence of that team and its variations is definitely not 1 of em because thund / kang / lando / redirector / hot new bulky fire-type + 1 is like the most basic team composition ever and has existed since like forever. and i question the claim that those teams are /focused/ around azu because ya' know everything before this sentence and like... you'd be lying to yourself if u claimed there was any deep thought put into building them cuz everyone and their moms been building that shit with heatran > volcanion since 2013 and not once did they lie about azu being anything other than easy setup or a bailout for when shit hit the fan
I built the team and like there wasnt really some deep thought going into it, just Tree asked me to put a team in the article that Azu has a big role and is supported nicely. I agree with Shay here, team is really standard and IMO the reason Azu should be moving to tier 1 is because it fits on teams other than something as basic as this. It really only needs a little bit of support (Fake Out/Redirection/Speed Control) and its gonna have a nice time.
Unlike all those other mons you mentioned. They don't require set up for effectiveness.
If azu fails to get a BD then it's trash. And good players have knowledge of how to prevent BD from setting up and how to deal with it once it is set up.
If azu fails to get a BD then it's trash. And good players have knowledge of how to prevent BD from setting up and how to deal with it once it is set up.
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ok so maybe I was wrong....
the point with the team was to show how common Azumarill was and how its a big part of a popular and effective team that has seen success, but I see what you're saying with how it's not a reason why Azumarill should be tier 1.
however I disagree with n1n1
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/doublesou-415329642 - heres Azumarill getting off a Belly Drum and cleaning up the game in playoffs of DLT
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/doublesou-409432900 - heres people going to Haze Volcanion in order to beat BD Azumarill
While I might of been wrong, Azumarill is still more metagame defining than Talonflame
Edit: "Jirachi Azumarill is the metagame." - Dawg on his decision on Volcanion from 1.5 - 1
Azumarill to Tier 1 :D
the point with the team was to show how common Azumarill was and how its a big part of a popular and effective team that has seen success, but I see what you're saying with how it's not a reason why Azumarill should be tier 1.
however I disagree with n1n1
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/doublesou-369930335 - heres Azumarill getting off a Belly Drum and cleaning up the game vs. #1 on the power rankings
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/doublesou-415329642 - heres Azumarill getting off a Belly Drum and cleaning up the game in playoffs of DLT
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/doublesou-409432900 - heres people going to Haze Volcanion in order to beat BD Azumarill
DragonWhale set it best here, it's very hard to stop Azumarill from BDing, even good players (has shown in the replays) have trouble doing it.
While I might of been wrong, Azumarill is still more metagame defining than Talonflame
Edit: "Jirachi Azumarill is the metagame." - Dawg on his decision on Volcanion from 1.5 - 1
Azumarill to Tier 1 :D
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Azu is fine in 1.5, needs BD and doesn't have a place in a lot of teams but is very strong on the ones it's on.
Other thoughts from recent experiences:
Mew should go up a tier, theoretically should be higher that just one extra tier because of its ridiculous utility but proof-wise I think one tier is fine to move it up.
Volcarona is right where it belongs.
ZardY down a tier. Not as flexible team comp-wise as the other megas in the tier and does not do as much as those megas either. Naturally checked by far too many things up high on the list.
Latios down a tier. Too much of a glass cannon and can be outclassed by Deoxys on more teams than its ranking indicates.
Porygon2 maybe up a tier. It's pretty scary for teams that don't carry heavy taunt pressure or Amoonguss.
List looks pr solid overall though, keeps getting more reasonable as time goes on.
Other thoughts from recent experiences:
Mew should go up a tier, theoretically should be higher that just one extra tier because of its ridiculous utility but proof-wise I think one tier is fine to move it up.
Volcarona is right where it belongs.
ZardY down a tier. Not as flexible team comp-wise as the other megas in the tier and does not do as much as those megas either. Naturally checked by far too many things up high on the list.
Latios down a tier. Too much of a glass cannon and can be outclassed by Deoxys on more teams than its ranking indicates.
Porygon2 maybe up a tier. It's pretty scary for teams that don't carry heavy taunt pressure or Amoonguss.
List looks pr solid overall though, keeps getting more reasonable as time goes on.
sam-testings
What a beautiful face, I have found in this place
Deoxys A up a tier. When used properly it pretty much ensures a kill every match. It has really good matchup against offensive teams and can one shot a lot of pokemon with its insane speed. Its a good mon that should really be used more
Suicune down a tier. The more I use it the more I realise how bad it is. Its super passive and almost never ends up doing anything in game. it sucks.
Infernape down a tier. I really dont know why it is where it is right now :/
Suicune down a tier. The more I use it the more I realise how bad it is. Its super passive and almost never ends up doing anything in game. it sucks.
Infernape down a tier. I really dont know why it is where it is right now :/
Tried to be short and to the point but there's a lot so strap in
Disagreeing with Talon->1.5
I had reasoning typed out and then it got deleted so basically all the nice wording's gone but I guess bullets will make this fast
Braverius puts it better than I ever could but I'd add that you HAVE to have support for this thing, you can't just slap it onto a team and make it work, at least gotta have either redirection or fake out, haven't seen any successful teams without at least one (usually both) of these
Also there are plenty of games where Azu sets up and then just dies becacuse someone predicts well or makes the right play - or you know, has water resists? - and Azu can't do anything.
GreenGogoatt I feel like you're trying to make a point but falling short, and feel like your reasoning as it is appears flawed. Why does it matter what you think a team is focused around? If anything having to have 5 members "focused around Azu" (or however you put it, that was a paraphrase) makes it more evident that Azu NEEDS support.
Also while I'm at it don't really think Zard should go down a tier because DPL proved how incredible Zard semiroom is. Just don't run Venu and it's a solid tier 1 imo.
I wrote a really angry paragraph about how stupid it was that Bisharp didn't move down but I deleted it because I'm a bitch and I don't want to get infracted. Pretty much: if you think Bisharp benefits from more landot usage and landot has been going up like hell where are all the Bisharp teams? Why does it get miniscule usage? Why isn't it flourishing in the current meta, or at least getting SOME kind of usage? Nobody has used this recently to sucess, it's garbage tier, if you want to keep it in tier 2 on theory alone that's ridiculous. I'm willing to go further into this if you think I've misinterpreted your reasonings or am using flawed logic. God bless Sam for seeing the light.
Diancie->3
Amazing TR setter, people usually run at most 1(?) rock resist, me and yoda are cumulative 8-4 in tours and we both got haxed to shit a lot while STILL winning (yes, I literally looked through every recent doubles replay of both of us and did a tally). Deserves 3 at least, I'd argue 2 because it's just so spectacular as a semiroom setter and as a fullroom setter.
Avoiding Intimidate is amazing for TR sweepers. Its spread physical rock coverage does big damage and at least 2hkos every single neutral hit.
Scrafty->1.5
Incredibly versatile, see it everywhere, amazing Kang check and murders Heatran. Fits on semi and full. Pretty much the second best Fake Out in the tier besides Kangaskhan, VR should reflect that.
Yeah sure Garde's popular but Scrafty benefits from Garde being popular cuz it works very well with Garde, so lots of Garde+Scrafty teams. Other than that the only thing it "runs away from" would be Azu + Fake Out (in which you trade fo) or Keldeo.
Disagreeing with Cress->2
I think this is ridiculous. You can run whatever meme set people use to justifystupid nom decisions (swagger cress lmao what the fuck) but it doesn't really matter if you're Stratos trying to hype oTR Cress with EBelt or Qsns trying to say 12 different sets make Cress godly, one for each month, or Arcticblast trying to use scarf lunar dance you're never going to be able to deny that this thing is such a huge momentum drain against Steels (and a more concerning threat, Azumarill) and the 15 other checks that Stratos listed out in his thread. Provides 0 meaningful resists (besides walling non-knock Deo) and does 0 for damage. Saying that the flaw in my reasoning is "trying to use the set for what it isn't designed for" isn't really accurate, I'm not saying that Cress SHOULD be able to do these things, I am pointing out that the fact that it cannot do what any other mon in the meta can in some form holds Cresselia back to an extreme degree.
Disagreeing with Talon->1.5
I had reasoning typed out and then it got deleted so basically all the nice wording's gone but I guess bullets will make this fast
- fastest, most powerful priority attack with the best offensive coverage typing in the game
- probably the only reason some part of Jirachi+Azu isn't banworthy atm
- incredibly versatile: "You can't go wrong using this mon" applies especially. It fits on fullroom, semi, full offense, etc
- Most popular fire with Diancie, for good reason
Most popularonly fire type on rain, for good reason- Way better rain mu compared to Heatran
- Usually somewhere like #3-7 on usage %
- Always does something every match
Braverius puts it better than I ever could but I'd add that you HAVE to have support for this thing, you can't just slap it onto a team and make it work, at least gotta have either redirection or fake out, haven't seen any successful teams without at least one (usually both) of these
Also there are plenty of games where Azu sets up and then just dies becacuse someone predicts well or makes the right play - or you know, has water resists? - and Azu can't do anything.
GreenGogoatt I feel like you're trying to make a point but falling short, and feel like your reasoning as it is appears flawed. Why does it matter what you think a team is focused around? If anything having to have 5 members "focused around Azu" (or however you put it, that was a paraphrase) makes it more evident that Azu NEEDS support.
Also while I'm at it don't really think Zard should go down a tier because DPL proved how incredible Zard semiroom is. Just don't run Venu and it's a solid tier 1 imo.
I wrote a really angry paragraph about how stupid it was that Bisharp didn't move down but I deleted it because I'm a bitch and I don't want to get infracted. Pretty much: if you think Bisharp benefits from more landot usage and landot has been going up like hell where are all the Bisharp teams? Why does it get miniscule usage? Why isn't it flourishing in the current meta, or at least getting SOME kind of usage? Nobody has used this recently to sucess, it's garbage tier, if you want to keep it in tier 2 on theory alone that's ridiculous. I'm willing to go further into this if you think I've misinterpreted your reasonings or am using flawed logic. God bless Sam for seeing the light.
Diancie->3
Amazing TR setter, people usually run at most 1(?) rock resist, me and yoda are cumulative 8-4 in tours and we both got haxed to shit a lot while STILL winning (yes, I literally looked through every recent doubles replay of both of us and did a tally). Deserves 3 at least, I'd argue 2 because it's just so spectacular as a semiroom setter and as a fullroom setter.
Avoiding Intimidate is amazing for TR sweepers. Its spread physical rock coverage does big damage and at least 2hkos every single neutral hit.
Scrafty->1.5
Incredibly versatile, see it everywhere, amazing Kang check and murders Heatran. Fits on semi and full. Pretty much the second best Fake Out in the tier besides Kangaskhan, VR should reflect that.
Yeah sure Garde's popular but Scrafty benefits from Garde being popular cuz it works very well with Garde, so lots of Garde+Scrafty teams. Other than that the only thing it "runs away from" would be Azu + Fake Out (in which you trade fo) or Keldeo.
Disagreeing with Cress->2
I think this is ridiculous. You can run whatever meme set people use to justify
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hi check I think you should drop your numbers from your name too. imo
but besides that
I think a lot of people misinterpreted what I was trying to say which is to be expected as I'm not that intelligent
The point of showing off the team was to show that Azumarill defines the metagame, which imo, describes Tier 1. However, like I said with my last post, I see what you're saying on how it's not a good reason why Azumarill should be Tier 1.
however
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-doublesou-135640
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-doublesou-138372
but besides that
I think a lot of people misinterpreted what I was trying to say which is to be expected as I'm not that intelligent
The point of showing off the team was to show that Azumarill defines the metagame, which imo, describes Tier 1. However, like I said with my last post, I see what you're saying on how it's not a good reason why Azumarill should be Tier 1.
however
I think Pocket and Sam said it best, a team doesn't have to be built around Azumarill for it to be effective. Here are some examples from SPL.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-doublesou-135640
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-doublesou-138372
both of those teams feature both Fake Out and redirection
Alright I took my first good look through these rankings and have a few thoughts. I'm not sure what the rules are for how often a pokemon can be voted on and they don't seem to be listed anywhere so if I talk about something ineligible for a vote then feel free to ignore it.
So yeah those are my thoughts. I think a lot of the stuff in tier 4 doesn't really deserved to be called viable but that's probably a lot of opinion and would depend on the definition of viable so I won't go into that for now.
OH bisharp. bisharp is terrible drop it to 3. pretty much agree with what check just said.
Talonflame: 1 -> 1.5
Talonflame is only good for 2 things: guaranteed tailwind and strong priority. If you don't need either of those things then it's actually pretty bad. It rarely attacks more than twice in a game, and even when it does it's not entirely strong unless it's hitting super effectively. If you look at everything else in Tier 1, there are really just 2 things (Amoonguss and Jirachi) that it outright beats. The others are either damage trades (usually not in Talonflame's favor) or objectively poor matchups. While the priority Brave Bird and Tailwind are obviously great, but after that Talonflame's utility nose dives and I really don't think it's fit to be called a top tier pokemon.
Volcanion: 1 -> 1.5
I feel like I'm in the minority here, but I really don't think Volcanion is that good. I think it's respectable, but it competes hardcore with Heatran for a slot. When I compare Heatran and Volcanion, the only reasons I can see to run Volcanion are to not die to Azumarill Aqua Jet (even though it still dies to Knock Off/Return) and a slightly less bad matchup vs Landorus even though it still mostly loses to Landorus. Its stats aren't amazing and its typing gives it a lot of weaknesses to common types.
Azumarill: 1.5 -> 1
This thing is pretty much threat #1 in this metagame, and I'm really surprised it isn't in tier 1. It has the potential to OHKO every Pokemon in tier 1 after a Belly Drum and it's stupid easy to support with stuff like Jirachi + Fake Out. If you can stop Belly Drum it's obviously less threatening, but so far stopping Belly Drum isn't something players in this tier have mastered, myself included. Just looking at the description of Tier 1.5, Azumarill is almost never deadweight, has positive matchups vs a lot of Tier 1, and isn't specifically used to check one team style.
Gengar: 1.5 -> 2
Gengar is one of those pokemon that does 1 thing and only 1 thing well, and that's check Kangaskhan...except it really isn't even great at doing that. It gets completely shut down by Thundurus or any other Taunt/priority user, and it's very very easy to eliminate due to its insane frailty. I'm not as passionate about this one since I guess it can technically beat stuff like Gardevoir or Aegislash under the right conditions, but I personally think 1.5 is a bit too high for Gengar.
Hoopa-U: 1.5 -> 1
This thing is crazy strong. It can run a variety of sets (Goggles TR, Life Orb TR, Sash TR, Scarf, fast Life Orb) very well, and both of its attacking stats are insanely high. The one thing holding it back (and in my opinion keeping it from reaching broken level) is its pretty poor defense. Even so, it's not too hard to get Hoopa into positions where it can start wailing away. Its complete dominance of Aegislash is pretty noteworthy, as nothing else beats it that comprehensively. Not to mention the fact that you can't protect against its two most common attacks. I think this thing is definitely a candidate for tier 1.
Latios: 1.5 -> 2
I'm trying to come up with an actual reason for this one other than "I just don't think it's that good" but it's hard. You can make the argument that it's one of the best Tailwind setters in the tier and that Life Orb Draco Meteor is some pretty solid neutral damage. It can also KO Kyurem and Hydreigon before they attack and that's good. I just take issue with it's frailty and generally bad matchup vs a lot of the Tier 1 Pokemon, but I guess that's why it was already in 1.5. So nevermind, I guess I like Latios where it is. But I'm leaving this paragraph in the post because dammit I worked hard on it!
Charizard X: 2 -> 3
As much as I love this thing, it's pretty bad. The only teams I've seen it do well on are my stupid Bunnies team and KyleCole's exploding pumpkin team. It struggles against pretty much every popular pokemon, and its damage output isn't fantastic even if it does manage to get a Dragon Dance up uninterrupted.
Ludicolo: 2 -> 3
I honestly see very little reason to use Ludicolo over Kingdra in this tier. Kingdra's damage output is so much greater than Ludicolo's, especially if you're using the standard AV Ludicolo. Life Orb Ludi's damage is bit more respectable but then it dies to a slight breeze passing by. Plus Kingdra has better support options than Ludi. I just don't think these two deserve to be in the same tier at all, and Kingdra certainly shouldn't move up.
Cresselia: 3 -> 2
Ok honestly y'all are crazy if you think Cresselia deserves to be in the same tier as Reuniclus or Blaziken. Cresselia is EASILY the best defensive Pokemon in the metagame, and it can turn itself into an offensive threat with its Calm Mind sets. It's so surprising to me that Cresselia isn't more popular. It has so so so many support options that can be valuable to any team. I'd probably argue to move Cresselia into 1.5 but I suppose we should take it one step at a time.
Zapdos: 3 -> 2
Zapdos is basically Thundurus without Prankster and with more bulk and more moves. When comparing the two I would agree that Thundurus is clearly better, but Zapdos is still a great alternative if the team would benefit more from Tailwind than Thunder Wave. Zapdos also checks Kangaskhan and Landorus better than Thundurus can with Static and Roost, and access to Heat Wave can be valuable as well. Not that I'd consider this set good, but the surprise Scarf set has proven somewhat effective whenever I've used it, so it has that facet to it as well.
Mega Abomasnow: 4 -> 3
Mega Abomasnow actually has a decent matchup against a lot of the top Pokemon, most notably genies and Azumarill. I don't think it should be any higher than 3 because its checks are pretty common, but it has a pretty strong 100% accurate spread move in Blizzard, which isn't something to scoff at. If you support it well enough and get it into Trick Room, it can be a pretty strong threat.
Talonflame is only good for 2 things: guaranteed tailwind and strong priority. If you don't need either of those things then it's actually pretty bad. It rarely attacks more than twice in a game, and even when it does it's not entirely strong unless it's hitting super effectively. If you look at everything else in Tier 1, there are really just 2 things (Amoonguss and Jirachi) that it outright beats. The others are either damage trades (usually not in Talonflame's favor) or objectively poor matchups. While the priority Brave Bird and Tailwind are obviously great, but after that Talonflame's utility nose dives and I really don't think it's fit to be called a top tier pokemon.
Volcanion: 1 -> 1.5
I feel like I'm in the minority here, but I really don't think Volcanion is that good. I think it's respectable, but it competes hardcore with Heatran for a slot. When I compare Heatran and Volcanion, the only reasons I can see to run Volcanion are to not die to Azumarill Aqua Jet (even though it still dies to Knock Off/Return) and a slightly less bad matchup vs Landorus even though it still mostly loses to Landorus. Its stats aren't amazing and its typing gives it a lot of weaknesses to common types.
Azumarill: 1.5 -> 1
This thing is pretty much threat #1 in this metagame, and I'm really surprised it isn't in tier 1. It has the potential to OHKO every Pokemon in tier 1 after a Belly Drum and it's stupid easy to support with stuff like Jirachi + Fake Out. If you can stop Belly Drum it's obviously less threatening, but so far stopping Belly Drum isn't something players in this tier have mastered, myself included. Just looking at the description of Tier 1.5, Azumarill is almost never deadweight, has positive matchups vs a lot of Tier 1, and isn't specifically used to check one team style.
Gengar: 1.5 -> 2
Gengar is one of those pokemon that does 1 thing and only 1 thing well, and that's check Kangaskhan...except it really isn't even great at doing that. It gets completely shut down by Thundurus or any other Taunt/priority user, and it's very very easy to eliminate due to its insane frailty. I'm not as passionate about this one since I guess it can technically beat stuff like Gardevoir or Aegislash under the right conditions, but I personally think 1.5 is a bit too high for Gengar.
Hoopa-U: 1.5 -> 1
This thing is crazy strong. It can run a variety of sets (Goggles TR, Life Orb TR, Sash TR, Scarf, fast Life Orb) very well, and both of its attacking stats are insanely high. The one thing holding it back (and in my opinion keeping it from reaching broken level) is its pretty poor defense. Even so, it's not too hard to get Hoopa into positions where it can start wailing away. Its complete dominance of Aegislash is pretty noteworthy, as nothing else beats it that comprehensively. Not to mention the fact that you can't protect against its two most common attacks. I think this thing is definitely a candidate for tier 1.
Latios: 1.5 -> 2
I'm trying to come up with an actual reason for this one other than "I just don't think it's that good" but it's hard. You can make the argument that it's one of the best Tailwind setters in the tier and that Life Orb Draco Meteor is some pretty solid neutral damage. It can also KO Kyurem and Hydreigon before they attack and that's good. I just take issue with it's frailty and generally bad matchup vs a lot of the Tier 1 Pokemon, but I guess that's why it was already in 1.5. So nevermind, I guess I like Latios where it is. But I'm leaving this paragraph in the post because dammit I worked hard on it!
Charizard X: 2 -> 3
As much as I love this thing, it's pretty bad. The only teams I've seen it do well on are my stupid Bunnies team and KyleCole's exploding pumpkin team. It struggles against pretty much every popular pokemon, and its damage output isn't fantastic even if it does manage to get a Dragon Dance up uninterrupted.
Ludicolo: 2 -> 3
I honestly see very little reason to use Ludicolo over Kingdra in this tier. Kingdra's damage output is so much greater than Ludicolo's, especially if you're using the standard AV Ludicolo. Life Orb Ludi's damage is bit more respectable but then it dies to a slight breeze passing by. Plus Kingdra has better support options than Ludi. I just don't think these two deserve to be in the same tier at all, and Kingdra certainly shouldn't move up.
Cresselia: 3 -> 2
Ok honestly y'all are crazy if you think Cresselia deserves to be in the same tier as Reuniclus or Blaziken. Cresselia is EASILY the best defensive Pokemon in the metagame, and it can turn itself into an offensive threat with its Calm Mind sets. It's so surprising to me that Cresselia isn't more popular. It has so so so many support options that can be valuable to any team. I'd probably argue to move Cresselia into 1.5 but I suppose we should take it one step at a time.
Zapdos: 3 -> 2
Zapdos is basically Thundurus without Prankster and with more bulk and more moves. When comparing the two I would agree that Thundurus is clearly better, but Zapdos is still a great alternative if the team would benefit more from Tailwind than Thunder Wave. Zapdos also checks Kangaskhan and Landorus better than Thundurus can with Static and Roost, and access to Heat Wave can be valuable as well. Not that I'd consider this set good, but the surprise Scarf set has proven somewhat effective whenever I've used it, so it has that facet to it as well.
Mega Abomasnow: 4 -> 3
Mega Abomasnow actually has a decent matchup against a lot of the top Pokemon, most notably genies and Azumarill. I don't think it should be any higher than 3 because its checks are pretty common, but it has a pretty strong 100% accurate spread move in Blizzard, which isn't something to scoff at. If you support it well enough and get it into Trick Room, it can be a pretty strong threat.
So yeah those are my thoughts. I think a lot of the stuff in tier 4 doesn't really deserved to be called viable but that's probably a lot of opinion and would depend on the definition of viable so I won't go into that for now.
OH bisharp. bisharp is terrible drop it to 3. pretty much agree with what check just said.
goddamnit I just took the replays from kyle >_>kylecole said:
But beside that
even if it needs some support (and it can set up on his own in front of -1 lando, -2 latios, heatran, rachi, etc.), once it sets up, it's very hard to stop. you need to apply consistent offense pressure which isn't easy for most teams. it's the face of the metagame, people can't stop it easily,
it's also not deadweight when it doesn't bd
Azumarill to Tier 1 :D
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Fake Out and redirection are pretty much universal support options for the majority of teams in this format, as they have a ton of utility besides supporting Azu. Azu isn't good ONLY IF these options are on a team, Azu is good BECAUSE these options are extremely common.
No, Azu is only good with these options. If we were to ban follow me and rage powder tomorrow you would see an insane decrease in azumarill use, while as almost every other top tier mon would still be sitting right where it is. It's simply only good if provided the ample amounts support it requires. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, as most teams appreciate redirection and fake out whether they have azumarill or not, but no other mon relies so much on it as azu does.
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