This isn't a discussion about its tiering, and both Nattorei and Skarmory can counter the choice sets, which are the most popular and arguably the most effective. Also, having no counters doesn't necessarily make it Uber.
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Garchomp
- Thread starter Rising_Dusk
- Start date
BTW if Garchomp does invest its defenses to match Mixpert's, it's only 15-20% weaker than an Impish 252 / 252 Nattorei on the physical side, and about 5-10% weaker on the special side. Pretty impressive compared to 5th Gen's premier tank considering the same Garchomp outspeeds neutral heatran and has 298 ATK (and STAB Dragon Tail and Earthquake). Have been messing around with it on a stall-bulky offensive team, and it really screws teams over when combined with spikes.
Still annoyed that Rough Skin and SR are incompatible. :/
Still annoyed that Rough Skin and SR are incompatible. :/
Why would you ever even run Rough Skin?You have to realize that even if you don't carry Sand, most likely your opponent will and for that reason Sand Veil should always be used.It can win a game..As long as Doryuuzu remains in OU so will sand so Saind Veil should be the only choice of ability and is in fact the greatest asset Garchomp has over any Dragon...It may seem like i am exaggerating but i am not.This metagame will be dominated by sand and Garchomp is the only Dragon that can take advantage of it..When people stop using Doryuuzu and Tyranitar(like thats going to happen) then you run Rough Skin.
He explained why he'd want to use Rough Skin over Sand Veil in his post. When combined with other residual damage like Spikes, it does a good deal of damage. Keep in mind that his idea was for a more defensive Garchomp, not a sweeping one. Rough Skin > Sand Veil for that situation.
I actually knew that.The thing is that Sand Veil is,in my opinion, the thing that places Garchomp above all other Dragons.I understood he was going with a defensive set but even then i think Sand Veil is a better option since the dominace of sand.A defensive set would benefit more with Sand Veil considering that Garchomp can't heal himself and in sand is an instant plus one evasion..That is no gimick, that is a chance to stop any sweeper conbined with Dragon Tail.
What i am saying is that Sand Veil should be used in every set and even more so in a defensive set for the chances of a free turn an not losing HP..As long as Doryuuzu remains OU,so should Sand Veil as the primary choice.
Blightbringer
Banned deucer.
You've gotta be joking if you believe Sand Veil is what makes Garchomp what it is. Its incredible dual-STAB, SR resistance, SS immunity, unique speed tier, and great bulk make it, not a situational ability like Sand Veil.
sand veil is one of the things that makes garchomp what it is.
sand veil is a VERY good ability that has a good chance of lending you the hand of victory.
The set in question:
Garchomp
Impish
176 HP / 8 ATK / 176 DEF / 92 Sp.DEF / 56 SPEED
Resulting stats: 401 HP / 298 ATK / 297 DEF / 176 sp.ATK / 229 DEF / 254 SPEED
@Leftovers
Sand Veil
-Stealth Rock
-Dragon Tail
-Earthquake
-Protect
Ever try taking down a Protect Mixpert? One of the most annoying things about Mixpert compared to other bulky water types was that it got leftovers recovery in sand. Garchomp obviously benefits similarly. Unlike mixpert though, thanks to Dragon Tail, it can abuse its awesome STAB coverage with 2 offensive moves while also being able to abuse Protect, SR and Phazing all on the same set. Few common Substitute users make substitutes that can stand up to Garchomp's Dragon Tail (though a Sub-Balloon Heatran could be annoying), which also knocks through Taunt. It's really annoying in other words.
Looking at the stats, 298 ATK is good (especially for only 8 EVs), but it's not going to be destroying much. Free turns from Sand Veil don't "win games" when you hit so weak. To give an idea, Dragon Tail does only 65.6% - 77.5% to offensive Latios.
Though, I could see missing being extremely frustrating when you get Dragon Tail'd out without doing anything and have to take another round of Spikes/SR damage before coming in again . . .
Well the point is moot with Rough Skin being illegal with SR. I guess you could replace SR with Toxic and use Rough Skin / Rugged Helmet if you have another SR user.
Garchomp
Impish
176 HP / 8 ATK / 176 DEF / 92 Sp.DEF / 56 SPEED
Resulting stats: 401 HP / 298 ATK / 297 DEF / 176 sp.ATK / 229 DEF / 254 SPEED
@Leftovers
Sand Veil
-Stealth Rock
-Dragon Tail
-Earthquake
-Protect
Ever try taking down a Protect Mixpert? One of the most annoying things about Mixpert compared to other bulky water types was that it got leftovers recovery in sand. Garchomp obviously benefits similarly. Unlike mixpert though, thanks to Dragon Tail, it can abuse its awesome STAB coverage with 2 offensive moves while also being able to abuse Protect, SR and Phazing all on the same set. Few common Substitute users make substitutes that can stand up to Garchomp's Dragon Tail (though a Sub-Balloon Heatran could be annoying), which also knocks through Taunt. It's really annoying in other words.
Looking at the stats, 298 ATK is good (especially for only 8 EVs), but it's not going to be destroying much. Free turns from Sand Veil don't "win games" when you hit so weak. To give an idea, Dragon Tail does only 65.6% - 77.5% to offensive Latios.
Though, I could see missing being extremely frustrating when you get Dragon Tail'd out without doing anything and have to take another round of Spikes/SR damage before coming in again . . .
Well the point is moot with Rough Skin being illegal with SR. I guess you could replace SR with Toxic and use Rough Skin / Rugged Helmet if you have another SR user.
I dind't say that.Best typing,amazing speed aside, Sand Veil is the thing that makes Garchomp the best Dragon as of right now.He is better than Latios,Latias,Onokusu,Flygon,Sazandora,Salamence,Dragonite,Kyruume(?) and even Altaria.Sand Veil puts him above all other Dragons..Do you understand why?In a metagame dominated by sweeping Dorryuzus and Tyranitar/sand, Garchomp's Sand Veil allows it to work with this trend and fit right in there.The Metagame itself makes Garchomp the best right now because of Sand Veil.You have to play Sand Veil always because if you don't then might aswell choose another Dragon since Sand Veil allows Garchomp to perfectly fit.
I'm not saying that Garchomp can do everything better than these Dragons.I'm sure Latias is a better Choice Specs user, what i am saying is that Garchomp is the best Dragon right now because of the dominace of Sand and the ability to win any game with just a little luck.
Sand Veil is what makes Garchomp the best Dragon at this point and as long as Tyranitar/Doryuuzu rule there is no reason to ever run Rough Skin even on a bulky set.
Sand Veil is not what makes Garchomp fit into the metagame-- SR resistance, Sand immunity and lack of weaknesses to Pursuit and U-Turn are what put Garchomp above those other dragons in terms of metagame. It also is immune to thunderwave, and causes Volt Change to fail.
There really are no holes in its scaly armor, where as almost all the other dragons have issues with at least one of the above metagame hazards.
For instance, Garchomp only comes out ahead of Flygon because of its base stats. If Flygon had the same power, bulk and speed as Garchomp, I'd definitely pick Flygon with its Levitate (And thus immunity to spikes/t-spikes) and U-Turn.
There really are no holes in its scaly armor, where as almost all the other dragons have issues with at least one of the above metagame hazards.
For instance, Garchomp only comes out ahead of Flygon because of its base stats. If Flygon had the same power, bulk and speed as Garchomp, I'd definitely pick Flygon with its Levitate (And thus immunity to spikes/t-spikes) and U-Turn.
Again, it's not Sand Veil that distinguishes Chomp from other dragons, it's its speed, attack, access to Swords Dance, and STAB EQ, while having few weaknesses, a resistance to Stealth Rock, and immunity to Thunder Wave. Can any other dragon claim those? Those particular traits make it hit harder than any other dragon on the physical side outside of Ononokusu, while retaining that trolly 102 base speed, and also being able to hit much harder with its STAB Earthquake, allowing it to KO many pokemon without locking itself into Outrage, like other Dragons such as Salamence and Ononokusu have to do.
I said, Speed and Typing aside, Sand Veil is what places Garchomp above every other Dragon.The Typing and speed are alot of it, but really like the poster above said it is Sand Veil that seals the deal.
If mostly everyone is playing sand, Garchomps' Sand Veil ability seperates him from the other Dragons and puts him above them all because he himself becomes that much better.If everyone is playing sand, than you have to run Sand Veil because it is the thing that makes Garchomp without question the best Dragon right now.And like i said,his speed and typing make him able to stand up with the best, however it is his ability that pushes him higher than the others.
Get it?He himself is already amazing, but so is Latios and Latias and Salamence, they however cannot take advantage of the metagame like Garchomp can, and that pushes him above them.
Sand veil isn't that much of a big deal. It basically allows you do get past a check/counter every once in a while.
Practically all OU dragon have abilities that take advantage of the metagame. Sand veil is already discussed. Intimidate hits on the physically oriented meta while levitate abuses the popularity of EQ.
If I could, I would much rather have intimidate on chomp, to better abuse it's bulk and act as a makeshift wall against some threats, as well as having an easier time setting up. But it doesn't have intimidate, so I'm content with 102 speed and dragon/ground typing.
Practically all OU dragon have abilities that take advantage of the metagame. Sand veil is already discussed. Intimidate hits on the physically oriented meta while levitate abuses the popularity of EQ.
If I could, I would much rather have intimidate on chomp, to better abuse it's bulk and act as a makeshift wall against some threats, as well as having an easier time setting up. But it doesn't have intimidate, so I'm content with 102 speed and dragon/ground typing.
Sand Veil is an awesome ability. Yes, it's probably better it had intimidate, but intimidate is one of the best abilities in the game.
However, I, and probably everyone who has ever faced a Garchomp, knows exactly what it is like to have your last gasp of beating Garchomp miss and proceed to lose the match.
Intimidate is good for forcing a switch so you can set up, but Sand Veil means that once you're set up, you can claw a victory out from nothing. Sand Veil isn't the only thing separating Garchomp from other dragons - it's typing and STABS are truly amazing and resisted by only a handful of stuff (which is easily taken care of by a Magnezone, I might add ;) ).
It's a combination of all these things which makes Garchomp still the most powerful and dangerous dragon in OU, IMO.
However, I, and probably everyone who has ever faced a Garchomp, knows exactly what it is like to have your last gasp of beating Garchomp miss and proceed to lose the match.
Intimidate is good for forcing a switch so you can set up, but Sand Veil means that once you're set up, you can claw a victory out from nothing. Sand Veil isn't the only thing separating Garchomp from other dragons - it's typing and STABS are truly amazing and resisted by only a handful of stuff (which is easily taken care of by a Magnezone, I might add ;) ).
It's a combination of all these things which makes Garchomp still the most powerful and dangerous dragon in OU, IMO.
Essentially, imagine Garchomp with Levitate?
Imagine Garchomp with Earthquake Spiral? (Why didn't it get that anyway?)
Imagine Garchomp with Intimidate, or Multiscale?
I'd say the other dragons have arguably better abilities.
Imagine Garchomp with Earthquake Spiral? (Why didn't it get that anyway?)
Imagine Garchomp with Intimidate, or Multiscale?
I'd say the other dragons have arguably better abilities.
Very well said.
Overall, Levitate,Sand Throw and Intimidate are all better abilities than Sand Veil, but that doesn't make it a bad ability.In fact it is a great ability.Everyone here probably has either won or lost a game because of this so we all know how it works.The thing is that San Veil is far from a gimick or for noobs..It is a legitimate ability same as Intimidate or Levitate.Sand Veil takes absolutely no effort from the Garchomp user.Hell, you don't even need to run sand in your team and it is still more useful than Rough Skin.That is because Sands' dominace and like i said it takes no effort.It is not Double Team where you waste a turn, it is automatic.You do nothing and it can win you the game.Same reason why Speed Boost Blaziken is better than Infernape, it takes no effort to be instantly more threatening and game winning.While it has a small chance of working,that chance is still there.And any real battler knows that anything that inproves your chances of winning is great.
That is why Sand Veil is an amazing ability right now.No effort and most likely it will be active even if you don't run Tyranitar.
^USE SPACES AFTER FULL STOPS. asdfghjkl
Sand Veil is 'eh'. It's annoying, but I don't consider it a game-changer like Intimidate, Levitate or even Multiscale.
Sand Veil is 'eh'. It's annoying, but I don't consider it a game-changer like Intimidate, Levitate or even Multiscale.
Garchomp is not ahead of the other dragons by leaps and bounds now the way it was in Gen IV. It has its specific niches among the selectable dragons players consider when filling in their party slots. Garchomp was primarily undisputed champion of all Dragon types in Gen IV because the environment it thrived in allowed it to excel, primarily due to A) not enough threats equivalently important to compete or threaten Garchomp (i.e. Latios/Latias banned, unique speed tier surpassed by less Pokemon, et cetera) and B) many common OU Pokemon were easily disposed of by Garchomp, while at the same time complimenting the use of Garchomp on teams (i.e. Heatran, Tyranitar, et cetera).
When we talk about what makes Garchomp "better" than say, Ononokusu, Sanzadora, or Latios, what we're really asking is how does Garchomp increase my odds of consistently winning by comparison to other said dragons?
With this in consideration, it is clear to see that with abilities like Levitate (Latios/Latias/Flygon), or Rivalry/Moldbreaker (Ononokusu), or Intimidate (Salamence), these help to compliment the Pokemon in question, and help improve the players chances of coming out on top, because they can be reliable attributes that the player can use in a given match.
Garchomp isn't "good" because of Sand Veil, but it also isn't "better" than any of the others due to Sand Veil because Sand Veil is a conditional ability that can't consistently improve the players odds. If you need any more proof of this, ask yourself why Gliscor isn't used more comparatively to other sandstorm contestants (even in Gen IV, where sandstorm was just as prevalent and there was less competition for Gliscor).
Sand Veil is only good because it circumvents Evasion Clause and allows for free turns and consequently free victories in a metagame where skill is used as the ideal measure from player to player. You won't ladder well relying on it, it just single handedly flips the advantage from time to time.
EDIT: Also, Chou Toshio, I love that Garchomp set. I'll have to try it out.
When we talk about what makes Garchomp "better" than say, Ononokusu, Sanzadora, or Latios, what we're really asking is how does Garchomp increase my odds of consistently winning by comparison to other said dragons?
With this in consideration, it is clear to see that with abilities like Levitate (Latios/Latias/Flygon), or Rivalry/Moldbreaker (Ononokusu), or Intimidate (Salamence), these help to compliment the Pokemon in question, and help improve the players chances of coming out on top, because they can be reliable attributes that the player can use in a given match.
Garchomp isn't "good" because of Sand Veil, but it also isn't "better" than any of the others due to Sand Veil because Sand Veil is a conditional ability that can't consistently improve the players odds. If you need any more proof of this, ask yourself why Gliscor isn't used more comparatively to other sandstorm contestants (even in Gen IV, where sandstorm was just as prevalent and there was less competition for Gliscor).
Sand Veil is only good because it circumvents Evasion Clause and allows for free turns and consequently free victories in a metagame where skill is used as the ideal measure from player to player. You won't ladder well relying on it, it just single handedly flips the advantage from time to time.
EDIT: Also, Chou Toshio, I love that Garchomp set. I'll have to try it out.
garchomp can definitely get the job done without sand veil. its just another nice addition to his already impressive feats.
but it think this gen sand veil will be more useful then ever because of what others brought out, the fact that sand will be up alot more now.
garchomp can actually be a good counter(not the best counter) to sand teams because of his ability. imagine coming in on a doryuzuu, him missing his EQ then you hit him back with a fire fang/outrage.
but it think this gen sand veil will be more useful then ever because of what others brought out, the fact that sand will be up alot more now.
garchomp can actually be a good counter(not the best counter) to sand teams because of his ability. imagine coming in on a doryuzuu, him missing his EQ then you hit him back with a fire fang/outrage.
Considering Doryuuzu has no business taking on Garchomp 1v1 withouth a +2 Sword Dance boost, and the fact that "counters" are at the very least reliable methods of dealing with specific threats, I would say that's a rather far-fetched statement.
GARchomp can't really counter Doryuuzu. Even the fastest ScarfChomp can't outspeed, and it isn't going to take +2 EQs very well.
It does help when idiots use Rock Slide on me, though. :/
It does help when idiots use Rock Slide on me, though. :/
You could make a Garchomp set for the express purpose of countering Doryuuzu (a really bulky one with Aqua Tail), but I think then that's all it'd be able to do. >_>
